Can I connect PoE switches to both the main router and mesh node?

[Kantastic]

Hey guys, it's been a while. No matter where life takes me, I always end up back here when I need help with tech stuff. I know little to nothing about networking, but I do know how to Google and that has served me well up to this point in life. I'm trying to figure out if I can setup my home network to run a few outdoor PoE security cameras. My current wireless security camera system (TP-Link Tapo) is not ideal and constantly disconnects. The wireless signal from my AiMesh home WiFi just isn't strong enough to penetrate the exterior brick walls. I've scoped the house and planned out what I think is a feasible option, but I need to know if what I want to do even works.

CCTVs <--- PoE switch <--- main router <---> mesh node ---> PoE switch ---> CCTVs

The mesh system in question is two Asus GT-AX11000 routers.

The question I have is the bolded portion of the diagram above. Would I be able to connect an unmanaged PoE switch to each the router and the node, connect cameras to both of the switches, and have it be pretty much plug & play?

 

[Vincero]

Yes you could / should be able to do that.

 

[Kantastic]

Yes you could / should be able to do that.

Thank you! Would it matter if the router and mesh node are running on wired backhaul vs wireless backhaul if the connection between the two are solid? That would save me the trouble of having to run a 70ft CAT6 cable across the roof to connect the two units.

 

[Vincero]

Thank you! Would it matter if the router and mesh node are running on wired backhaul vs wireless backhaul if the connection between the two are solid? That would save me the trouble of having to run a 70ft CAT6 cable across the roof to connect the two units.

Well that depends on signal strength and available bandwidth across that link. H.264 streams from most IP cameras top out at maybe 8Mb/s but usually average and have peaks much below that (in theory H.265 should be better) so it's likely any reasonable connection between the main router and mesh repeater will likely have no issues carrying that load (even 11g is capable of handling that without breaking a sweat) - although be aware of the limitations of 'mesh' Wifi - you will have bandwidth limitations on the data rate between the main and mesh router so any other devices that may absorb a lot of that available bandwidth could be an issue.

 

[eidairaman1]

10 years ago poe adapters were available, they were meant to be plugged into the wall directly, not a power strip, I'm unaware if that still holds true as I haven't used them since 2014.

 

[Vincero]

10 years ago poe adapters were available, they were meant to be plugged into the wall directly, not a power strip, I'm unaware if that still holds true as I haven't used them since 2014.

PoE injectors (proper ones that adhere to the spec) are still a thing. Alternatively the 'PoE' splitters that allow you to use the original camera PSU and send it along the CAT5 / 2-pairs power with 2-pairs for data can be used, although some cameras now don't come with PSUs expecting you to use PoE (real PoE spec - although they may still work with 12V / splitter cables if they have a DC in port).

Although PoE switches (low port count and sub 50W) are getting pretty cheap (depending on your location) and offer more than 1 port... even if not using all the ports for POE use I could see how they could be more useful (and some offer features that auto-restart ports / attached devices, etc.).

 

[Kantastic]

I spent yesterday doing some browsing and suddenly realized that it may be smarter to try and run everything off one switch. I assume doing so would decrease the amount of possible points of failure, and it would make life easier to just run some long CAT6 cables across the house. I'm quite out of my element here so I thought it might be helpful if I explained a bit more about what I'm trying to accomplish.

My current setup includes a 3-unit mesh system connected via wireless backhaul and a bunch of outdoor security cameras powered by (definitely not outdoor rated) DC adapters and (also definitely not outdoor rated) DC cable extensions all plugged into existing outdoor electrical outlets:

http://imgur.com/a/KtNctch

As you can imagine, nothing really works great. The middle mesh node fluctuates between OK, weak, and great connection to the main router. The signal at the far corners of the basement isn't reliable (devices are measuring less than -75dBm). The outdoor cameras constantly disconnect and reconnect because wireless signals aren't strong enough to penetrate the brick walls. There's also probably too much interference going on inside and outside. I live in NYC so you can imagine pretty much all bands are congested all the time. Having dealt with this for long enough, I've decided to try and setup a hardwired network, remove the middle node, add 2 more nodes to the far corners of the basement, and replace the existing wireless cameras with PoE models.

The idea is to hardwire 3x Asus AiMesh nodes to the primary router via an unmanaged outdoor PoE switch so that I have complete interior wireless coverage, and run PoE outdoor security cameras off that same switch. All cable runs pretty much have to be done outside of the house. My current plan is to just run a ton of outdoor rated CAT6 cables across the roof of the house and drop them down the exterior walls as needed (to connect the routers).

This is what I thought I would do.

http://imgur.com/a/2tddTQi

This is another idea that I came up with after realizing it may be more practical to connect as much as possible to the main router using just one unmanaged outdoor PoE switch.

http://imgur.com/a/kklwEoh

This is the unmanaged outdoor PoE switch that I found. The only question is that the description says there are only two uplink ports (10/100/1000Mbps) to connect routers, whereas I would need to connect 3 routers. It does also mention two BT POE++ ports (1000Mbps) but I'm not sure if I can connect a router to the BT ports. Edit: Could I connect one mesh node (2nd floor) directly to the router and the other 2 mesh nodes (basement) to the uplink ports?

Relevant information for those wondering why I'm trying to do things ass backwards:

* The house is a 100+ year old semi-detached duplex w/ a brick exterior. I only have access to my side, meaning 3 walls (front, back, and one side).
* There is no existing wiring for ethernet or coaxial cables.
* I want to keep the amount of exterior-interior drilling at a minimum. The proposed diagrams would use/repurpose existing holes and use existing outdoor electrical outlets.
* I don't plan to run anything inside conduit unless there are very compelling reasons to do so. Just thinking about securing the tubing, the conduit boxes, the various types of fittings I would need, getting multiple CAT6 cables through long spans of tubing, navigating bends, etc gives me a massive headache. I want to keep it simple.

Is any of what I proposed practical and feasible? Or is this all just a pipe dream? Is this something best left for professionals? For what it's worth, I'll be a happy camper if whatever I do lasts me a few years.

 

[Vincero]

OK,
The 'BT' ports relate to 802.3bt which allows for higher power output PoE (compared to 802.3af/t). Generally speaking you can connect PoE and non-PoE devices to a PoE port - depending on the modes supported by the device and switch, certain ports can do only 10/100 or 10/100/1000 rates with PoE (doing 1Gb/s with PoE requires all 4 pairs for bi-directional data and carrying power so needs additional design capability for those ports so it imposes a cost/benefit limit).
The fact they've coupled the 'bt' ports with the ability to push 1Gb/s ethernet speed is good for powering another endspan device from it (e.g. another PoE powered switch or high power WiFi AP), but lousy in terms of connecting additional 1Gb/s devices other than using the uplink ports - everything else is just 100Mb/s which is fine for an IP cam (or even most average internet use).
Unless there is something special going on with the switch, the uplink ports are likely no different in terms of how they treat general Ethernet data - they are just marked uplink due to having the higher bandwidth capability and no PoE functionality - you could more than likely uplink / connect to another switch on the other ports without an issue.

Do you have loft / roof access? What height are the cameras being installed at (and securing cabling for that matter)?

 

[Kantastic]

OK,
The 'BT' ports relate to 802.3bt which allows for higher power output PoE (compared to 802.3af/t). Generally speaking you can connect PoE and non-PoE devices to a PoE port - depending on the modes supported by the device and switch, certain ports can do only 10/100 or 10/100/1000 rates with PoE (doing 1Gb/s with PoE requires all 4 pairs for bi-directional data and carrying power so needs additional design capability for those ports so it imposes a cost/benefit limit).
The fact they've coupled the 'bt' ports with the ability to push 1Gb/s ethernet speed is good for powering another endspan device from it (e.g. another PoE powered switch or high power WiFi AP), but lousy in terms of connecting additional 1Gb/s devices other than using the uplink ports - everything else is just 100Mb/s which is fine for an IP cam (or even most average internet use).
Unless there is something special going on with the switch, the uplink ports are likely no different in terms of how they treat general Ethernet data - they are just marked uplink due to having the higher bandwidth capability and no PoE functionality - you could more than likely uplink / connect to another switch on the other ports without an issue.

Do you have loft / roof access? What height are the cameras being installed at (and securing cabling for that matter)?

Good to know I can (most likely) power all 3 mesh nodes from the switch. Is there a reason the BT ports aren't also advertised as 10/100/1000 and instead just 1000? I would have thought if it was capable of 1000 it would also be capable of 10/100. Please do let me know if you have any recommendations for another switch.

I may be getting my construction terms mixed up but there is no attic or crawl space of any sort. There's a ladder leading up to a small hatch that opens up onto the roof, and when I say roof I mean outside/on top of the house. The cameras are being installed between 10-12ft high. I have my current cameras mounted on junction boxes so I'd likely do the same for the new cameras. I would probably just ziptie the cables together on the roof and then route and fasten the cables running downwards with cable clips. I don't live in a high crime rate area so I'm not too concerned about someone cutting the cables and deactivating my cameras. The cameras are less for security and more for monitoring.

 

[Vincero]

Good to know I can (most likely) power all 3 mesh nodes from the switch. Is there a reason the BT ports aren't also advertised as 10/100/1000 and instead just 1000? I would have thought if it was capable of 1000 it would also be capable of 10/100. Please do let me know if you have any recommendations for another switch.

No idea why they don't say it does all three rates but its unlikely it just does 1000Mbit only (its possible but unlikely as that allows for zero fallback in case of an issue - not very useful).
I don't have recommendations for a switch, but I will say it's hard to know how good/bad some of these off-brand switches are - you're in a different market to me so I get a different set of off-brand cheapo stuff - the usual suspects have various options (e.g. TP-Link, Netgear, Mercusys, etc.) and Amazon will sell you all of those and many others you've never heard of usually using some random assortment of alphabet characters to make up a name.

Generally I can't say I'm a fan of outdoor network equipment particularly if its hard to reach - as per your image, if you have 2 main groups of cameras I'd personally have 2 seperate PoE switches both connecting back to the main switch/router so neither is a point of failure - I've seen more PoE switch failures (including the likes of Cisco PoE switches) than normal switches (although that's still like 90%+ working fine after x years).

The cameras are being installed between 10-12ft high. I have my current cameras mounted on junction boxes so I'd likely do the same for the new cameras. I would probably just ziptie the cables together on the roof and then route and fasten the cables running downwards with cable clips. I don't live in a high crime rate area so I'm not too concerned about someone cutting the cables and deactivating my cameras. The cameras are less for security and more for monitoring.

How many cameras are you talking about here (that does impact the power capability the switch will need)?
Are the existing cameras IP/Ethernet or Coax connected? If Coax is each camera running its own coax cable to a point or are they multiplexed in some way? Can you feed ethernet cable in place of the coax?

 

[Kantastic]

Generally I can't say I'm a fan of outdoor network equipment particularly if its hard to reach - as per your image, if you have 2 main groups of cameras I'd personally have 2 seperate PoE switches both connecting back to the main switch/router so neither is a point of failure - I've seen more PoE switch failures (including the likes of Cisco PoE switches) than normal switches (although that's still like 90%+ working fine after x years).


How many cameras are you talking about here (that does impact the power capability the switch will need)?
Are the existing cameras IP/Ethernet or Coax connected? If Coax is each camera running its own coax cable to a point or are they multiplexed in some way? Can you feed ethernet cable in place of the coax?

Your assumption about having 2 main groups of cameras is correct. The plan is 4 in the front and 4 in the back. Having 2 switches would reduce the amount of CAT6 cables running across my roof from 9 to 6 which is negligible from a labor perspective. The reason I favor having a single switch in the because that switch would be installed on the balcony in the front of the house. If that single switch fails, I can walk out onto the balcony in pajamas and replace it in a few minutes assuming the cables are unaffected. With a 2 switch setup, if the switch on the back of the house fails then I would need a ladder to access.

I guess this would be a decision between whether I want to have one easily accessible switch but risk all of the cameras going down if the switch fails, or one very difficult to access switch but only 4 out of 8 cameras going down if the back switch fails.

I currently have 6 cameras but the plan is to have 8 total. The existing cameras are Tp-Link Tapo cameras powered by a DC brick that is plugged into two outdoor electrical sockets (one in the front on the balcony, one in the back high up on the wall) and data is purely through WiFi. They are not PoE-capable so if I were to keep them then I would need to connect them via ethernet while also keeping the DC power cables. That isn't the end of the world but what concerns me the most is that the DC cables are not outdoor-rated and currently exposed to the elements and are likely the greatest point of failure if something were to fail. I was unable to find outdoor-rated DC cables when I installed the Tapo cameras.

I'm eyeing Reolink cameras on Amazon and based on Reolink's website the models I want draw <12W each.

 

[Vincero]

You can find some cables which are 'outdoor' rated - they usually have thicker outer PVC insulation to protect them a little more - ideally it should state it being UV resistant.
Alternatively you could always run some flexible conduit some of the way to protect them from sun, wind, annoying birds, etc.
Old school thinking used to suggest black cable was better as the carbon black element was more UV stable but generally UV stabilisers make the colour sort of redundant - depending on the house you can try to get a colour that better matches the brick (or just go black) to stand out less.

In terms of power use the 200W+ power capability would be more than enough. Realistically any PoE switch with a max combined power over 100W should be fine - aiming to have some extra power margin is no bad thing as it allows for replacement power hungrier devices without suddenly needing to swap the switch, and also means the switch power supply is easily working within its limits.

I'm surprised you don't have some other way to send cable for the wireless APs other than outside the house to get to basement/top floor - not a criticism - the amount of openings that can be exploited from central heating pipe / duct holes, conduit leading behind walls, voids with pipes running up the building, etc. (whatever applies), wherever they are but which are usually accessible/exploitable more easily from the basement are usually quite useful in these situations.... So long as basement conversions and decorators haven't covered them up, etc.

 

[eidairaman1]

PoE injectors (proper ones that adhere to the spec) are still a thing. Alternatively the 'PoE' splitters that allow you to use the original camera PSU and send it along the CAT5 / 2-pairs power with 2-pairs for data can be used, although some cameras now don't come with PSUs expecting you to use PoE (real PoE spec - although they may still work with 12V / splitter cables if they have a DC in port).

Although PoE switches (low port count and sub 50W) are getting pretty cheap (depending on your location) and offer more than 1 port... even if not using all the ports for POE use I could see how they could be more useful (and some offer features that auto-restart ports / attached devices, etc.).

My mistake i was thinking of EOP adapters to have a data signal in homes without cat5/coax6(hpna) and would be restricted due to design of attics or HOA not allowing external wire runs.

 

[Vincero]

HOA

We don't tolerate that sort of language here.

Power line Ethernet is an option but then he'd have to drill a hole for cabling to go outside which I'm guessing is preferable to avoid - and you'd still need to power the cameras...

 

[eidairaman1]

We don't tolerate that sort of language here.

Power line Ethernet is an option but then he'd have to drill a hole for cabling to go outside which I'm guessing is preferable to avoid.

What Home Owners Association?

 

[Vincero]

What Home Owners Association?

Yeah - I jest of course, but for some I can imagine the immediate negative reaction is justifiable.

 

[Kantastic]

You can find some cables which are 'outdoor' rated - they usually have thicker outer PVC insulation to protect them a little more - ideally it should state it being UV resistant.
Alternatively you could always run some flexible conduit some of the way to protect them from sun, wind, annoying birds, etc.
Old school thinking used to suggest black cable was better as the carbon black element was more UV stable but generally UV stabilisers make the colour sort of redundant - depending on the house you can try to get a colour that better matches the brick (or just go black) to stand out less.

I'm surprised you don't have some other way to send cable for the wireless APs other than outside the house to get to basement/top floor - not a criticism - the amount of openings that can be exploited from central heating pipe / duct holes, conduit leading behind walls, voids with pipes running up the building, etc. (whatever applies), wherever they are but which are usually accessible/exploitable more easily from the basement are usually quite useful in these situations.... So long as basement conversions and decorators haven't covered them up, etc.

I will definitely be using outdoor rated cables. The ethernet cable will be the only part of this network that is exposed to the elements. It would likely be the most concerning point of failure of the entire whacky system. The outdoor switch is weatherproof but I can double protect it by placing it in an additional outdoor weatherproof box if necessary.

As far as exploring other ways of cabling throughout the house, I think I've considered all of my options. There is no existing alternative wiring to pull. The heating in this house is done using water baseboards and the first and second floors are on entirely independent loops. There is also no central air conditioning, with one floor using window units and another floor using ductless mini split units. The second floor is basically completely isolated from the first floor and basement. Even if there was a way to get cabling through existing drywall, I would have no practical way of routing them to where they need to go to even the first floor, let alone the basement. The only way would likely be to drill through ceilings, floors/subfloors, and various patches of drywall but that's a much bigger job than just dropping ethernet cables from the roof to the floor. I was hoping there would be another miracle solution, but I've spent the last few days Googling/YouTubing and can't seem to find any that would work.

There are also no HOAs in my area. It's not really a thing here and I'm personally thankful for that.