Remove POPCNT CPU instruction requirement?

[Whirldisplay]

So, NVIDIA recently removed support for older CPUs not having this. Apparently, this is related to Microsoft themselves removing it in their Windows driver packaging software. Understandable for Windows 11, less so for Windows 10. And I think this decision stems from some AI-related BS feature support.

Logic dictates this is probably impossible (or at least not simple at all), but worth asking anyway for all those users stuck on old systems for various, and mostly valid reasons: Any chance for NVCleanstall to rectify this and undo such a restriction?

EOL Windows driver support for older CPUs without POPCNT instruction:

NVIDIA Support

nvidia.custhelp.com

 

[Dr. Dro]

So, NVIDIA recently removed support for older CPUs not having this. Apparently, this is related to Microsoft themselves removing it in their Windows driver packaging software. Understandable for Windows 11, less so for Windows 10. And I think this originates from some AI-related BS feature support.

Logic dictates this is probably impossible (or at least not simple at all), but worth asking anyway for all those users stuck on old systems for various, and mostly valid reasons: Any chance for NVCleanstall to rectify this and undo such a restriction?

EOL Windows driver support for older CPUs without POPCNT instruction:

NVIDIA Support

nvidia.custhelp.com

Not possible. Furthermore, Windows 11 itself no longer supports these old CPUs as the kernel in 24H2 now requires POPCNT support. Any modern processor manufactured in the past 12 years supports this instruction set (Ivy Bridge and newer, or any of the AMD FX processors), so it's time to retire your Bronze Age flint-powered toaster if you want further updates.

Windows 10 is all but EOL. Don't expect tailored support for it, this is the precise reason why the people thinking they will run LTSC into the 2030s are living in a fantasy world of their own making, and shouldn't be listened to - nor are you expected to run a processor that was already out of date a decade ago.

 

[QuietBob]

While Win10 itself does not require POPCNT, Win11 does, as part of the SSE4.2 instruction set. POPCNT has been around since the first gen Core and the original Phenom. It's hard to imagine anyone using a processor as old as these with Win11 for any practical tasks.

Nvidia stopped supporting CPUs without POPCNT in their current drivers, which in turn support GPUs all the way back to Maxwell on Win11 and 10. Technically, Win10 can be installed on some Athlon 64s/Semprons which pre-date POPCNT, but such configs are unlikely to exist outside of retro enthusiast circles.

Realistically speaking, this recent change is going to affect a marginal number of users, i.e. those on Win10 with AMD CPUs older than the 10h (2007) architecture, paired with a Maxwell GPU or newer. Intel setups will be affected to an even lesser degree, since a Nehelem CPU (2008) -- which supports POPCNT -- is required to install Win10, at minimum anyway.

 

[Dr. Dro]

While Win10 itself does not require POPCNT, Win11 does, as part of the SSE4.2 instruction set. POPCNT has been around since the first gen Core and the original Phenom. It's hard to imagine anyone using a processor as old as these with Win11 for any practical tasks.

Nvidia stopped supporting CPUs without POPCNT in their current drivers, which in turn support GPUs all the way back to Maxwell on Win11 and 10. Technically, Win10 can be installed on some Athlon 64s/Semprons which pre-date POPCNT, but such configs are unlikely to exist outside of retro enthusiast circles.

Realistically speaking, this recent change is going to affect a marginal number of users, i.e. those on Win10 with CPUs older than the Nehelem (2008) and Windsor (2006) architectures.

POPCNT by itself is supported on K10 (despite lack of even SSSE3), but only on Nehalem and newer. The Win11 instruction sets (which include F16C, etc.) should be Ivy minimum. But Ivy is 12, come on...

 

[QuietBob]

The Win11 instruction sets (which include F16C, etc.) should be Ivy minimum

Is F16C formally required by Win11 now?
AFAIK the current minimum is SSE4.2, which has been supported since Nehelem on Intel and Bulldozer on AMD.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Is F16C formally required by Win11 now?
AFAIK the current minimum is SSE4.2, which has been supported since Nehelem on Intel and Bulldozer on AMD.

IIRC, full SSE4.2 + POPCNT support as absolute minimum. F16C is present on all supported CPUs and support is already required by some software which won't start if it's not present.

 

[chrcoluk]

So, NVIDIA recently removed support for older CPUs not having this. Apparently, this is related to Microsoft themselves removing it in their Windows driver packaging software. Understandable for Windows 11, less so for Windows 10. And I think this decision stems from some AI-related BS feature support.

Logic dictates this is probably impossible (or at least not simple at all), but worth asking anyway for all those users stuck on old systems for various, and mostly valid reasons: Any chance for NVCleanstall to rectify this and undo such a restriction?

EOL Windows driver support for older CPUs without POPCNT instruction:

NVIDIA Support

nvidia.custhelp.com

Not a helpful announcement from them, they should probably list the CPUs that are known to be start of the feature support, instead of asking people to run that tool.

I see this is in nvcleanstall section, I be very surprised if wizzard can do anything about it. The drivers are probably compiled with the requirement implemented.

 

[agent_x007]

It should be pointed out, that older GPUs (Pascal/Maxwell) won't lose much from not being able to use latest drivers (at least in the beginning).
Non-POPCNT drivers are fine for current games, so only later on (when "minimum driver version requirement" pops up), they will experience issues.
But will those future games run and be playable on 10Y+ hardware at that point ?

 

[chrcoluk]

It should be pointed out, that older GPUs (Pascal/Maxwell) won't lose much from not being able to use latest drivers (at least in the beginning).
Non-POPCNT drivers are fine for current games, so only later on (when "minimum driver version requirement" pops up), they will experience issues.
But will those future games run and be playable on 10Y+ hardware at that point ?

Yeah, I rarely upgrade my drivers, I know some people do it rigidly, but usually I will only upgrade if there is a major feature/bug fix added I am interested in, or if its because I have to with a GPU upgrade.

 

[Whirldisplay]

Windows 10 is all but EOL. Don't expect tailored support for it, this is the precise reason why the people thinking they will run LTSC into the 2030s are living in a fantasy world of their own making, and shouldn't be listened to - nor are you expected to run a processor that was already out of date a decade ago.

Well, contrary to the unnecessary rant above, Nvidia/Microsoft themselves reverted this. See the original, now updated announcement.

Starting from driver 566.03, the POPCNT requirement is gone. It's not clear yet whether the same will also apply to the Studio drivers. I assume it will.

edit: It looks like this was a Visual Studio bug after all?

 

[QuietBob]

Well, contrary to the unnecessary rant above, Nvidia/Microsoft themselves reverted this. See the original, now updated announcement.

Starting from driver 566.03, the POPCNT requirement is gone. It's not clear yet whether the same will also apply to the Studio drivers. I assume it will.

edit: It looks like this was a Visual Studio bug after all?

Thanks for the update! Those running Win10 on an Athlon 64 with a Maxwell card (or newer) can now rejoice

 

[Whirldisplay]

Currently on a much more powerful CPU than any Athlon 64, with a Pascal card. Not having a party, but it's still good news.

And yes, the hardware should be replaced ASAP. It's still running fine though, and not everyone is a cutting-edge gamer. Occasional retro-gaming (as in 2D) is more than enough for me.

 

[QuietBob]

Currently on a much more powerful CPU than any Athlon 64, with a Pascal card. Not having a party, but it's still good news.

And yes, the hardware should be replaced ASAP. It's still running fine though, and not everyone is a cutting-edge gamer. Occasional retro-gaming (as in 2D) is more than enough for me.

That's cool, I've got a few older rigs myself. In fact, I think my next retro project will be a "minimum requirements" Win10 PC. As in, the absolute slowest config that the OS can be installed on. I already have two such "min reqs" Win7 PCs, and I even use them to browse the web occasionally
Also, typing this from a 12 y.o. machine.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Well, contrary to the unnecessary rant above, Nvidia/Microsoft themselves reverted this. See the original, now updated announcement.

Starting from driver 566.03, the POPCNT requirement is gone. It's not clear yet whether the same will also apply to the Studio drivers. I assume it will.

edit: It looks like this was a Visual Studio bug after all?

That's nice and all, but ultimately it does not really matter, nor was it an unacceptable or unreasonable demand to begin with. Windows 10 is going EOL in less than a year from now. With the end of extended support, it'll be restricted to paid security updates and over time, Nvidia will retire driver support for it entirely.

Blackwell might still be supported on it to some extent, Nvidia tends to be generous with OS support, but I wouldn't expect most of Blackwell's features and the subsequent Rubin architecture GPUs to be supported on anything below Windows 11. Maxwell and Pascal are likely going to be phased out once Blackwell's incorporated into the production branch - so having newer drivers that work with these GPUs is welcome nonetheless.

Windows 11 24H2 has a strict requirement for SSE4.2 support:

x.com

x.com

This means that K10/Barcelona are excluded and you will be required to have a 1st generation Core i7 processor as the absolute bare minimum.

 

[DaemonForce]

Glad to hear it's resolved. The POPCNT issue is stupid and my Athlon 64 doesn't have it.
Anything on nVidia's part encroaching a bare minimum like THIS is just slitting their own throats.
Imagine they start releasing CPUs with this or that instruction level list and you need something $$$$ from them to support multi-GPU.
Do you see the problem here? I'm sure it already went right over their heads.

 

[eidairaman1]

Glad to hear it's resolved. The POPCNT issue is stupid and my Athlon 64 doesn't have it.
Anything on nVidia's part encroaching a bare minimum like THIS is just slitting their own throats.
Imagine they start releasing CPUs with this or that instruction level list and you need something $$$$ from them to support multi-GPU.
Do you see the problem here? I'm sure it already went right over their heads.

I remember in 2007 after COD4 wouldn't run on skt A, well 2 file name changes and I was running it, buttery smooth on an Athlon XP-M 2500, Sapphire Radeon X1950 Pro 512, 2GB Ram, with details cranked to max.

 

[theFOoL]

I remember in 2007 after COD4 wouldn't run on skt A, well 2 file name changes and I was running it, buttery smooth on an Athlon XP-M 2500, Sapphire Radeon X1950 Pro 512, 2GB Ram, with details cranked to max.

Awww those Athlon Days... The memories of Over Clocking

 

[Dr. Dro]

Glad to hear it's resolved. The POPCNT issue is stupid and my Athlon 64 doesn't have it.
Anything on nVidia's part encroaching a bare minimum like THIS is just slitting their own throats.
Imagine they start releasing CPUs with this or that instruction level list and you need something $$$$ from them to support multi-GPU.
Do you see the problem here? I'm sure it already went right over their heads.

Such minimum system requirements are entirely in line with Windows' minimum system requirements, so I wouldn't go that far. Still, a GPU with no drivers is a paperweight, so there's that.

 

[theFOoL]

Such minimum system requirements are entirely in line with Windows' minimum system requirements, so I wouldn't go that far. Still, a GPU with no drivers is a paperweight, so there's that.

I mean... M$ Could make it where GPUs not DirextX 11/12 not on there could make it where it doesn't boot or have the same effect but you know it's Dumb people at M$ not to have that thank God but I don't think that would be possible to do?

 

[DaemonForce]

It's always possible to lock out programs with XYZ instructions but locking out OS boot operation because the CPU doesn't have it is just corpo dick behavior.
I remember a few years ago on Phenom II X4 when there was an update pushed to my favorite game that was basically a patch to the audio spatialization codec.
What happened? Some clown pushed an experimental update with AVX flags. Most VR gamers didn't have AVX instructions and there was screeching from sea to shining sea.
Update was rolled back within a day because of it but you can imagine that it's a pretty fair reaction because most people are going to notice it.
Most people do not notice POPCNT or any of these adjacent agegates.

The good: Overwhelming majority of users (target audience) doesn't notice or suffer the changes and corpo gets less support headaches.
The bad: These lockouts are a phantom encroachment on existing and future product, shaping the market over the way people buy hardware.
The ugly: When updates start to corale users into TOO specific requirements for this and that, multiple systems start to appear instead of all-in-one.
The stupid: We completely lose the plot and anything we care about because while these updates took our attention, all the other updates ruined everything.

I have ONE primary workstation that does everything I need: 6c/12t, 64GB, 8GB vram and 3-way networking. It runs Windows 10 ProWS. When I need to do something, it works.
I have a primary server for storage: 1c/1t, 2GB. A relic that would suffer the POPCNT issue. Doesn't matter because it runs 2016 Server Core. My data goes there.
I also have a backup server to run whatever in case something happens to the above: 4m/8t, 16GB, 2016 Standard. Can do it all, just a little slower and a lot hotter.

The people with POPCNT issues don't have high end hardware. They're on single core systems, 2-4GB ram and are completely miserable on that loadout anyway.
I have never heard screeching about "my cpu is too old to boot Windows" but have heard plenty of reee after someone boots the computer and got upgraded to Win11 without consent.
Not everyone is a computer genius and if you're a creator, you definitely fall into that chaos camp. Microsoft and others need to get gone.
Their ecosystem of dubious and malicious updates are literally destroying everything. POPCNT be damned.

 

[Dr. Dro]

I mean... M$ Could make it where GPUs not DirextX 11/12 not on there could make it where it doesn't boot or have the same effect but you know it's Dumb people at M$ not to have that thank God but I don't think that would be possible to do?

It's not the GPU's feature level, it's Windows itself that doesn't work. 11 24H2 doesn't work on older PCs, and support for anything earlier than 11 is on borrowed time.

 

[theFOoL]

I know that but I was just saying *What if M$ did that with older GPUs lol or even older MB and even RAM Amount. Like on my 775 WIN11 runs fine on 23H2

 

[Whirldisplay]

I confirm the new Studio 566.14 driver installs normally.

The people with POPCNT issues don't have high end hardware. They're on single core systems, 2-4GB ram and are completely miserable on that loadout anyway.

8-core/12GB here. Not high end obviously due to age, but not miserable either.