A problem with USB-C video output from an 8700G.

[Tahagomizer]

Greetings, sorry for a long post.

Premise:
I got a mini PC, Minisforum MS-A1 with an 8700G APU, 32GB of Corsair 5600MHz RAM (running at 5200MHz) and a no-name PCIE4x4 SSD.
It has three video outputs: HDMI, DisplayPort, USB-C.
For now I need to connect two screens to it, one is HDMI-only and one is HDMI/USB-C, but ideally I need all three outputs so it can be my main PC, since I don't really play games any more.

Problem:
Video through USB-C doesn't work at all. The port works as a normal USB, but a connected USB-C portable screen only gets power, no video, no signs of detecting anything in the OS (Win10 Pro and some Linux distros). A normal screen with USB-C input also doesn't see video. Both are DP1.3 and both screens work with my laptop, using the same cable.

Steps taken:
-I tried numerous versions of AMD drivers, both from Minisforum and official AMD,
-Clean installs of Win10 + drivers,
-Linux (Debian, Mint) also doesn't see the screen.
-No relevant options in the BIOS which is very simplistic and barren,
-Minisforum has "USB-C firmware" on their website, which I installed but has no effect. Seemingly it flashes some sort of a Realtek controller firmware,
-I tried threatening the device with various unpleasantries, it didn't budge.

Adding insult to injury: The setup I want works perfectly with a mini-PC using an 8845HS (a mobile version of the same APU), but this damn thing crashes after a minute of any GPU load (driver timeout error, disabling MPO doesn't help, i couldn't figure it out so it's the first layer of trash pile of disappointment).
I found a few people having similar problems with AMD APUs, but no solutions. Is there some kind of arcane, mysterious magic to USB alt-mode on AMD APUs or do I have expensive trash?

Minisforum support is the usual "GTFO support", throwing breadcrumbs to delay people until they give up - they sent me a long list of "troubleshooting steps" like pushing the button to turn the device on, or connecting a keyboard and such.

I'll be grateful for any pointers for getting USB-C display output working, now I have a pile of expensive e-waste and my blood pressure is creeping up. I know, my fault for buying chinesium garbage.
Now I really need another blood pressure pill.

 

[Dr. Dro]

The 8700G itself should be able to drive 4 displays, but it also will depend on how the motherboard itself has been designed. From what I read on NotebookCheck, the MS-A1 can only do its HDMI and DP ports, unless you have the external GPU dock for it.

Not every USB-C port is capable of driving video out, and some will only output DisplayPort format video out and won't work with HDMI converters. For example, the USB-C port on my laptop will connect to the 5600H's Vega graphics and will work with my Elecom USB-C to HDMI adapter, native HDMI wired directly to the RTX 3050, this way it can output graphics to two HDMI displays connected to the two distinct instances of GPUs on the system, but no more than 3 outputs, including the laptop panel. My old MSI Z690 Ace motherboard had an USB-C out, but unlike the laptop, it was very specifically marked that it was only compatible with DisplayPort type outputs and my USB-C adapter doesn't work - seems to be the same as your machine's case.

I found a few people having similar problems with AMD APUs, but no solutions. Is there some kind of arcane, mysterious magic to USB alt-mode on AMD APUs or do I have expensive trash?

Yeah, in this case, I reckon it's the latter. AMD's drivers are an utter mess; but of course, that's just me being biased towards Nvidia

 

[Bill_Bright]

Try a different cable. Not all USB-C cables are alike. Some are of very poor quality but also, some by design, support different functions. For example, I just yesterday went through a frustrating situation trying to transfer photos from my phone to my PC. I plugged in the cable and saw on my phone it was being charged through the USB-C port so I assumed the cable was good. But my computer refused to see the phone as a storage device so I could not see the folder where the pictures were. This was frustrating because I had transferred filed before with no problems.

I tried a different USB port on my computer. Same thing. So I tried another cable. Same thing. Rebooted my computer. Same thing. Rebooted the phone. Same thing. Then I decided to try a 3rd cable and "dump-ditty-dump!" my phone's folder appeared on my computer and I was able to transfer just fine.

I decided to try the first two cables again and same thing - no phone folder.

There are USB-C cables that, by design, are for charging only. This is security purposes so you don't, for example, plug your phone into a public charging port at an airport or coffee shop only to learn later the port has been compromised by a bad guy and now your identity has been stolen.

 

[_roman_]

Honestly I was just curious:

I wanted to see if any other website claimed that the usb-c has a display driven cabability.

Minisforum MS-A1 Mini-PC Review - Barebone with AM5 desktop socket and an AMD Ryzen 7 8700G | Page 2 | igor´sLAB

Now that Minisforum hasn’t appeared here for a while, it’s back in full force. Because the model I’m presenting to you today can be equipped as you need it thanks to the AM5 base. So let’s take a look…

www.igorslab.de

The back is where things get really exciting, with two 2.5GbE ports, DisplayPort 2.0, HDMI 2.1 and USB 4 40Gbps. Incidentally, the Type-C port can also be used with DisplayPort Alt Mode.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Minisforum-MS-A1-review-Workstation-supports-various-AMD-CPUs-and-offers-space-for-four-SSDs.901184.0.html

-- In my point of view - if you bought it online return it.

I saw notebookcheck wrote windows 11 - you are using windows 10

Debian and Linux mint and Ubuntu were 4 years ago basically the same.
You may test sysrescue-cd - that is my linux live medium for ages.
I do not know what option is needed to get usb-c working in the linux kernel and the gnu userspace.
(that would be totally out of scope. I assume when you write ubuntu - you have very, very small knowledge about gnu + linux / the gentoo linux wiki and arch linux wiki may have hints about that displayport alt mode feature)

Igor gave a hint that it'S a usb-c mechanical port with "displayport ALT mode". Maybe I have not seen it in your post - which monitor you are using. If the monitor can use that mode. If you are using the correct cable.

--

Unlocking Your USB-C Port's Display Potential: A Beginner's Guide to DP Alt Mode | Cable Matters Blog

Master DP Alt Mode and unleash the true display potential of your USB-C port. This guide provides expert insights to optimize your visual experience.

www.cablematters.com

To ensure optimal connectivity, it is essential to use compatible cables and equipment that support DP Alt Mode. Additionally, verifying that your devices are equipped with the necessary hardware and software for DP Alt Mode is essential. Choosing high-quality cables and adapters is also crucial for reliable and seamless connectivity.

With DP Alt Mode enabled, a USB-C port can deliver full-sized DisplayPort video to an external monitor, TV, or projector without needing any adapters, dongles, or converters. This allows USB-C ports to drive high-resolution displays the same way dedicated HDMI or DisplayPort ports can.

DP Alt Mode is an optional feature that must be supported in both the USB-C port on a device like a laptop or phone, and in the USB-C cable connecting it to the display. Not all USB-C ports or cables support DP Alt Mode.

Do All USB-C Cables Support DP Alt Mode?​

While the USB-C connector provides a universal interface for various functions, not all USB-C cables support DP Alt Mode.

Maybe you need a proper cable? A good one? another one?

After reading this I think you need a proper cable most likely https://hackaday.com/2023/08/03/displayport-taming-the-altmode/

Did you use a new, fresh, bought, usb 4 cable? Or new, fresh, bought, thunderbolt 3 cable from a proper brand? Assuming you did the right things with the wiring and the software before that.

USB4, the latest USB standard, incorporates the capabilities of Thunderbolt 3 and offers enhanced data transfer speeds and compatibility. USB4 and Thunderbolt 3 both support DP Alt Mode, ensuring that USB-C cables certified for Thunderbolt 3 are also compatible with DP Alt Mode. This compatibility means that users can leverage the enhanced video transmission capabilities of DP Alt Mode with USB4 and Thunderbolt 3 devices.

Yeah, in this case, I reckon it's the latter. AMD's drivers are an utter mess; but of course, that's just me being biased towards Nvidia

I'm pro AMD. AMD has barely any support in windows 11 pro or gnu gentoo linux for my AMD Hardware.
phronix claims the support to be available around 2018.
Still i can not change the fan speed from my amd graphic card 7800XT in gnu linux. Or underclock, undervolt it.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Igor gave a hint that it'S a usb-c mechanical port with "displayport ALT mode". Maybe I have not seen it in your post - which monitor you are using. If the monitor can use that mode. If you are using the correct cable.

I see, I trust Igor, if it's DP-only, than an HDMI adapter will not work with this USB-C port.

 

[_roman_]

and one is HDMI/USB-C

I see, I trust Igor, if it's DP-only, than an HDMI adapter will not work with this USB-C port.

You are a genius. You found the issue.

You need a displayport monitor with displayport connection. Than you need a proper displayport - usb-c verfied cable.

 

[Dr. Dro]

You are a genius. You found the issue.

You need a displayport monitor with displayport connection. Than you need a proper displayport - usb-c verfied cable.

I've run into this problem before, it can be very confusing. There seems to be 3 types of USB-C ports, data-only, DP+data and universal DP+HDMI+data ports, if you plug an HDMI converter on a DP+data port, it won't work... it's not always clearly marked either, my laptop's USB-C port specifically has the DisplayPort logo next to it, but HDMI works, the same isn't true on my MSI motherboard like I mentioned earlier where HDMI does not work. Seems that the OP's minisforum machine is in the same boat.

 

[kapone32]

I've run into this problem before, it can be very confusing. There seems to be 3 types of USB-C ports, data-only, DP+data and universal DP+HDMI+data ports, if you plug an HDMI converter on a DP+data port, it won't work... it's not always clearly marked either, my laptop's USB-C port specifically has the DisplayPort logo next to it, but HDMI works, the same isn't true on my MSI motherboard like I mentioned earlier where HDMI does not work. Seems that the OP's minisforum machine is in the same boat.

Could be your OCed 13900KS burned the IGPU lanes.

 

[TheLostSwede]

I've run into this problem before, it can be very confusing. There seems to be 3 types of USB-C ports, data-only, DP+data and universal DP+HDMI+data ports, if you plug an HDMI converter on a DP+data port, it won't work... it's not always clearly marked either, my laptop's USB-C port specifically has the DisplayPort logo next to it, but HDMI works, the same isn't true on my MSI motherboard like I mentioned earlier where HDMI does not work. Seems that the OP's minisforum machine is in the same boat.

USB-C only does DP Alt mode or tunneled DP (USB4), anything HDMI related requires a chip that converts that DP signal to HDMI.
No USB standard supports native HDMI without said chip.

 

[Tahagomizer]

Thanks all, I also am suspicious of the cables, although I tested with two, both work with my laptop and the screens, one was supplied with the screen so should be reasonably reliable, but oh well. In a few days I'll borrow an expensive "Alt-mode/DP/Thunderbolt" one, but damn is USB-C a mess.

 

[Dr. Dro]

USB-C only does DP Alt mode or tunneled DP, anything HDMI related requires a chip that converts that DP signal to HDMI.
No USB standard supports native HDMI without said chip.

TIL. I suppose this chip is associated with the port itself?

 

[TheLostSwede]

Thanks all, I also am suspicious of the cables, although I tested with two, both work with my laptop and the screens, one was supplied with the screen so should be reasonably reliable, but oh well. In a few days I'll borrow an expensive "Alt-mode/DP/Thunderbolt" one, but damn is USB-C a mess.

It's not so much that USB-C is a mess, as in the USB IF came up with piss poor branding and a bunch of companies don't bother to label their products correctly.
Question, did you try unplugging the HDMI cable to see if you get a display output via the USB-C? It could be that those two share the display output from the APU, as sometimes companies do stupid things like that, because it was easier.
That said, that port should be fully USB4 compliant with that APU and you seem to have tested with different cables that you've verified are working with other hardware, so it might just be a dud you bought.

TIL. I suppose this chip is associated with the port itself?

No, it's not. It would be in the USB-C to HDMI cable/adapter.
However, there are a bunch of companies that makes those chips and I presume not all of them are following the specs.

 

[Dr. Dro]

No, it's not. It would be in the USB-C to HDMI cable/adapter.
However, there are a bunch of companies that makes those chips and I presume not all of them are following the specs.

Really odd, the adapter that I have works on my laptop, but didn't on the old motherboard's DP-marked port. Apex Encore doesn't have iGPU wired up at all, so I couldn't try on this one. Yup, it's officially a mess

 

[TheLostSwede]

Really odd, the adapter that I have works on my laptop, but didn't on the old motherboard's DP-marked port. Apex Encore doesn't have iGPU wired up at all, so I couldn't try on this one. Yup, it's officially a mess

I've had issues with older DP to HDMI adapters, where they work on some computers, but not others, as they still have a signal conversion chip and I have no idea why this happens.

 

[eidairaman1]

Request RMA, they build the damn thing, they can fix it themselves

 

[_roman_]

Suppose the user connects a hdmi screen to a displayport output - why should there be a rma?

I hope the topic poster will give us some feedback when he finds the time and the needed cables.

displayport and hdmi are different.

 

[Tahagomizer]

It's not so much that USB-C is a mess, as in the USB IF came up with piss poor branding and a bunch of companies don't bother to label their products correctly.
Question, did you try unplugging the HDMI cable to see if you get a display output via the USB-C? It could be that those two share the display output from the APU, as sometimes companies do stupid things like that, because it was easier.
That said, that port should be fully USB4 compliant with that APU and you seem to have tested with different cables that you've verified are working with other hardware, so it might just be a dud you bought.

I thought it might disable ports not connected during boot - it does it for HDMI - so I tried booting it without anything else, but it doesn't work.

Request RMA, they build the damn thing, they can fix it themselves

RMAs to China have, from experience, less than 50% success rate. More often than not packages get lost or take many months.

Suppose the user connects a hdmi screen to a displayport output - why should there be a rma?

I hope the topic poster will give us some feedback when he finds the time and the needed cables.

displayport and hdmi are different.

I might have been unclear, I meant the screen has both USB-C and HDMI inputs, originally I mentioned I contemplated adapting the computer's native DP output to HDMI, which doesn't seem to be an option for this machine, a simple passive adapter doesn't work. I removed that bit for the sake of brevity but it might have left some unclearness. I'm sorry for that.