Affordable HEDT, is there such a thing?

[Macro Device]

That's not true at all. I have a Dell Vostro i5-2450M that runs Windows 11 and it feels very "snappy". If someone is running a 10980X and it doesn't have good & snappy performance, they need to debloat their install of Windows.

Why are y'all missing on the context. Of course you can do BASIC stuff on an i3 from two forevers ago but running business tasks involving heavy calculations makes 10980XE feel antique. You can't deliver the results in time so it's not snappy enough. And there is no healthy upgrade over that. Either LGA1700/1851 nonsense or AM5 buffoonery, or something so expensive it's cheaper to become a trigger-happy crypto trader at this point.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I do recognize it has become a niche ... but it's a bit undeniable that HEDTs of old were and remain more versatile systems

Huh? Of course it IS deniable. Do you not see how you just blatantly contradicted yourself in the most grandiose way?

What is a niche market but one that is "small and specialized"? Small and specialized is about as polar opposite as you can get from "versatile".

 

[Dr. Dro]

Huh? Of course it IS deniable. Do you not see how you just blatantly contradicted yourself in the most grandiose way?

What is a niche market but one that is "small and specialized"? Small and specialized is about as polar opposite as you can get from "versatile".

Bill, it remains a fact, even if I wanted to, I cannot install 8 memory sticks onto my Z790 system. No motherboard on this chipset will do it. This limits its maximum memory capacity and indirectly, the maximum bandwidth attainable. I cannot run 4 GPUs off it, at least not at full-bandwidth. The amount of SATA ports is limited, and if I install enough PCIe add-in cards or M.2 format SSDs, some of them will get disabled. Things are further complicated if I add extras like capture cards, advanced NICs or any specialty boards. I cannot run AVX-512 on this, unless I go back and buy an early-manufacture 12th Gen CPU and basically restrict myself to using an old microcode to re-enable it through an exploit. My Raptor Lake chip? Cannot do it, all of them have this instruction set fused off at the factory.

That's why HEDTs are important. The "niche" was formed through pricing alone - as Intel dropped out of the HEDT race (the reason they did this was not a lack of market demand, but rather issues with fabrication and the extremely high cost of their ever more advanced Xeon CPUs of which i9 X-series are derived from), AMD elected to elitize the Threadripper platform which is now the only one which has tons of cores, AVX-512, raw amount of PCIe lanes and the 4/8-channel memory support. They are charging an outrageous amount of money for it - just because they can. They have no competition.

I personally have always built HEDT systems, but they've gotten priced out of my reach and priced out of market. If Intel had an Emerald Rapids chip with say, even 6 cores, with a fully featured HEDT platform, I would have purchased that over my i9-13900KS without thinking twice.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Wow. Talk about tunnel vision. I give. Legacy niche HEDT CPUs and motherboards were the most versatile ever made.

Have a good day.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Wow. Talk about tunnel vision. I give. Legacy niche HEDT CPUs and motherboards were the most versatile ever made.

Have a good day.

There's no tunnel vision, man. These are things that desktop platforms simply cannot do today. They've strung us all up with a limited amount of PCIe lanes, and even within this mainstream space, it's further segmented, with cheaper motherboards having even less wiggle room for expansion.

 

[Solaris17]

You’re both pretty. Take it to PM please.

 

[unwind-protect]

Are the two of you even disagreeing on something?

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Affordable depends on your salary.

Answer is yes/no. Bait question.

OP 10980XE released at like 950$. Was that affordable in 2019?

 

[Zach_01]

Affordable depends on your salary.

Answer is yes/no. Bait question.

OP 10980XE released at like 950$. Was that affordable in 2019?

This^^
...and if Intel had a 2023-2024 version of the 10980XE (a 12980XE or Ultra 9 295XE with 30+cores and 48+ lanes) would it cost <$1000?

I seriously doubt it with all the fab costs going up with every new node and the potential size of that chip.

 

[Bobaganoosh]

Honestly, it seems these days that the cheapest way into such a PC is to buy a workstation from Lenovo/Dell/etc. when they're on sale and then try to customize it (which admittedly can be a nightmare on its own for various reasons).

Otherwise the only viable way looks like a 7960X with TRX50 motherboard.

Affordable? Depends on your perspective.

 

[SiggiTheHun]

What about adding a Tesla GPU vs more CPU cores?

 

[Toothless]

What about adding a Tesla GPU vs more CPU cores?

Tesla has been discontinued since 2020. He's better off with two 4090's with that logic and still stuck on an old-ish HEDT.

 

[Rorre]

Would a not-new but not-old dual socket work? I've ran W10 Pro on multiple dual sockets (even a dual socket 1366) perfectly fine and they do pack enough PCI lanes. V4 Broadwells can run W11 with a TPM module and go up to 22 cores per chip.

However my dual 2698v4 matches a 5950x in multi threading. You'd want something much newer but that may make the price spike pretty high.

I have an ASUS X99-a II system with a single e5-2690v4 (14c,28t) CPU and 128GB ECC DDR4 ram, I use OpenFOAM for CFD. The system was bogged down because of a lack of AVX 512. That is why I built my X299 system with the i9-10980xe 4 years ago, and it has served me well.
New projects I’ll be working on will be better served with multiGPUs, so that is why I’m looking for more PCIe lanes. AVX512 would be nice to keep on the newer system I intend to build, in which case I’d need to buy into the Threadripper 7000 series, and that is prohibitively expensive. Threadripper 3000 and 5000 series would provide way more lanes than I really need, be very expensive especially in the 5000 series, and leave me without AVX512.
So now it is likely that I’m inclined to look at the Xeon W-3300 (ice-lake) processors with a Socket 4189 motherboard, as in SuperMicro X12SPA-TF. Core count is not important, so an inexpensive (relatively) W-3345 can be found on eBay for around 5-600 usd. Motherboard looks to had for somewhere between 750-1000 dollars. The Saphire Rapids platform is new and expensive, namely because of the expensive ECC DDR5 RDIMMs, 1000$ for 128GB….yikes. So we’ll see. The other thing important is I have plenty of ECC DDR4 memory, and if I need more it is inexpensive.

What's the reason, or reasons? Mobo prices? Ability to overclock? Ability to use unbuffered memory?

Noise, and too large of a form-factor, among many others.

 

[Toothless]

I have an ASUS X99-a II system with a single e5-2690v4 (14c,28t) CPU and 128GB ECC DDR4 ram, I use OpenFOAM for CFD. The system was bogged down because of a lack of AVX 512. That is why I built my X299 system with the i9-10980xe 4 years ago, and it has served me well.
New projects I’ll be working on will be better served with multiGPUs, so that is why I’m looking for more PCIe lanes. AVX512 would be nice to keep on the newer system I intend to build, in which case I’d need to buy into the Threadripper 7000 series, and that is prohibitively expensive. Threadripper 3000 and 5000 series would provide way more lanes than I really need, be very expensive especially in the 5000 series, and leave me without AVX512.
So now it is likely that I’m inclined to look at the Xeon W-3300 (ice-lake) processors with a Socket 4188 motherboard, as in SuperMicro X12SPA-TF. Core count is not important, so an inexpensive (relatively) W-3345 can be found on eBay for around 5-600 usd. Motherboard looks to had for somewhere between 750-1000 dollars. The Saphire Rapids platform is new and expensive, namely because of the expensive ECC DDR5 RDIMMs, 1000$ for 128GB….yikes. So we’ll see. The other thing important is I have plenty of ECC DDR4 memory, and if I need more it is inexpensive.


Noise, and too large of a form-factor, among many others.

So there is an instruction set requirement. The only person I can think of that'd know more is @venturi with their knowledge on dual socket workstations and multi-GPU setups for work.

 

[Solaris17]

(ice-lake)

Be careful to make sure you know your needs they are removing support for IGC.

Intel Graphics Compiler Removes Support For Ice Lake & Older - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

Which may or may not matter to you. Additionally OS usage. Remember that past around 60 cores Windows hates it and if you go dual socket just make sure you read up on numa spanning and if such things will impact your workload, though admittedly, dual socket is more likely to get you the lanes you need cheaper then a newer build but still mobo prices are never going to settle. You arent going to find one anywhere close to consumer prices, for even the single socket systems with LGA sockets that large.

If you do try and cut costs in other ways, such as I mentioned before with ES/QS chips, be mindful if you are going intel to look at your chipset. The server boards with the server chipsets while compatible are more stringent in the micro codes they will accept and generally blacklist ES/QS samples. In rare cases you can find the qualification BIOS' but you will be running out dates stuff.

Depending on your workload also make sure that you are getting what you want out of the lanes. If possible check to see how many DMI lanes there are available to the chipset if you find yourself needing bandwidth from the chipset.

 

[Rorre]

Be careful to make sure you know your needs they are removing support for IGC.

Intel Graphics Compiler Removes Support For Ice Lake & Older - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

Which may or may not matter to you. Additionally OS usage. Remember that past around 60 cores Windows hates it and if you go dual socket just make sure you read up on numa spanning and if such things will impact your workload, though admittedly, dual socket is more likely to get you the lanes you need cheaper then a newer build but still mobo prices are never going to settle. You arent going to find one anywhere close to consumer prices, for even the single socket systems with LGA sockets that large.

If you do try and cut costs in other ways, such as I mentioned before with ES/QS chips, be mindful if you are going intel to look at your chipset. The server boards with the server chipsets while compatible are more stringent in the micro codes they will accept and generally blacklist ES/QS samples. In rare cases you can find the qualification BIOS' but you will be running out dates stuff.

Depending on your workload also make sure that you are getting what you want out of the lanes. If possible check to see how many DMI lanes there are available to the chipset if you find yourself needing bandwidth from the chipset.

Well, thank you very much for that pertinent info with regards to ES and QS Xeon CPUs as it relates to firmware. Its kind of like the Threadripper 5000WX series locked and unlocked, so many locked TR's on eBay for at least half the price of unlocked chips, but virtually unusable for DIY builders. I'm pursuing stability.
I have found fortunately, a W-3355 for about $700 and most importantly an AsRock C621a WS (Socket 4189) for under $800, so likely pushing ahead with this platform.

 

[Solaris17]

Well, thankyou very much for that pertinent info with regards to ES and Qs Xeon CPUs. Its kind of like the Threadripper 5000series locked and unlocked, so many locked TR's on eBay for dirt cheap but unusable for DIY builders. I'm pursuing stability.
I have found fortunately, a W-3355 for about $700 and most importantly an AsRock C621a WS (Socket 4189) for under $800, so likely pushing ahead with this platform.

Actually thats incorrect now. 621 was the intermediary socket. With some manufacturers designating "WC" instead of just "C"; Passed that workstation chipsets are designated "W" with server chipsets designated "C". Additionally, server chipsets keep the nomeclature such as "C741" whereas workstation chipsets adhere (for now) to desktop naming conventions IE "W790". Of course given there slower release cadence they will reflect whatever is current at time of release.

Just something to keep in mind when you come across a good deal since they changed the naming convention. For example some supermicro C741 can be had used cheap, but they will not boot your $1000 ES xeon.

I have found fortunately, a W-3355 for about $700 and most importantly an AsRock C621a WS (Socket 4189) for under $800, so likely pushing ahead with this platform.

Snap it up before its gone!

 

[Rorre]

Actually thats incorrect now. 621 was the intermediary socket. With some manufacturers designating "WC" instead of just "C"; Passed that workstation chipsets are designated "W" with server chipsets designated "C". Additionally, server chipsets keep the nomeclature such as "C741" whereas workstation chipsets adhere (for now) to desktop naming conventions IE "W790". Of course given there slower release cadence they will reflect whatever is current at time of release.

Just something to keep in mind when you come across a good deal since they changed the naming convention. For example some supermicro C741 can be had used cheap, but they will not boot your $1000 ES xeon.



Snap it up before its gone!

Thought i clarified that I will steer clear of ES/QS Xeons in favor of stability. The C621a chipset as found in the AsRock C621a WS and Supermicro MBD-X12SPA-TF-B both are compatible with the W-3300 series Xeons using the C621a chipset. The C621e chipset was used in the Socked 3647 using the Xeon W-3200 series.

 

[Solaris17]

Thought i clarified that I will steer clear of ES/QS Xeons in favor of stability. The C621a chipset as found in the AsRock C621a WS and Supermicro MBD-X12SPA-TF-B both are compatible with the W-3300 series Xeons using the C621a chipset. The C621e chipset was used in the Socked 3647 using the Xeon W-3200 series.

yup it sure is and some compounded those "a" and "e" with "WC" or "C". I was just letting you know for the next time you upgrade. In the event you grab another C series. If anything I think the naming convention is a bit more simple, though the processor support is overall more strict.

 

[DirtyDingusMcgee]

If you need cheap server or workstation gear, you should be looking at PCSP

If you don't mind used and refurb, you can usually do pretty good. Can custom order systems to your liking with as many or few parts in it as you want. Buy a whole rig, or just the barebones and fill it up your self. It my go-to before ebay.

 

[Rorre]

yup it sure is and some compounded those "a" and "e" with "WC" or "C". I was just letting you know for the next time you upgrade. In the event you grab another C series. If anything I think the naming convention is a bit more simple, though the processor support is overall more strict.

BTW, I like your system specs. Priced out a SR comparable system, just too steep for me. Also priced out a SR W5-2400 series with an ASUS Pro WS W790-ACE more in line with my budget. However it was the requirement for overclockable ECC RDIMM DDR5 ram that broke me....$1000 for 128GB?!!
What's nice for me is that C621a has PCIe Gen4 for the first time in the Xeon platform. I have 2X RTX4080's, an NVMe m.2 adaptor card requiring X16 4.0 lanes, and i have oodles of ECC DDR4 memory. Presently running in my Asus X299 system I have, 2X RTX a4000's along with the m.2 adaptor card. Pretty confident that the IceLake system will suffice my needs.

 

[Toothless]

Well, thank you very much for that pertinent info with regards to ES and QS Xeon CPUs as it relates to firmware. Its kind of like the Threadripper 5000WX series locked and unlocked, so many locked TR's on eBay for at least half the price of unlocked chips, but virtually unusable for DIY builders. I'm pursuing stability.
I have found fortunately, a W-3355 for about $700 and most importantly an AsRock C621a WS (Socket 4189) for under $800, so likely pushing ahead with this platform.

Pics when you build it pls

 

[Rorre]

Pics when you build it pls

After the launch of the RTX 5000 series.

 

[Solaris17]

BTW, I like your system specs. Priced out a SR comparable system, just to steep for me. Also priced out a SR W5-2400 series with an ASUS Pro WS W790-ACE more in line with my budget. However it was the requirement for overclockable ECC RDIMM DDR5 ram that broke me....$1000 for 128GB?!!
What's nice for me is that C621a has PCIe Gen4 for the first time in the Xeon platform. I have 2X RTX4080's, an NVMe m.2 adaptor card requiring X16 4.0 lanes, and i have oodles of ECC DDR4 memory. Presently running in my Asus X299 system I have, 2X RTX a4000's along with the m.2 adaptor card. Pretty confident that the IceLake system will suffice my needs.

Thanks! and yes it was quite expensive, but I did my stint in consumer land and while off topic, hated it. As you have seen in x299 these particular systems have quite the long legs, which is what I actually prefer when it comes to HW builds. I think you should go for it, before someone else does, I think it will work fine. One pro tip, just make sure the board or CPU comes with the carrier card (if buying used) or your going to be up shits creek.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Noise, and too large of a form-factor, among many others.

Ok so you want to stay with standard ATX and Intel. Sadly, there are not a lot of options anymore for that combination. I'm in very much your situation. I want to upgrade from my X299 system and other than Threadripper, there just aren't any great options.