AMD Radeon RX 8800 XT RDNA 4 Enters Mass-production This Month: Rumor

[sbacc]

Transformative RT as big part of the industry love to talk about is a pipe dream. Right now RT has been used in 3 scenarios.

1 : to step up in scenarios when rasterisation trick clearly fail -> both Spiderman game building's reflection -> work nicely, perf to visual cost is OK, actually run not too shabby on AMD hardware.

2. To make game with a "cartoony" visual identity have a much more well-rounded, grounded, consistent visual identity by using some form of cheap GI -> Tiny Glade -> small, but noticeable visual positive impact, relatively cheap to run on both AMD and Nvidia

3. "transformative RT" To improve immersion and the overall lighting realism -> Cyberpunk 2077 or Alan Wake 2 -> really expensive to run for all GPU, even harder on AMD.

The problem with number 3, the poster child of RT, is to get a good result, RT alone is useless, you also need :

1. Great and detailed texture (add vram usage and development cost)

2. Good high poly model (add RT performance cost and also development cost)

3. Great animation (big development cost)

And at last but not least, the most important, because without it even path-tracing look bad.

4. Spot-on material properties, without it even the best lighting system will give you unrealistic result if different object with different material don't behave correctly with light (big increase in development cost and require advance knowledge that most studio, today, lacks in different amount)

With the video game industry already having a huge cost problem, can someone explain me how that transformative RT future will come to reality ?

A much more probable future (not for now, obviously) is let's render a frame in raster with "good enough and cheap enough" quality and ask an AI model to make it look realistic in real-time...That is the only way you truly save on development time and cost.

 

[DaemonForce]

Because AMD are AMD. Can't remember any of their 2020s products priced right.

Black Friday has already chimed in to say this is dead wrong.

Lowest price 4090 on Newegg $2899 the most expensive is $5899

Lowest priced 7900XTX on Newegg $1406 the most expensive is $2499

Then look at the Lowest priced 7900XT on Newegg $869

I'm looking but you're not thinking. What JUST happened this weekend? Oh, right. The largest tech sales of the entire year.
Those prices are super high because that's all that remains. The market has decided that this is what these cards are NOT worth.
Especially that last one. I've had my eye on the 7900XT for a long time and this is what the market has decided the interesting ones are worth:

You already know where I'm going with the other cards too.
These are the lock in prices on the good stuff. The rest is noise.
GG no fkin RE, you're welcome, don't @ me and...We WILL see these prices again soon.

 

[TSiAhmat]

Black Friday has already chimed in to say this is dead wrong.

I'm looking but you're not thinking. What JUST happened this weekend? Oh, right. The largest tech sales of the entire year.
Those prices are super high because that's all that remains. The market has decided that this is what these cards are NOT worth.
Especially that last one. I've had my eye on the 7900XT for a long time and this is what the market has decided the interesting ones are worth:
View attachment 374224

You already know where I'm going with the other cards too.
These are the lock in prices on the good stuff. The rest is noise.
GG no fkin RE, you're welcome, don't @ me and...We WILL see these prices again soon.

I assume he meant Canadian $ (or Australian $ [almost forgot about them]) not USA $ (Maybe i am misunderstanding something here ^^")

 

[DaemonForce]

Right because I'm going to go CAD for the sales in the US.
You want some mindshare to go with that?
Price discovery is going to be on its head for a few days to a few weeks before returning to normal.
Those CAD prices are going to resemble USD next sale.

 

[TSiAhmat]

Right because I'm going to go CAD for the sales in the US.
You want some mindshare to go with that?
Price discovery is going to be on its head for a few days to a few weeks before returning to normal.
Those CAD prices are going to resemble USD next sale.

ah okay, I misunderstood your intention (and didn't read what kapone32 wrote).

I can only comment on the prices in my area (central europe).

And the 4090 was almost always double the price the 7900xtx is. And I think that's the intention of kapone32.

around 23 % more performance for 100 % more money (probably 30% now)
(if you don't care about DLSS vs FSR and RT)

But i think he should mention the 4080/S which is not a lot more expensive for more consistent Performance and on average better upscaling tech. (compared to a 7900xtx)

 

[3valatzy]

View attachment 374224

This is the price of RX 6800 XT when it was launched four years ago. Today, you get 35% more performance for same money.
Should it have been the RX 7900 XT price from the get go back two years ago, today the things would have been much different.

 

[Vya Domus]

I want NVIDIA to lower their prices because they're backed into a corner because AMD has released a stellar product, only then will consumers win.

Why would you care though, you buy Nvidia, what difference does this make to you.

 

[john_]

Playable framerate is not marketing. It is essential. A person buying 7900XTX is not buying it for 60fps tech demo.
Playing one tech demo at barely playable framerate (these days i expect high refreshrate experience at 90+) is not what i call a "money spent well".

People don't play games with a frame counter visible. While it is essential, don't expect people out there looking how to secure a 60+ fps frame rate. Even 20-30fps will look as smooth gameplay to many out there and if you ask them they wouldn't know what framerate they have. Don't forget that consoles many times are targeting 30 fps not 60. Also someone having payed $2000 would want to see that that $2000 graphics card can be 3-4 times faster than the $1000 model from the other company. And for that person, 60fps will be more than enough.

Nvidia lowering prices while manufacturing costs go up and new G7 being also more expensive? Never gonna happen. The best we can expect is the same price and that's assuming they're feeling generous and cut into their margins.
AMD wont start a price war with Nvidia because they dont have the money coffers and capacity.
Nvidia wont start a price was with AMD because they want to increase their money coffers.

Blackwell is two dies combined into one huge chip and came at the same price as H200. That's like 1+1 free GPU offer from Nvidia and you tell me that they wouldn't lower prices? They will. Even in gaming, the fact that they lowered prices and released the Super models when AMD's prices got too low, shows that they will react.

Don't worry, it's never been about RT itself but more about "Radeons are bad at X and Y so X and Y do not matter, because it exposes a deficiency in my favorite brand"

Better late than never, sadly RTX 50 series will walk all over it

You love monopolies don't you?

@john_

See, this is what I meant when I said it doesn't matter. That's how a consumer looks at it, it wouldn't matter if AMD offered 4080 RT performance for say 500$ the consumer only knows that "Nvidia walks all over it" and that's the end of the story.

The consumer doesn't necessary look at it this way. Tech press and some people are doing a real crusade out there to convince everyone that anything that isn't Nvidia is crap and that's where the problem is. That's why we gone to a monopoly.

 

[DaemonForce]

Monopoly kind of but not really? Are you guys looking at the projected status of 2025 like at all?
For the first time in many years we have three different very well established companies making GPUs and they're NOT competing with each other.
We have nVidia at the very top of the food chain with blah blah blah mindshare blah blah blah best of the best of the best RT performance, whatever.
AMD is locked right into the mid-range market where almost all of this PC gaming hobby really matters and support is starting to evolve.
Then we have Intel still doggin it at the very bottom and struggling to put out fires right after Gelsinger got got, assuming nothing worse happens to the company.
This is not a good look for anyone getting into this hobby and I'm not even sure if I'm going to stick around for it either.

 

[Dr. Dro]

Why would you care though, you buy Nvidia, what difference does this make to you.

Oh I dunno. I certainly love monopolies, they're great. Totally healthy for the hobby and the industry as a whole. I'm harsh on AMD precisely because I know first hand they can do better. But I also don't believe that large corporations should be rewarded or get a pass for their repeated screw-ups because of emotional attachment.

Spoiler: Thrilling story time

See my last all-AMD build here? Ryzen 9. VII. ROG board. Peak AM4 here. This is around ~4 years old. Wasn't much later that I began to lose faith in them. I wonder why...

Not much later, that build turned into this.

The extremely poor experience I've had with the past 3 generations of graphics cards (Fury X, Vega FE and the VII) and the sheer disinterest from AMD in getting them fixed threw me over the edge. At the same time AM4 was going through a rough patch, Zen 3 had just been released and we X370 owners were blacklisted for over a year, because AMD wanted to upsell motherboards and came up with that ridiculous lie that X370 couldn't handle Zen 3 due to BIOS ROM size (despite the fact that post-Alder Lake, even a lowly A320 will run a 5800X3D - that was all it took) - after going through the lengths of selling my motherboard (which started to lose value because it "would no longer receive CPU updates due to hardware limitations"), I sidegraded to that Strix B550-E alongside the RTX 3090 (which was easily +100% performance over the VII) and went from the 3900XT to the 5950X processor. Funny how all it took was the threat of competition.

Eventually I wanted more CPU power and to experience DDR5, but I took into account that I have had *many* issues with this setup. I got hit by the infamous USB dropout problems, AGESA bugs everywhere - the first BIOS revision I experienced couldn't do DDR4-3200(!) with the kit I have. Motherboard was never the problem, later revisions ran 3600 with ease even at a very low VSoC. Zen 4, too, launched with AGESA so broken, problematic memory timings, ultra-high boot times, etc. - I ended up going to Intel. After many upgrades and an unplanned motherboard replacement,, that machine eventually turned into this, which is my current build's look and already on its way to the next evolution:

All the while, of course, I have never had a single blue screen with my 3090 and the 4080 that subsequently replaced it. I had fully intended to buy a 7900 XTX. But I was reminded of the experiences I had, and I got a very bad last minute ick. I'm gonna skip any further yada yada and just get to the point: I gotta tell you - if I hadn't and went ahead and gotten my 15 year old Steam account VAC banned because of my graphics card, I would be so utterly furious I would never even consider an AMD product again. Because you know what made that happen? The same laziness and stupidity that made me renounce my trust in AMD pretty much entirely. Instead of developing an SDK like Nvidia did for Reflex, the morons just thought it'd be a good idea to have the graphics driver tamper with the software and inject DLLs at will to manipulate it directly.

They'll have to work very hard to rebuild my trust. With Ryzen, they already have. Great progress has been done there and once OpenSIL replaces AGESA, pretty much the last of the reservations I had with the product line would be resolved. But with Radeon? It's gonna take much more than a lukewarm rendition of a card that purportedly offers the same performance as my 3 year old second-tier GPU with a breadth of low-quality clones of the technologies it already offers at a discount to impress me, especially if the software value-add and reliability I get from my existing card will obviously be superior for the foreseable future.

The consumer doesn't necessary look at it this way. Tech press and some people are doing a real crusade out there to convince everyone that anything that isn't Nvidia is crap and that's where the problem is. That's why we gone to a monopoly.

I agree that the consumer doesn't necessarily look at it this way. But that is because I disagree with your second point, the notion that the tech press is doing a real crusade to convince people that only Nvidia is simply not true. If anything, the tech press has always placed Radeon in a relatively undeserved positive light, continuing to recommend them to folks despite the very real issues and drawbacks that these things have. There's no ongoing review boycott, each and every model is diligently benchmarked and reviewed, and I don't think I've ever seen a single review where either W1zzard or anyone else in the industry immediately dismissed them as a valid option and told people "just buy Nvidia instead".

It's unwise to consider the customer to be dumb - especially when the only loyalty most have is money. If Nvidia is far more expensive (and it is) and generally offers you less hardware for the money (which is also true), with the faster products being the fastest but also very expensive (again, true), yet they retain such an overwhelming market share, perhaps it's time AMD reevaluates its business choices and their ardent fans stop playing pretend that things are just fine. They are not fine, and every time you look the other way, you've effectively contributed to the status quo.

The truth is, right now, they don't measure up. In the close future, they won't measure up. In the long term... they MIGHT measure up. I don't see the value in placing a long-term gamble out of faith in a global megacorporation that has visibly started to look at this business as a liability.

 

[JustBenching]

If you can call "achieving" barely playable 60fps on a card that most of it's shelf live has cost near 2000 as looking like 2 generations ahead then i dont know what to say. More like 2 generations behind. I remember the days when i bough a flagship card (that cost less than half as much) and cranked every setting to maximum and enjoyed a buttery smooth experience.

That was literally never the case. I had a bunch of high end cards the last 20 years. They all struggled to play the demanding games of their time. Watchdogs 2 was dropping to 20 frames at 1080p on my brand new 1080ti. What are you talking about man?

And for us gamers, what does this thing add, besides pretty reflections on puddles?

Because gameplay wise, it adds nothing.

If you don't care about graphics then you are in the wrong thread. No gpu can do anything gameplay wise.

 

[Neo_Morpheus]

overwhelming market share, perhaps it's time AMD reevaluates its business choices

As mentioned by _John and by me, we are in a world of sheeples ran by influencers, whom are either bribed (my take) or worse, providing "guidance" based on their personal bias.

AMD hardware is ok, but the mindshare factor only exist under the banner "AMD GPUs are absolute trash, only Ngreedias makes good GPUs"

Perhaps AMD should do the same and start bribing these influencers.

heir ardent fans stop playing pretend that things are just fine.

No, we dont pretend that things are fine. If that was the case, we wouldnt be wasting our time repeating the same dammed thing over and over.

The truth is, right now, they don't measure up. In the close future, they won't measure up. In the long term... they MIGHT measure up.

What does this even mean?

I will assume that you are referring (as a gamer) that because they dont have anything soundly beating the 4090 plus all the proprietary crap like DLSS and others, they simply dont have ANY GPU's that are good?

If thats the case, you simply confirms point 1 above.

If you don't care about graphics then you are in the wrong thread. No gpu can do anything gameplay wise.

Missed the whole point, but its ok.

 

[JustBenching]

Missed the whole point, but its ok.

I don't think I did. You made 50 posts about rt being a gimmick cause it only improves graphics. Dude the whole graphics thing on a game is a gimmick. Still, that's what you buy a new gpu for, to render better gimmicks.

The consumer will google that and end up with many posts saying "AMD drivers are trash, FSR is trash, only buy Nvidia cards" and will go and buy the Nvidia card.

Really though? Most of the posts on the internet is about ngrendia and how great amd is. What are you even talking about? Just read this very thread, 99% of the posts are against nvidia. Feels like amd fans live in an alternate reality, lol

 

[john_]

agree that the consumer doesn't necessarily look at it this way. But that is because I disagree with your second point, the notion that the tech press is doing a real crusade to convince people that only Nvidia is simply not true.

Oh, yes it is. I am seeing it for over a decade. Tech press will attack AMD with any excuse given, even a rumor, will swallow Intel's mistakes(until recently because Intel doesn't have money now) and will try to ignore Nvidia's mistakes, because Nvidia BITES. As for recommendations, they are always Nvidia, AMD only when there is no way to go around it.

 

[Neo_Morpheus]

I don't think I did. You made 50 posts about rt being a gimmick cause it only improves graphics. Dude the whole graphics thing on a game is a gimmick. Still, that's what you buy a new gpu for, to render better gimmicks.


Really though? Most of the posts on the internet is about ngrendia and how great amd is. What are you even talking about? Just read this very thread, 99% of the posts are against nvidia. Feels like amd fans live in an alternate reality, lol

Missed it again, but clearly you do have an axe to grind with me, so no matter what I say, it will be useless.

But to clarify, RT is a gimmick that its getting way too much attention for adding absolutely nothing to gameplay.

 

[JustBenching]

Missed it again, but clearly you do have an axe to grind with me, so no matter what I say, it will be useless.

But to clarify, RT is a gimmick that its getting way too much attention for adding absolutely nothing to gameplay.

I have no axesto grind with you don't even know you.

Rt is as much of a gimmick as any other graphics feature. It adds nothing to gameplay. Still, we are buying graphics cards for the graphics, we are buying games for the gameplay part.

 

[TSiAhmat]

Guys, i feel like we are getting a bit off topic in here.

And the conversation seems to go nowhere...

 

[JustBenching]

It's faster overall in the TPU review because of the AMD sponsored "RT Lite" titles (read, RT not worth enabling) - and even then, by such an insignificant amount it made virtually zero sense to upgrade from a 3080 to the 7900XT - that would be been almost entirely a waste of money for the way I play my PC games - bearing in mind I already owned the 3080 for about 2 years at that point.

View attachment 374208

3080 is at 89% at 1080p and 1440p respectively overall.

But here lets see games where RT is far more impactful, all of a sudden it's not an upgrade at all, in fact it's slower at RT.

View attachment 374209 View attachment 374210


If you've seen me around the forums you know that I get a lot of enjoyment from games from the immersion they give, and I happen to find lighting to be a very compelling improvement in a lot of games where RT is well executed. If I'm going to pay $500++ USD for a video card, you bet I want it to be a feature rich, envelope pushing option.

People can proclaim it's a mindshare issue and that it's sad as much as they want (and it may well be for others), but I have zero allegiance to Nvidia, they just happen to currently make the most compelling products for my use case. If and When AMD can do that (again, noting I have and continue to own AMD video cards), they'll always be considered when I want to upgrade.

AMD's worst enemy has been themselves, in products, marketing and PR - but I am confident and hopeful they're at least trying to turn that around, re: the focus of this news topic and FSR4 going ML.

I will gladly part with my hard earned when AMD make a product that suits my use case, mindshare, tech press coverage (opinion) has essentially nothing to do with it, I look at the numbers, features etc and make up my own mind.

I certainly don't expect anyone else to buy a video card for the reasons I do, and I find it equally daft anyone would expect the inverse, or claim to know why I make the choices I make without asking me first.

That's what people that swore a blood oath to amd don't get. That rdna3 was a total failure cause it could never convince someone with a 30 series to upgrade. I had the 3090 at the time and looking at the 7900xtx, it was a downgrade. The games I couldn't play well on my 3090 would play even worse on the xtx...

 

[kapone32]

Guys, i feel like we are getting a bit off topic in here.

And the conversation seems to go nowhere...

It is always the same Nvidia users that come on and complain about AMD even though they have no experience.

That's what people that swore a blood oath to amd don't get. That rdna3 was a total failure cause it could never convince someone with a 30 series to upgrade. I had the 3090 at the time and looking at the 7900xtx, it was a downgrade. The games I couldn't play well on my 3090 would play even worse on the xtx...

Prove that

 

[JustBenching]

Prove that

That the 7900xtx is struggling even worse? Uhm, any heavy game with RT /PT, go see for yourself.

 

[TSiAhmat]

It is always the same Nvidia users that come on and complain about AMD even though they have no experience.

This message doesn't help getting this conversation solved. You are just throwing shade at the other party not seeing the mistakes both did.

 

[JustBenching]

This message doesn't help getting this conversation solved. You are just throwing shade at the other party not seeing the mistakes both did.

In this very thread, people that buy nvidia have been called sheep and idiots driven by marketing (multiple times, by multiple people), BUT - it's always the same nvidia users that come on and complain

Well the funny part is that those "nvidia users" were buying (and still do) more amd hardware than those amd fans when amd actually makes good products.

 

[kapone32]

This message doesn't help getting this conversation solved. You are just throwing shade at the other party not seeing the mistakes both did.

It may not help but it is still the truth. It has been the same for years. Just look at the message above yours. This is not AMD vs Nvidia thread but the same people have come on to make it exactly that. Just look at the people using RT as a reason to not get AMD in a thread talking about production of AMD's next gen GPUs.

 

[JustBenching]

It may not help but it is still the truth. It has been the same for years. Just look at the message above yours. This is not AMD vs Nvidia thread but the same people have come on to make it exactly that. Just look at the people using RT as a reason to not get AMD in a thread talking about production of AMD's next gen GPUs.

Do you realize that amd fans have been talking about RT for the past 4 pages before me or dr.dro posted a single thing, right? Go check the previous pages.

But regardless, what's wrong with talking about RT in an amd gpu thread? Seems to be the place to do it.

 

[kapone32]

In this very thread, people that buy nvidia have been called sheep and idiots driven by marketing (multiple times, by multiple people), BUT - it's always the same nvidia users that come on and complain

I asked you to prove that a 7900XTX is that much slower vs a 3090 and you posted PT. How does a proprietary feature matter in the conversation, like the 3090 is so good at PT.