Mains Conditioner with Surge Protection

[Bill_Bright]

im not in the usa so no point making reference or products to 110v/60. its just teasing me on awesome stuff you have that I have to pay twice for, if they even have 230v/50

As @DirtyDingusMcgee pointed out, "really should keep an open mind".

Yes, of course they have 230V/50Hz units in those parts of the world.

It is not teasing. A "good" UPS with AVR is not candy. Many, including me, would say protecting our sensitive electronics (and it's often, more valuable data) is a necessity, not some nice-to-have treat.

my ONLY worry is when electricity comes back. not when it falls or any other time. ONLY this.

Ummm, did you read what I said above about in my post #36 about power fluctuations and what happens when power comes back?

Now you can argue with me all you want. I am not here to argue and frankly, I personally don't care. The facts remain the same. Even in regions that have very stable power grids, a "good" UPS with AVR offers many advantages over even the best surge and spike protectors, and certainly over nothing. Don't forget, destructive power anomalies can originate from within the home too - such as from a faulty microwave oven, or $15 1500W hair dryer.

And to be sure, I absolutely understand and appreciate the fact that budgets are often major factors in these decisions. But facts are facts.

I pick units that check that protection is still present

A wise choice. But I note you also pick units from a top-tier, highly reputable brand too. Still, the MOVs and other suppression devices are constantly being pounded upon by those surges and spikes they are suppressing and that does take a toll on them, even when better quality components, and compensating circuits are being used within. Of course, UPS are not maintenance-free either. UPS don't need to be regularly replaced, but their batteries do - typically every 2 - 5 years.

Well, I have noisy power.....keeps me awake all night with that racket.

what do you mean?

I wonder what you mean too. With your "buzz killington" reply if you were joking, probably best to indicate that with LOL or winks. But if you really do "hear" the noise, then you probably should have your outlet and facility grounds checked immediately.

 

[Hankieroseman]

Not even close. As Harlow correctly suggested, surge and spike protectors are little more than expensive and fancy extension cords. And that one in particular should, IMO, be investigated for false advertising because a surge and spike protector is NOT a mains "conditioner". It is a basic surge and spike protector.

A "true" power conditioner is an "active" device that regulates the waveform. As seen here, they are not cheap. Budget models are still around $250. And all are useless during a full outage. Power line conditioners are often used in high-end audio systems to prevent "noise" in the audio.


This is misleading. EVERYONE EVERYWHERE has dips (opposite of spikes), sags (opposite of surges) and brownouts (long duration sags). We mere humans may not "see" or perceive them, but they are there. If your lights ever "flicker", that is a long sag (or short brownout). Most dips and sags happen so quickly, we don't see them but our electronics can sure feel them. And if severe enough they WILL cause systems to suddenly crash.

Surge and spike protectors do absolutely nothing for dips, sags, or brownouts and simply clamp (chop off the tops of the sinewaves) of high-voltage anomalies. That is NOT conditioning. And with extreme high-voltage events, a surge and spike protector will stop or "break" power output.

Most power fluctuations are like a swinging pendulum. The initial "event" may be a "dip" with the pendulum swinging towards a drop in voltage. Then the grid attempts to compensate and the pendulum swings back, through normal and results in a "surge" or increase in voltage. Then the pendulum swings back again until the swinging stops and the system becomes stable, and waits for the next dip or sag or surge or spike.

Note a simple "clean" outage will not damage our electronics. It may wreck havoc on our data and files, but it will not hard the electronics. HOWEVER, when power is restored, that is when damage may occur - especially with large grid outages when, upon restoral, EVERY SINGLE refrigerator, freezer, air conditioner and other power hungry devices in the neighborhood try to start up at the same moment.

Note too the ATX Form Factor standard requires all ATX PC PSUs to maintain output ("hold up") power for 12ms at 100% of full load, and recommends a minimum of 17ms with an 80% load. Our eyes cannot see a drop in power that only lasts 17ms. Yet if any longer, the PSU will stop outputting power.

Sadly, many otherwise highly rated PSUs do NOT meet those hold-up requirements.

A good UPS with AVR, however, will detect and react by either regulating the power in less than 4ms and in extreme cases, kick over to battery power in less than 10ms.


Then you are wasting your time and ours. The ONLY way to deal with outages is with a "good" UPS with AVR (automatic voltage regulation).

HAVING SAID THAT, backup power during a complete power outage is only a minor bonus feature of a "good" UPS with AVR. By far, the greatest feature is the AVR.

A surge and spike protector is better than nothing, but not by much.

Never fail, even when the battery dies. The alarm won't let you forget. Never disappointed in the gang of various sized APC UPS 450~1500 Watt I have had in the last 20 years. They enjoy a PERFECT record.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Never fail, even when the battery dies.

Good point. Even with worn batteries, the AVR feature of a good UPS still provides essential protection from surges and spikes and most minor dips and sags.

 

[inquisitor1]

Good point. Even with worn batteries, the AVR feature of a good UPS still provides essential protection from surges and spikes and most minor dips and sags.

cool, the discussion went to ups instead of surge protection power strips.

someone suggested esphome and tasmoto items. will see what those are about.

 

[Bill_Bright]

cool, the discussion went to ups instead of surge protection power strips.

Well, yeah! Of course! You caused that to happen because in the very first line in your first post YOU SAID you were worried about the effects on your equipment due to the power "outages" you have, and the power "coming up and down multiple times" worrying you. And IMO, you are wise to worry about that. But surge and spike protectors do very little, if any, to protect you from those "ups" conditions, and they do nothing for the "downs".

And here's another advantage the UPS provides no surge and spike protector can. You can configure the good UPS to "gracefully" save your open files, close your open programs, and then "gracefully" shutdown Windows and "properly" power off your computer when there is an outage BEFORE the batteries in the UPS run down. Then you can configure the UPS (and the computer) to stay powered off until you, the user, power it up again. This eliminates your worry about the hardware being subjected to those ups and downs, multiple times concerns you (rightfully) have. Note these are typically the default settings of both the UPS and the computer.

I get it. You don't want a UPS. And that is your choice and I have to respect that. But sorry - there really is no legitimate "technical" rationale for that if you really are worried about your hardware.

 

[DirtyDingusMcgee]

OF course I'm not joking. Doesn't the sound of electrons flowing up and down those wires just make you crazy? They are so inconsiderate. Had to get the filters so i could sleep. Plug one in each ear, and problem solved.

 

[inquisitor1]

I asked about the item I linked. I didnt ask about ups and I said " I dont care for ups".

I only asked about getting the power strip. " I need a graphics card. i was thinking about a 3060.-nothing less then a 4090 will do you good. all the rest is worthless"

 

[Bill_Bright]

OF course I'm not joking. Doesn't the sound of electrons flowing up and down those wires just make you crazy?

Then if you are not joking and you hear the current flowing through wires, then (1) you are not human, (2), you have 35,000 volts running through high-tension wires in your house, or (3) you have a grounding issue. Pretty sure you are human and while you might live under high-tension wires, that typically is not allowed. So that leaves a grounding issue.

To that, every home and every computer user should have access to a AC Outlet Tester to ensure the wall outlet is properly wired and grounded to Earth ground. I recommend one with a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) indicator as it can be used to test bathroom and kitchen outlets (outlets near water) too. These testers can be found for your type and voltage outlet, foreign or domestic, (like this one for the UK, or this one for German outlets) at most home improvement stores, or even the electrical department at Wal-Mart. Use it to test all the outlets in the home and if a fault is shown, have it fixed by a qualified electrician.

I asked about the item I linked.

You did. You also said why ("outages") which I addressed initially and again in my last post.

Good luck with your problem.

 

[qxp]

Do you have a link where I can learn more?

I also recall that one can solder to aluminum if one uses an ultra-sonic tip (to remove oxidation faster than it can form)

Here is a takeapart video that shows APC UPS (its not just CyberPower) having a failed connection at the transformer:

As you can see in the video they did solder a copper wire to aluminum wire, only for the contact to go bad. The way they packaged it you would expect an initially good connection to go bad because joining such dissimilar metals creates a lot of brittle intermetallic compounds that are very susceptible to vibration.

This is pretty much what happened when people first tried to use aluminum wire in housing - initially good joints would go bad over time causing fires. Took a while to develop regulations that specified how exactly to make aluminum wire connections that would stay working.

Unfortunately, they don't say whether a given UPS has aluminum or copper transformer, so if you want to be safe get an old UPS or an industrial one (like meant for servers). Anything new in the $100-200 is probably using aluminum.

 

[Wirko]

also recall that one can solder to aluminum if one uses an ultra-sonic tip (to remove oxidation faster than it can form)

Maybe. A proper solution (not the only one) is to put a terminal block made of stainless steel between aluminium and copper wires. Besides, the transformer wire itself might be made of CCA (copper-clad aluminium), which would also eliminate the issue of incompatible metals.

 

[R-T-B]

View attachment 375345

I bet y'all are a blast at parties

Your in a forum of nerds my man. We don't get invited to parties without D&D involved.

 

[Wirko]

for surge protection, especially from lightning strikes, it is important that the devices being protected have *only* *one* electrical connection. For example, a good connection is an electronic clock plugged into surge protector. A dodgy connection is a computer plugged into surge protector and having cat6 cable connected to the network card going somewhere else. The reason is that a lightning strike creates fast changing magnetic field which induces high voltages and/or currents in any nearby loop of wire. The bigger the area of the loop the more the effect. Even though a network card technically has isolated network ports the isolation is not enough to protect against lightning strike within a few hundred meters. To have proper protection for the computer either use surge protector with a pass-through surge protected ethernet port (I don't know of any with more than 100Mbit rating), or use Wifi or fiber optic.

Thanks for mentioning this, and we should talk about it on more occasions. I have had some equipment damage, including the PC's ethernet port, that I could only explain by induction - it was in a quite large loop (like 10-20 m²) formed by ground (protective earth) wires and ethernet cables over two floors. A surge protector, line conditioner or UPS wouldn't have helped; actually the switch on the PC's power strip was off when lightning struck about 100 metres away. Apart from what you mention, possible (more or less impractical) solutions would be (1) using an isolating transformer to power the PC, (2) pulling some plugs out of the wall in a thunderstorm, (3) running an additional ground wire parallel to ethernet cable to connect equipment at both sides and close the ground loop or (4) installing a cheap sacrificial ethernet switch just next to the PC. I do (2) but will also implement (3).

 

[Shrek]

Here is a takeapart video that shows APC UPS (its not just CyberPower) having a failed connection at the transformer:

As you can see in the video they did solder a copper wire to aluminum wire, only for the contact to go bad. The way they packaged it you would expect an initially good connection to go bad because joining such dissimilar metals creates a lot of brittle intermetallic compounds that are very susceptible to vibration.

This is pretty much what happened when people first tried to use aluminum wire in housing - initially good joints would go bad over time causing fires. Took a while to develop regulations that specified how exactly to make aluminum wire connections that would stay working.

I doubt they used ultrasonic soldering of aluminum, which might have avoided the issue

Ultrasonic Soldering of Aluminum

Apart from what you mention, possible (more or less impractical) solutions would be (1) using an isolating transformer to power the PC

Not sure how this would help, as the surge would still pass through the transformer.

(3) running an additional ground wire

One really wants to avoid forming a ground loop

 

[qxp]

I doubt they used ultrasonic soldering of aluminum, which might have avoided the issue

Ultrasonic Soldering of Aluminum

Curious, this paper is from 1957 - clearly this goes way back. Unfortunately I can't read the details as it is behind the paywall.
From the abstract they studied resistance of joints to corrosion. What is relevant in the transformer case is mechanical strength of the joint.

Not sure how this would help, as the surge would still pass through the transformer.

The transformer would act as a choke for any differential current. They are designed to operate at 50-60 Hz, and the big iron core will attenuate any differential surge passing through. It would not expect it to do much for surges where power cable is only one part of the loop.

 

[Shrek]

Then mark your calendar because surge and spike protectors wear out and so it is recommended surge and spike protectors be replaced every 2 years.

Could not the same be said for the surge protector built into a UPS?

The transformer would act as a choke for any differential current. They are designed to operate at 50-60 Hz, and the big iron core will attenuate any differential surge passing through. It would not expect it to do much for surges where power cable is only one part of the loop.

Got it

Iron core transformers are at not good at high frequency, and in this case that is a virtue (so it doesn't need to be isolating, that was the bit that confused me).

 

[Bill_Bright]

In reference to that APC video, note he said that was one of many units he bought, and the only one that failed. I have tried to find other cases of problems with APC and aluminum transformers and wiring. I could not. It appears nearly all of the APC issues are based on the same, nearly 2 year old report that has gone viral. So I think it important not to blow the issue unfairly out of proportion.

Once he took it apart, he could not find any burnt or arc marks on any of the circuits and could not smell any significant amounts. Only after removing the transformer did he see some "minor" evidence of heat and a "slight" odd smell. He did notice with his meter the transformer had a "open". If a circuit is to fail, you want it to open rather than short - so that is good.

I am just saying, one failure out of his "many" units does not indicate a major problem or trend.

Also, it should be noted there is nothing wrong with using aluminum "IF" done properly. Clearly, the maker of that transformer didn't do it properly. I note neither APC nor CyberPower manufacture transformers. APC "may" have been ripped off unknowingly as well.

If I was doing quality assurance, I don't see me tearing apart a transformer to see how it is made. I would test it to see if it met electrical requirements, but that is probably it. I would hope today, APC has gone with a different source for their transformers, and a more robust QA inspection. Fingers crossed.

dissimilar metals

Yeah, that's the issue. When dissimilar metals like aluminum and copper come into contact with each other in the presence of an electrolyte, galvanic corrosion can occur. In the case of bonded joints of these two metals, if not done properly, that corrosion can (eventually will) weaken the joint. That appears to be what happened in that transformer. I have to wonder what the electrolyte was that became the catalysts there. Air is not an electrolyte. There must have been some contaminates that got in there somehow during assembly. Another reason to go with a different source for the transformers.

Because of the copper shortage back in the 50s and 60s, as noted above, many homes were built using aluminum wiring. Mine is one of them. Fortunately for me, it was done right. They used proper gauge wiring, and all the outlets and breakers were designed for use with aluminum. Over the years, there have been several remodeling projects that used copper wires. Fortunately again, where new copper was bonded to old aluminum, proper bonding was done so no worries here about galvanic corrosion.

Could not the same be said for the surge protector built into a UPS?

I have wondered that too. Most UPSs have two sides to their output - side one is supported by battery and the other by surge and spike protection only. I suspect you are correct with cheap budget, basic battery backup UPS. But for the better UPS, both sides are protected by advanced, "active" intelligence of the AVR feature and therefor, not susceptible to such aging issues as a basic "passive" surge and spike protector is. I note if you look at essentially all my posts on this subject, I repeatedly say "good" UPS with AVR. Just like power supplies, there are good UPS, and cheap, budget UPS that need to be avoided at all costs.

 

[qxp]

Could not the same be said for the surge protector built into a UPS?

That's an interesting question ! Personally, I think the article overstates the issue a bit.
Here is a datasheet for automotive varistor that has a chart showing current rating versus pulse repetitions:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/40/GlassMLV-3162649.pdf

As you can see it does not go down to zero and there is a curve for infinite pulse repetitions. A good analog model is a steel spring - it can take infinite amount of small deformations, can take some fixed number of large ones over elastic limit and will break if you go over tensile strength limit.

So the surge protector you buy has a pulse rating which tells you the maximum pulse it would protect against, and if it was well designed when it encounters much smaller pulses it should just keep working - the rating is not cumulative.

 

[Hankieroseman]

I doubt they used ultrasonic soldering of aluminum, which might have avoided the issue

Ultrasonic Soldering of Aluminum




Not sure how this would help, as the surge would still pass through the transformer.



One really wants to avoid forming a ground loop

I've got one of those UPS models. It'll be 4 years old next month.

 

[Shrek]

That's an interesting question ! Personally, I think the article overstates the issue a bit.
Here is a datasheet for automotive varistor that has a chart showing current rating versus pulse repetitions:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/40/GlassMLV-3162649.pdf

As you can see it does not go down to zero and there is a curve for infinite pulse repetitions. A good analog model is a steel spring - it can take infinite amount of small deformations, can take some fixed number of large ones over elastic limit and will break if you go over tensile strength limit.

So the surge protector you buy has a pulse rating which tells you the maximum pulse it would protect against, and if it was well designed when it encounters much smaller pulses it should just keep working - the rating is not cumulative.

I tend to get surge protectors that use more than just varistors, the input coils on the Tripp-Lite isobar reflect the pulse back.

The OP's original suggestion also has gas tube protection.

I recall seeing neon lights on the power board of a Mac Plus and realizing that this was surge protection.

 

[qxp]

I tend to get surge protectors that use more than just varistors.

Of course, surge protectors can also use coils and capacitors. You can also have electronic circuits, but that's more expensive. Coils and capacitors just spread the pulse around and mostly don't absorb it. They can still be damaged, but with good construction the threshold is pretty high. The varistor, on the other hand, absorbs pulse energy. That why the varistor rating is in Joules - it can only take so much before it overheats and stops functioning. Since the pulse is short, heatsinks don't help - you just need a bigger varistor, or better material.

I got curious and tried computing how much heat you would get. Not sure what the heat capacity of a varistor is, but for pure copper - which has high heat capacity, it is 0.385 J/g K. This means that if you put 385 J into a gram of copper it heats up by 1000 degrees. (This is not quite right because the heat capacity is for 25C only, but we are estimating). This is roughly in the ballpark of cheap surge protectors - they promise 300-1000 J protection, some of which is sunk into varistors and some is probably relying on wire voltage drop when the varistor shorts the pulse to ground.

 

[Shrek]

Ah, but the input coils in the Tripp-Lite isobar make for an impedance mismatch for high frequencies and so reflect the pulse back out, which is even better than trying to absorb it.

 

[Bill_Bright]

the rating is not cumulative.

I think that is up for debate. Many, including me, contend constant banging by surges and spikes does result in cumulative effects on some of the devices, increasing their rate of aging. I had it explained to me once as being similar to loud music and jet engine noise on our ears. Eventually, the effects will catch up to us and hearing loss will result.

The facts are, surges and spikes are regular occurrences, even with modern, stable grids. But the vast majority are relatively small so I agree, with a quality design, quality parts, and relatively small anomalies, the surge and spike protector will work fine and last a long time - a lot longer than 2 years. But NOT indefinitely nor capable of enduring infinite hits, even if minor.

But here's the problem. No one (unless a tech/scientist in a proper lab environment) knows how many surges and spikes are hitting our electronics, day in and day out, or how severe those surges and spike may be. So there is no way for us "normal" people to realize the effects they are having on surge and spike protectors. So IMO, that 2 year recommendation is being conservatively safe. Too conservative? Maybe. I would say if you go with a quality Tripp-Lite or Panamax or similar protector, it will last many years under normal use.

Of course, if Mother Nature get mad and targets you directly, nothing will protect you, except a quality backup plan.

 

[Shrek]

I believe that a varistor is similar to many diodes and so might be able to take an indefinite number of small surges, but real life does not limit itself to small pulses.

 

[qxp]

But here's the problem. No one (unless a tech/scientist in a proper lab environment) knows how many surges and spikes are hitting our electronics, day in and day out, or how severe those surges and spike may be. So there is no way for us "normal" people to realize the effects they are having on surge and spike protectors. So IMO, that 2 year recommendation is being conservatively safe. Too conservative? Maybe. I would say if you go with a quality Tripp-Lite or Panamax or similar protector, it will last many years under normal use.

Of course, if Mother Nature get mad and targets you directly, nothing will protect you, except a quality backup plan.

Actually, it should not be difficult to make a device to monitor the surges. Just make a resistor divider and then sample the voltage at high enough frequency (say 1MHz).

You can use a resistor like this for 40kV surges, or put several of them in series to overbuilt:

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-Dale/BFW15M0JF08?qs=DvdeZ6bxTVFC1SuQ9p8Kqg%3D%3D

 

[Shrek]

The inputs to most chips are protected by internal diodes and it is impressive how well it works

Can static KILL your PC? (ft. Electroboom)