Windows 11 24h2 has worse latency than Windows 10 22h2!

[grvn]

Hello!

I've been testing Windows 11 24h2 and I always come back to Windows 10 22h2 due to various reasons.

Mostly relates to gaming performance, which, in my case, is better and smoother on Windows 10. The 1% and 0.1% are higher on Windows 10 for me.

The one glaring issue I have found is that Windows 11 has terrible latency?

I've installed LatencyMon and played one CS2 competitive match, while LatencyMon was running in the background.

These are the results for Windows 10 22h2:

These are the results for Windows 11 24h2:

Note that the same drivers, same config, same settings etc. have been used on both Windows 10 / 11.

As you can well see, the latency is just atrocious in Windows 11!

	Windows 10 22h2	Windows 11 24h2	Difference (%)
Current Interrupt Process Latency	25.90	78.70	148.23 %
Highest measured Process Latency	241.30	599.00	148.23 %
Highest ISR execution time	50.15	141.46	182.07 %
Highest DPC execution time	291.40	1725.75	492.22 %

 

[Vayra86]

Your hardware plays a part in this too of course; would be nice to know what system you're doing this on.

 

[Ruru]

The latency thing seems to be in overall hella dependant on the hardware used. No issues here with 11 24H2.

-Crosshair VII (BIOS 5502)
-Ryzen 5800X @ PBO +200 CU -20 allcore
-32GB DDR4-3466 16-18-18-36-1T
-RTX 3080 OC
-Win 11 Pro 24H2

 

[Vayra86]

Here's mine while running an installation / file consistency check.

System in specs to the left. Seems like I'm beating your W1022h2 results. You might need to take a longer look at your system altogether.

It does seem like I have a high pagefault count Gonna look into that. But could be related to actually doing an installation.

 

[grvn]

The latency thing seems to be in overall hella dependant on the hardware used. No issues here with 11 24H2.

System in specs to the left. Seems like I'm beating your W1022h2 results. You might need to take a longer look at your system altogether.

Ryzen 5800x3d / RTX 4070 / Audient ID4 Interface

Also try to play a game while LatencyMon is enabled in background. I played one game of CS2 on both OS.

 

[Ruru]

Ryzen 5800x3d / RTX 4070 / Audient ID4 Interface

Also try to play a game while LatencyMon is enabled in background. I played one game of CS2 on both OS.

Which motherboard and do you have chipset drivers installed?

Forgot to mention that I have the newest which are available on today (12.1.)

 

[Bill_Bright]

I don't really see how such a comparison can be done fairly. There are just too many variables at play here.

As others noted, hardware plays a part here. In fact, it plays a HUGE part. And the problem is hardware tends to be optimized to work best with the operating system that was current at the time the HW was designed.

Similar conditions apply to the drivers of such hardware. Yes, developers may be able to create W11 drivers for that 5 year old graphics card, but will it be as efficient as W10 drivers running in W10? I don't know - and because I don't know, how can I say it is a fair comparison? I can't.

My point is, I don't think it totally fair to compare W10 and W11 results when running both OSs on hardware designed for W10. Same applies if running both on W11 hardware.

I just don't see how any test computer can be configured so it will impose the exact same conditions on 2 different operating systems.

And comparing W10 hardware running W10 with W11 hardware running W11 would be comparing apples to oranges. Or at least a 2015 Honda Accord with a 2021 Honda Accord.

Another problem is the operating systems themselves and how they manage resources. Both operating systems, for example, perform various "housekeeping" chores in the background and when we humans are idle. These include indexing, security scans, checking for and installing updates, defragging hard drives or running TRIM and wear-leveling on SSDs.

How would one ensure resource utilization for background tasks and during idle times are exactly equal? I don't see how.

 

[phanbuey]

I don't really see how such a comparison can be done fairly. There are just too many variables at play here.

As others noted, hardware plays a part here. In fact, it plays a HUGE part. And the problem is hardware tends to be optimized to work best with the operating system that was current at the time the HW was designed.

Similar conditions apply to the drivers of such hardware. Yes, developers may be able to create W11 drivers for that 5 year old graphics card, but will it be as efficient as W10 drivers running in W10? I don't know - and because I don't know, how can I say it is a fair comparison? I can't.

My point is, I don't think it totally fair to compare W10 and W11 results when running both OSs on hardware designed for W10. Same applies if running both on W11 hardware.

I just don't see how any test computer can be configured so it will impose the exact same conditions on 2 different operating systems.

And comparing W10 hardware running W10 with W11 hardware running W11 would be comparing apples to oranges. Or at least a 2015 Honda Accord with a 2021 Honda Accord.

Another problem is the operating systems themselves and how they manage resources. Both operating systems, for example, perform various "housekeeping" chores in the background and when we humans are idle. These include indexing, security scans, checking for and installing updates, defragging hard drives or running TRIM and wear-leveling on SSDs.

How would one ensure resource utilization for background tasks and during idle times are exactly equal? I don't see how.

This. Also latency mon varies wildly with run to run variance for software and priority control -- For instance if I set it to realtime priority, I will get a different result than if I leave it at normal. If i watch a youtube video vs don't touch the machine etc.

Add to the variable priority and IO boosting that the OS does on foreground apps and its almost impossible to know why something is happening. Real world benchmarks (a good variety of them) are better in this regard. If you have latency issues on your foreground app, LatencyMon is good at ferreting out what the offending driver is, but it's not a reliable platform benchmark.

 

[Ruru]

I don't really see how such a comparison can be done fairly. There are just too many variables at play here.

Exactly. Though it's still interesting to see the differences between different hardware.

edit: should've read your entire post as you said practically the same

 

[Onasi]

Oh good, we are back to using LatMon to assess whether or not one system is “snappier” than the other version. In short - yes, 11, at least in its NOT heavily debloated form on average does have more latency than 10. Just like 10 had higher latency than 7 - more things going on in the OS will do that. It’s also hardware dependent, as already mentioned, a lot of people with NV cards see higher latency because of the NV driver. NV claimed to “fix” it, but it seems to be hit and miss, so the actual result will vary. It also has run to run variance because of background tasks.

But most importantly - it’s an irrelevant metric. It has its uses for its intended purpose of seeing if something messes with a PC meant for audio work, but it’s irrelevant for gaming. It’s not showing what you think it does. You want to prove actual tangible latency difference in game - get an LDAT or at least an NV Reflex Analyzer screen and mouse to actually measure end to end system latency. You probably won’t see anything meaningful there, though.

 

[grvn]

Oh good, we are back to using LatMon to assess whether or not one system is “snappier” than the other version. In short - yes, 11, at least in its NOT heavily debloated form on average does have more latency than 10. Just like 10 had higher latency than 7 - more things going on in the OS will do that. It’s also hardware dependent, as already mentioned, a lot of people with NV cards see higher latency because of the NV driver. NV claimed to “fix” it, but it seems to be hit and miss, so the actual result will vary. It also has run to run variance because of background tasks.

But most importantly - it’s an irrelevant metric. It has its uses for its intended purpose of seeing if something messes with a PC meant for audio work, but it’s irrelevant for gaming. It’s not showing what you think it does. You want to prove actual tangible latency difference in game - get an LDAT or at least an NV Reflex Analyzer screen and mouse to actually measure end to end system latency. You probably won’t see anything meaningful there, though.

For me is simple as showing that same config / same drivers / same settings / both Windows debloated to a certain degree provide inherently different results and Windows 10 just provides more consistent / smoother performance for me.

Besides the random frame-spikes I have on Windows 11 24h2, the alt-tabbing issues I also have on 24h2, Windows 10 doesn't have this or if it has is at a much lower degree.

How would one ensure resource utilization for background tasks and during idle times are exactly equal? I don't see how.

At this point I ready don't care because it's the same configs, same debloat so it's up the the OS. Not my fault Windows 11 for me... is just worse than Windows 10 on most aspects. Even desktop navigation is snappier on 10. Windows 11 seems... "heavy" with those animations etc but that's another discussion.

Which motherboard and do you have chipset drivers installed?

Aorus Elite X570 - latest chipset drivers.

 

[phanbuey]

For me is simple as showing that same config / same drivers / same settings / both Windows debloated to a certain degree provide inherently different results and Windows 10 just provides more consistent / smoother performance for me.

But you're not really showing that - imagine you're showing heartbeat rate between two different individuals and stating based on one being faster or slower stating that they're 'healthier' or 'stronger' for instance.

It's not a cross platform benchmark, it's a diagnostic tool - your W11 may very well be faster and more responsive from your result - you don't know with that tool.

Think of it more like an ekg to detect an irregular heartbeat and (to stretch the analogy further) where it's coming from. It's great for diagnosing when you have issues but your actual heartbeat being slightly faster or slower can be totally irrelevant.

 

[Ruru]

Aorus Elite X570 - latest chipset drivers.

Interesting. What you use as your sound output?

I have bluetooth headphones, probably my latency would drop even a bit with the motherboard's audio.

 

[grvn]

Interesting. What you use as your sound output?

Audient ID4 Interface.

But you're not really showing that - imagine you're showing heartbeat rate between two different individuals and stating based on one being faster or slower stating that they're 'healthier' or 'stronger' for instance.

It's not a cross platform benchmark, it's a diagnostic tool - your W11 may very well be faster and more responsive from your result - you don't know with that tool.

Think of it more like an ekg to detect an irregular heartbeat and (to stretch the analogy further) where it's coming from. It's great for diagnosing when you have issues but your actual heartbeat being slightly faster or slower can be totally irrelevant.

If i consistently provide the same results then it shows a pattern.

 

[phanbuey]

Audient ID4 Interface.


If i consistently provide the same results then it shows a pattern.

Sure but you don't know WHY that pattern is so. It could be that having lower latency mon latency at baseline actually means a slower system... i.e. you don't know if it's good, bad, intended, unintended etc.

 

[Onasi]

If i consistently provide the same results then it shows a pattern.

You will get consistently lowest latency readings on a clock-locked Sandy/Ivy platform running a stripped down Windows 7. Doesn’t mean one should do it.

And no, seeing that 24H2 has a new kernel, any comparison with 10 is essentially impossible. You are not comparing apples to apples. Any “pattern” that exists is just you confirming your own biases. We have been over this already in the 24H2 thread you spammed previously - you having issues does not, in fact, prove said issues are widespread and what you are doing now is trying to retroactively rationalize why you THINK those issues exist.

 

[Ruru]

Audient ID4 Interface.

Ah, external DAC? Makes things even more interesting.

Have you tried running your RAM at stock JEDEC speeds aka without XMP?

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Yes, W11 is bloated with more services than W10. You don't need latencymon to tell you that.


Latencymon has not been updated for at least 3 years.

There's no other program to validate the accuracy of latencymon.

In at least 15 years, I've never seen anyone accurately diagnose a PC using latencymon program.

This is wasted thread space, but yes enjoy the debate about this piece of shit diagnostic software. Have fun with that.

 

[Bill_Bright]

At this point I ready don't care because it's the same configs, same debloat so it's up the the OS.

Well, you asked the question so not sure why you don't care. Nevertheless, if you feel having the same configs makes the comparison fair, then you missed the entire point my post or the part of my post you quoted.

What seems evident is you want to blame W11 and not the test platform. And I already explained how that skews the results with several others agreeing. So I see no reason to continue the discussion. Have a good day.

 

[unwind-protect]

This matches some results that musicians are getting.

 

[3valatzy]

In short - yes, 11, at least in its NOT heavily debloated form on average does have more latency than 10. Just like 10 had higher latency than 7 - more things going on in the OS will do that.

We know that the higher hardware requirements of "new" operating systems are simply artificially created marketing tactics (or so called planned obsolescence) in order to sell the "new", "faster" hardware.
The best is to return to Windows 7 now.

 

[grvn]

Have you tried running your RAM at stock JEDEC speeds aka without XMP?

Will try but I use my PC for gaming, so not using XMP results in lower performance, although I have the 5800x3d CPU which is not really dependent on the RAM speeds...

 

[Vayra86]

This. Also latency mon varies wildly with run to run variance for software and priority control -- For instance if I set it to realtime priority, I will get a different result than if I leave it at normal. If i watch a youtube video vs don't touch the machine etc.

Add to the variable priority and IO boosting that the OS does on foreground apps and its almost impossible to know why something is happening. Real world benchmarks (a good variety of them) are better in this regard. If you have latency issues on your foreground app, LatencyMon is good at ferreting out what the offending driver is, but it's not a reliable platform benchmark.

The first run of LatencyMon I had the file checker stuck on a single file and suddenly I had a 10K (!!) result on dpc latency.

You cant just take it at face value indeed. Its a real challenge to remove all variables and just look at latency between systems. If not impossible.

We know that the higher hardware requirements of "new" operating systems are simply artificially created marketing tactics (or so called planned obsolescence) in order to sell the "new", "faster" hardware.
The best is to return to Windows 7 now.

Not really W7 is out of support and security updates.

Yes, W11 is bloated with more services than W10. You don't need latencymon to tell you that.


Latencymon has not been updated for at least 3 years.

There's no other program to validate the accuracy of latencymon.

In at least 15 years, I've never seen anyone accurately diagnose a PC using latencymon program.

This is wasted thread space, but yes enjoy the debate about this piece of shit diagnostic software. Have fun with that.

I was kinda trying to say this but in a roundabout way and supported by proof.

We have a person here that just wants to tell us W11 24H2 is gutter trash. I can appreciate its like that for HIM and HIS system, but it starts to look more and more like an issue of PEBCAK.
I just put my N=1 up against his, and that's really the end of it.

Yes, W11 is bloated with more services than W10. You don't need latencymon to tell you that.

Really depends on the installation... the version.... whether IoT Enterprise or not... and numerous other things. Most of these services aren't even active most of the time, on either OS, so they're not adding to latency.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

I was kinda trying to say this but in a roundabout way and supported by proof.

We have a person here that just wants to tell us W11 24H2 is gutter trash. I can appreciate its like that for HIM and HIS system, but it starts to look more and more like an issue of PEBCAK.
I just put my N=1 up against his, and that's really the end of it.

Sorry. I've read this topic multiple times every year for very many years.

So, this time being aggressive and attacking it. I mean look at the site. It's add bloated garbage. Commercial between every paragraph. Pure joke click bait garbage.

If this was a useful tool for windows diagnostics and had good reports, guys like Bill_Bright would be up my ass making such claims.

_____

But, you have a person, like myself, that specializes in creating a fast low latency computer from overclocking and tweaking and running that hobby 2 decades competitively.... Latencymon is a bullshit program.

24H2 is fine. Some systems won't like it. Most modern systems will be just fine. It's not like you really have a choice anyways. Windows will auto install it for you. Enjoy.

My apologies for the sandpaper attitude towards it. Nothing personal to anyone. Even those I quote or mention.

 

[Vayra86]

Sorry. I've read this topic multiple times every year for very many years.

So, this time being aggressive and attacking it. I mean look at the site. It's add bloated garbage. Commercial between every paragraph. Pure joke click bait garbage.

If this was a useful tool for windows diagnostics and had good reports, guys like Bill_Bright would be up my ass making such claims.

_____

But, you have a person, like myself, that specializes in creating a fast low latency computer from overclocking and tweaking and running that hobby 2 decades competitively.... Latencymon is a bullshit program.

24H2 is fine. Some systems won't like it. Most modern systems will be just fine. It's not like you really have a choice anyways. Windows will auto install it for you. Enjoy.

My apologies for the sandpaper attitude towards it. Nothing personal to anyone. Even those I quote or mention.

Frankly I've never used it and similarly frowned at all the CS(2) ultra pro's chasing their 300 FPS pipe dream that still relies mostly on the server and the internet connection But yeah... measuring latency. I just feel latency. Much more reliable - its either responsive or too slow.