Advice for DDR5 CU-DIMM 2 x 24gb 8400mhz

[lawshadow]

Hi all,

So i am contemplating a DDR5 CU-DIMM 2 x 24gb 8400mhz for a Intel Z890 + 285k
Motherboard of choice = Asrock Z890i Nova (ITX) is a 2 dimm slot mb.

Right now im looking at 3 brands all are CU-DIMM @ 8400mhz kits

G.Skill Trident Z5 CK
Team Group XTREEM CKD
Kingston Fury Renegade

As for the G.Skill they have no proper cooling on the PMIC as far as i can tell and only 1 xmp profile to choose from. DDR5 seems to not like temps higher then 55c...could be wrong here.
Team Group has a better heat sink and has 2 xmp profiles to choose from.
Kingston Renegade don't know how well their heatsinks are any input is appreciated it comes with a nice 4 options xmp profiles.

ARGB or NO ARGB on DDR5 heard it may corrupt SPD is this true? Or is it better to completely ignore ARGB?

Will use 3 x 40mm fan RAM cooler no matter which brand CU-DIMM to lower the temps.

Lastly which brand should i pick when it comes down to stability, quality, reliability and which brand with general consensus is deemed a good ram with the least amount of corrupt bad experiences?
And yes i only pick RAM from the QVL motherboard listings.

Your input is greatly appreciated thx in advance!

 

[Contra]

In the last few builds I used Kingston Fury Renegade (w/o rgb) 2x32 non-cu ddr5 and I really liked their stability. But one TG kit burned out.

 

[ir_cow]

As for the G.Skill they have no proper cooling on the PMIC as far as i can tell and only 1 xmp profile to choose from.

Most brands do. Patriot is one of my top choices because it has 3 profile and probably the best performance from just XMP. They got the lowest tRFC. (Doesn't mean other brands aren't overall better)

DDR5 seems to not like temps higher then 55c...could be wrong here.

Only if you are ocing the memory. Changing the tREFi and CAS mainly. Others sub-timings aren't that dependent on temps, though temps go up with voltage and frequency independently.

Team Group has a better heat sink and has 2 xmp profiles to choose from.
Kingston Renegade don't know how well their heatsinks are any input is appreciated it comes with a nice 4 options xmp profiles.

Eh they are all pretty thin and unless you put a fan on it, doesn't matter much which you pick after it warms up. Teamgroup Xtreme none RGB has a heat-fin stack on top. Hasn't tested the temps yet though, but it has weight too.

ARGB or NO ARGB on DDR5 heard it may corrupt SPD is this true? Or is it better to completely ignore ARGB?

I've heard of this for DDR4.

Will use 3 x 40mm fan RAM cooler no matter which brand CU-DIMM to lower the temps.

Nice! Yeah fan is essential when tweaking.

Lastly which brand should i pick when it comes down to stability, quality, reliability and which brand with general consensus is deemed a good ram with the least amount of corrupt bad experiences?

I'll leave that up to other people opinions. I will say lifetime warranty only matters if the company is still around and easy to RMA with.

And yes i only pick RAM from the QVL motherboard listings.

Not very important. 95% of the kits I test aren't on the QVL.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I agree with everything you said above, except the following - "kinda"!

Not very important. 95% of the kits I test aren't on the QVL.

IMO, QVLs are very important - I mean where else can one go to look for compatibility? The board's marketing hype? Amazon? Newegg? PCPartPicker? eBay? Microcenter? We can't trust marketing weenies to give us the correct time of day. And the retailers are just that, retailers. They sure don't have professional testing labs, nor do they pay to have professional testing labs test for compatibility.

The RAM makers? They aren't going to test every board and CPU combination with each of their RAM offerings either. And of course, Crucial is not going recommend G-Skill RAM, or vice versa.

So the ONLY source of this critical information we have are these QVLs. Therefore, when researching for compatible components, QVLs are very important.

This is especially so for CPUs but for RAM too. HOWEVER, unlike CPUs where boards will only support 1 brand (either Intel or AMD) and only a few models within that brand, there is NO WAY motherboard makers can test every possible RAM brand and model number for compatibility.

So like ir__cow, I rarely use listed RAM. HOWEVER (this is were the "kinda" comes in), to ensure compatibility, I buy RAM with the same specs as listed RAM. I also stick with established brand names. This is because odds are in our favor the major brands will manufacturer modules and sticks that most accurately adhere to published specs, lot after lot after lot. This is what allows us to mix brands on the same board and still have all the RAM work (even in dual channel mode) as expected. I still recommend adding RAM in matched pairs, but I have seen 4 stick set ups with 4 different brands still work just fine.

Let me quickly add I am specifically talking about the most recent generations of RAM, motherboards, and CPUs (and associated memory controllers). This is because in recent years, the manufacturing processes and techniques for the raw materials to make the components, and the manufacturing processes and techniques used to manufacture these components have all advanced and improved so significantly, thus ensuring extremely tight tolerances and compliance to published specs - even among different brands.

So even factoring in the human factor (we still can't make perfection 100% of the time), odds are greatly in our favor, even with the tiny deviances from the published specs, the improved capabilities in memory control and utilization ensures even RAM from different makers designed and manufactured to the same spec will still play well together.

So bottom line, since there is no other place to check, I recommend users refer to the RAM QVLs for compatible RAM. But again, because there are too many RAM makers and models, you do NOT have to pick listed RAM but you should pick RAM with the same specs as listed RAM.

@lawshadow - the use of heatsinks on RAM does NOT guarantee the RAM will be properly cooled. In fact, a defective or poorly designed heat sink or a heat sink that is improperly applied (this includes the TIM - thermal interface material) may actually interfere and be detrimental to the most efficient cooling.

And perhaps most importantly, it is YOUR responsibility to ensure your case is providing an adequate supply of cool air flowing through the case. The best RAM heatsinks (CPU cooler too) is pretty much ineffective if there is an inadequate flow of cool air there to move the devices' heat away from the device and out of the case.

 

[ir_cow]

Truly Motherboard QVLs lists these days are good for one thing. That is tell you what the "highest" speed was tested in a lab setting with a bin CPU. No voltages mentioned or how long the test where run to check for stability. Just that it booted at that speed. Pretty worthless.

Now memory manufacturers like Micron or G.Skill I trust their QVL lists a bit more. Especially Micron. They pretty much just stick to JEDEC so that is very helpful for pre-builts.

On that note. 8400 MT/s CUDIMM on ITX isn't nearly close to the limit. CUDIMM is very new, so I would update the BIOS first before enabling a XMP profile.

 

[Bill_Bright]

So with new builds, you pick out your RAM first, then use the RAM maker's QVLs to find a motherboard and CPU that will support that RAM? ???

 

[ir_cow]

So with new builds, you pick out your RAM first, then use the RAM maker's QVLs to find a motherboard and CPU that will support that RAM? ???

Only if you are at the bleeding edge. Otherwise I still don't think it matters much unless you are putting some into a pre-built (Dell, HP, etc).

For example. G.SKILL only has two motherboards on their list for 9600 MT/s. While I know the MSI Z890 Unify-X can run 9600 MT/s, it is still a very high speed right now and just 2 BIOS ago, 9600 MT/s didn't work for me even though 9600 MT is on the QVL list...

 

[sneekypeet]

Realize who you are dealing with Bill.

Both IR and I use one motherboard to test all the rams, and they work, while not on the QVL.

IMHO QVL is lame as addressed earlier.
If you buy your CPU and motherboard, research what speeds are possible, you should be able to plug and play any supported RAM, as long as the IMC and board are willing. This is where it helps to get top tier. They tend to do more BIOS updates for added support, and it eliminates all the variables for something like a QVL to matter much to us.

I saw this conversation in another thread, and it nearly prompted me to start a " QVL is worthless; Prove me wrong" but I digress as it would likely be a shit show.

Not trying to put words in IRs mouth, but we have a much different take to what works versus what the manufacturers offer in that regard.

EDIT: One last bit for the OP to go on, IR is spot on with Patriot! The others you mentioned open timings to hit the speed, and do not care to deliver the potential of said speed.

 

[ir_cow]

@sneekypeet oddly, so far only two DDR5 kit that has given me any trouble. Those both had JEDEC 5600 MT/s. Both was fixed by a BIOS update.

@lawshadow of these three, pretty much grab whatever is cheapest and or looks good to you, they are going to give you the XMP performance. Overclocking is a different, but it can also be luck of the draw as to how far you can go with X voltage.

G.Skill Trident Z5 CK
Team Group XTREEM CKD
Kingston Fury Renegade

 

[sneekypeet]

I had an OG xpg Ddr5 kit with issues. They took them back. Otherwise everything just worked.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Realize who you are dealing with Bill.

Both IR and I use one motherboard to test all the rams, and they work, while not on the QVL.

IMHO QVL is lame as addressed earlier.

Well, okay. That's fine. And I respect that - as well as the expertise you both have demonstrated over the years.

But you both are highly experienced with dozens, perhaps 100s of builds and years doing this under your belts. So is it fine to announce to the rest of the world, as an absolute statement, on a site folks with much less, little or no experience come to for technical advice, that QVLs are lame, not important or even worthless?

Only if you are at the bleeding edge.

Exactly. And how many readers - even among regulars - of this site fall into that category? That is, where they actually buying and building "bleeding edge" computers?

I am not strapped for cash and I always buy more than I "need" because I am an enthusiasts too. But I can't afford bleeding edge - at least I sure cannot afford to "stay" (constantly evolve to stay) bleeding edge. That's typically not sound practice anyway since bleeding edge tends to be too close to "beta" and buggy.

It seems you both forget you are NOT talking to a crowd of experts with deep pockets. And you assume what works (or doesn't work) for you is how it is for the masses. Sorry, but that just is not true.

So I ask again, where does a "normal person" go - someone who doesn't have $400 in their budget just for RAM, or nearly 30,000 posts and 15+ years expertise - where do they go to learn what might be compatible with the motherboard and CPU they are buying, or have already bought?

The motherboard's QVL (which is where motherboard user guides tell us to look) is still the best place to at least start their research.

G.SKILL only has two motherboards on their list for 9600 MT/s.

Only two motherboards? !!!

You know what that tell me? It tells me G.Skill (who's RAM I really like and use often, BTW) has very limited resources to expend on compatibility research. That is NOT a criticism, just a simple observation.

My point is, if our (those of us who come here to help) goal is to help posters, we need to know, and address our audience, the group that represent the vast majority of users out there - and not the tiny small handful of advanced enthusiasts sitting out at the extremes.

Is it really helping readers who come here looking for compatible RAM advice to claim QVLs are "lame" or "worthless" then not even give them any advice on how to find compatible RAM?

 

[ir_cow]

Is it really helping readers who come here looking for compatible RAM advice to claim QVLs are "lame" or "worthless" then not even give them any advice on how to find compatible RAM?

I explained how to find compatible ram. Look at the highest supported speed and don't buy that.

 

[sneekypeet]

technical advice, that QVLs are lame, not important or even worthless?

Yes. CPU and motherboard restrict speed options, the better information is to lead the new user to the right options for his gear.

 

[InVasMani]

Look at highest supported speed and don't buy that. That is pretty sound advice if you want to avoid teething problems. I tend to buy a kit and board stronger than I expect it to run at potentially in case I need to drop it down a tier or two on performance. It's a bit more complicated though with 4 DIMM setups expectations kind of drop like a rock. I actually was pleasantly surprised. I think the board tends to be the more important part of the equation, but kit and IMC play a role as well. It's important to look over support of parts being used together carefully if you don't want to run into unexpected issues.

 

[Bill_Bright]

the better information is to lead the new user to the right options for his gear.

And that's by telling the first time builder to,

Look at the highest supported speed and don't buy that.

??? I am sure that is all the advice every person starting out building their own, or wishing to upgrade will ever need.

 

[sneekypeet]

And that's by telling the first time builder to,

Give me the CPU and board you want to buy, look up previously explained specs, advise by experience.

 

[Bill_Bright]

That's fine on a case by case basis - if you are around. Not sure it helps to teach readers how do it themselves for those who want to learn to do so.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

IMHO QVL is lame as addressed earlier.

I saw this conversation in another thread, and it nearly prompted me to start a " QVL is worthless; Prove me wrong" but I digress as it would likely be a shit show.

It's good to see this, I know the other thread. I perhaps don't come across well when trying to explain things. I'm glad it's going smoother for that here than it did for myself, but I'm also not part of the moderation team, which I feel gives you and IR extra credit for knowledge for whatever reason that may be, in some people's eyes.

ALL memory on a specific platform will post and work at JEDEC speeds in 99% of all.

The XMP part of QVL has always been very hit or miss. And most manufacturers did not or would not update QVL lists as time passed or there is/are large gaps in time while they update bios for compatibility perhaps just for memory, but with specific generations of processors. So in most cases, it's really not worth the time to worry on it. If XMP doesn't work, the default JEDEC speed most likely will and you're at least able to use the PC>

Then that's where the TECH(POWERUP!) type forums come in. You have people that specialize in certain tweaking of things and generally don't lead people in the wrong directions. Accurate information backed by others. I had no backup. It showed up here instead. So hats off to that at least.

Peace and be well muchachos

 

[Dorek]

It's good to see this, I know the other thread. I perhaps don't come across well when trying to explain things. I'm glad it's going smoother for that here than it did for myself, but I'm also not part of the moderation team, which I feel gives you and IR extra credit for knowledge for whatever reason that may be, in some people's eyes.

ALL memory on a specific platform will post and work at JEDEC speeds in 99% of all.

The XMP part of QVL has always been very hit or miss. And most manufacturers did not or would not update QVL lists as time passed or there is/are large gaps in time while they update bios for compatibility perhaps just for memory, but with specific generations of processors. So in most cases, it's really not worth the time to worry on it. If XMP doesn't work, the default JEDEC speed most likely will and you're at least able to use the PC>

Then that's where the TECH(POWERUP!) type forums come in. You have people that specialize in certain tweaking of things and generally don't lead people in the wrong directions. Accurate information backed by others. I had no backup. It showed up here instead. So hats off to that at least.

Peace and be well muchachos

Seemed very miss in my case since my kit didnt even boot at jedec until restarting quite a lot of times and theres still issues cold booting.

 

[Bill_Bright]

To be clear, I am NOT saying the QVLs are perfect. But I think reality and the big picture are being overlooked here.

The claim is, ALL RAM QVLs are "lame", "worthless", "not important".

Think about what that means.

It means ASUS, MSI, Gigabyte, ASRock, Intel, Acer, EVGA, Biostar, American Megatrends, AOPEN, Leadtek, Zotac, NZXT, Chaintech, Elitegroup and every other motherboard maker out there are ALL producing worthless lists. Really? Come on!

It means despite the fact these lists typically include dozens and dozens of compatible RAM, rarely include incompatible (I said "rarely" - not "never"), they are still being called worthless. Really? Come on!

What I see happening here is a tiny handful of very experienced "enthusiasts" are not finding a even smaller handful of RAM on the QVLs for a very few motherboards they want to use, and they have therefore, declared ALL QVLs worthless - for everyone.

And when asked, what alternative do "normal", less experienced builders and upgraders have? The answers we get are,

"Look at the highest supported speed and don't buy that."

Really? Look where, I wonder? Is there a list somewhere? And if only the highest speed need be avoided, that seems to suggest the remaining RAM listed must be okay. So if only the highest speed needs to be avoided, how is the entire QVL worthless then? Oh, that's right - there's that mysterious different list out there somewhere, that even newbies are supposed to be aware of.

And the other solution provided for anyone unsure what RAM to buy, all they need to do is,

"Give me the CPU and board you want to buy, look up previously explained specs, advise by experience."

So apparently, every new user out there is suppose to know who SP is and how to contact him. Then, apparently, there are some "previously explained specs" out there somewhere. Where these specs came from and where they are published eludes me. And last, apparently SP has experience with every motherboard, CPU (Intel and AMD) and RAM combination out there too and will provide the necessary information needed for the new builder to buy compatible RAM.

Really? Is "don't pick the fastest" and "call me" really the best advice TPU has to offer?

My advice to new builders and upgraders, as a minimum, has always been and will continue to be - until I am shown a better way - once they have chosen a motherboard, to review the motherboard's memory QVL for compatible RAM. Then select listed RAM or RAM with the same specs as listed RAM. If they wish to go further, they can visit Crucial's memory finder to verify specs.

I like Crucial because Micron is their parent company and makes all their chips. And I trust Micron. But that's me. I note most other RAM makers have similar memory finders for which people can verify compatibility with those brands. PCPartPicker and Newegg Memory Finder can be used to verify compatibility too. None are perfect but are better than guessing and assuming.

 

[sneekypeet]

@Bill_Bright

QVL, simply put, is a list of ram that manufacturers sent in to be verified.
Companies with a ton of resources can fill all QVLs and appear as if they are the only kits that work, when RAM as a product, should work on any compatible system within reasonable speeds. By "should" I mean that AMD may take some tinkering to get it perfect, Intel will work. IF they "shouldn't" work, you send them back and buy another kit.

Patriot is some of the fastest/best bang for the buck on the market, yet they do not fill QVLs, so we should skip them?

I see both sides, but unless it is your first ever build, the QVL offers little more than which RAM maker had the most money to fill more suggestions. the QVL is more marketing imho than a validation of any means.

Maybe I should have started that thread as we are kinda poo poo-ing all over this one.

No offense, but Micron is stability ram, which in your instance is perfect, but it has no performance compared to Hynix. Which by your logic means you should also love KLEVV.

 

[ShrimpBrime]

Seemed very miss in my case since my kit didnt even boot at jedec until restarting quite a lot of times and theres still issues cold booting.

Sounds like an AsRock board acting like an AsRock board. And a great example of qvl trash. Picky cpu memory controller perhaps, but I haven't purchased an AsRock board for nearly 2 decades for certain reasons.

 

[Dorek]

Sounds like an AsRock board acting like an AsRock board. And a great example of qvl trash. Picky cpu memory controller perhaps, but I haven't purchased an AsRock board for nearly 2 decades for certain reasons.

Yeah its qvl rams but failed to post on the tested bios version as well and updating bios to latest its still sometimes not posting. Will be my last asrock board for sure.

 

[Bill_Bright]

No offense, but Micron is stability ram, which in your instance is perfect, but it has no performance compared to Hynix.

First, absolutely no offense taken. We're good!

Second, and in return, no offense, but your comment illustrates the problem here - as I see it.

You (your ilk) see, and only see RAM selection through the eyes of the highly experienced, enthusiast individuals seeking maximum performance - and nothing less will do. This is illustrated by ir_cow who, because QVLs don't list the fastest RAM currently on the market, claims the entire QVL is worthless.

but unless it is your first ever build

See? I've been saying all along "new" builders/upgraders and "less experienced" - but you don't even see them - even though they represent the vast majority of those seeking help. Are there exceptions? Of course. But exceptions don't make the rule.

Do highly experienced builders/upgraders seek help selecting RAM on these forums? No. Again, are there exceptions? Of course. But exceptions don't make the rule.

Do all new builders have deep pockets? No Are all new builders seeking to buy the fastest RAM, fastest CPU, or most powerful graphics card? No. Do all new builders intend to dink with the default settings for clocks, voltages and speeds? NO.

And here's a shocker, I bet, for those of your ilk; are all new builders seeking to build a "gaming" rig? NO!!!

the QVL offers little more than which RAM maker had the most money to fill more suggestions.

Oh come on, SP. Do we need to invest in tin futures again? So now you are suggesting ASUS, Gigabyte, MSI and the other motherboard makers are all "on the take", listing RAM from RAM makers that pay them to do so, and not list others that don't. Yeah right. Wow.

I didn't ever imagine you, SP would stoop to that level of absurdity. Really sad.

FTR, I've also been saying all along we don't have to buy listed RAM, just RAM with the same specs as listed RAM.

Again, you keep claiming the QVLs are worthless but you have NOT provided a viable alternative. Sorry, but neither "you" personally (again, no offense), nor "anything but the fastest" is a viable alternative for the vast majority of those coming to TPU seeking help.

Time to move on.

 

[sneekypeet]

@Bill_Bright

QVL - Myth, Legend, Marketing/Advertising, what is your take?

Through a couple of previous threads, a discussion popped up about the value of a RAM QVL from either the RAM makers or the motherboard makers when building a system. Rather than to clog up other threads, lets have an educated conversation and see of we can come to a consensus of its merrits...

www.techpowerup.com

I will answer all of it there, if you care to repost.