It's happening again, melting 12v high pwr connectors

[Visible Noise]

We've had a steady stream of failing 4090s since launch

Failing is not melting cables. There’s been a steady stream of TV’s going in for repairs too, what’s your point?

OEM PC owners aren't knowledgeable enough to isolate the issue down to a specific component,

Standard support practices are to walk the user through troubleshooting. If someone comes on site they would certainly document what the repair was. But thanks telling me I’m not knowledgeable, even though I spent five doing years in a repair shop doing component level repairs.

You seriously making the argument that OEMs are somehow more competent at building than your average PC user?

Then explain why they aren’t affected. And yes, someone who is trained in a specific assembly process and procedure, who does it a hundred times a day probably is more competent than Joe Shmo ordering parts from Amazon.

The same companies that don't know how to enable XMP or peel off the M.2 thermal pad sticker, let alone properly cool their own systems? The same companies that will put fans right up against a solid front or side panel?

You must be posting from a position of ignorance, none of this applies to my Aurora R15.

Perhaps reflecting on the limits of your experience would be beneficial to you.

 

[taka]

In Der8auer case his cable was faulty already. The mating cycle for this plug is 30-50. I'm pretty sure he used the cable for more than the connector specs related to mating cycle.
For cables in parallel you can apply Ohm's law for resistors in parallel.
1/r1+1/r2+1/r3+1/r4+1/r5+1/r6=1/total resistance.
Any change in contact pressure and surface area on the pins brings more resistance for each cable/pin.
In his case only two of the six pins were in contact as they should. Since only two wires are heating up.

Combine that with 6x2+4 cable issues with small contact area, thin metal used and low contact pressure and add the fact that NVidia did not balanced the wires and there's is your issue.

So there are a lot of factors that can cause this issue. This explains to me why some user have it and some not.

I have an EE degree since 1994 and worked more than 10 years before switching to IT. I had the low voltage license for less than 1000V.
During that time I had seen a lot of issues related to contact area and contact pressure. Mostly on the fuses cabinet and the wall sockets.

 

[evernessince]

Failing is not melting cables. There’s been a steady stream of TV’s going in for repairs too, what’s your point?

In this case I was referring specifically to melting connectors.

Standard support practices are to walk the user through troubleshooting. If someone comes on site they would certainly document want the repair was.

Yes, Indian tech support will run you through a standardized list of troubleshooting steps that will mostly waste your time. Very few of those support agents will actually know how to repair a PC beyond what's listed.

On-site? Very few OEMs offer on-site repair. Dell does for it's enterprise products for thousands of dollars per year. You seem to have a completely unrealistic expectation for the average OEM PC.

Mind you, even in that extremely unrealistic scenario, what does an OEM recording the source of a needed repair have to do with it being reported to the public? Nothing, it would not be made public.

Your argument here is a complete dead end.

But thanks telling me I’m not knowledgeable, even though I spent five years in a repair shop.

Saying that OEM PC users are less knowledgeable than people who build their own PCs isn't controversial.

You are choosing to be offended by including yourself as an average OEM PC buyer. I didn't specifically call you out.

I believe this is just faux outrage on your part to avoid admitting that you missed the very obvious truth that yes, people who buy OEM PCs are often incapable of diagnosing PC issues, let alone something as specific as a problematic connector.

Then explain why they aren’t affected. And yes, someone who is trained in a specific assembly process and procedure, who does it a hundred times a day probably is more competent than Joe Shmo ordering parts from Amazon.

Already did, re-read if you skipped over.

You must be posting from a position of ignorance, none of this applies to my Aurora R15.

Perhaps reflecting on the limits of your experience would be beneficial to you.

No one said anything about your PC or you. You are again chooseing to get offeneded and make personal attacks on others when no one attacked you.

I believe this is called self reporting.

 

[Visible Noise]

listed.

On-site? Very few OEMs offer on-site repair. Dell does for its oenterprise products for thousands of dollars per year. You seem to have a completely unrealistic expectation for the average OEM PC.

Look at the packing slip I posted. Please pay attention to my posts when responding, it’s rude to make someone repeat themselves.

Mind you, even in that extremely unrealistic scenario, what does an OEM recording the source of a needed repair have to do with it being reported to the public?

You don’t think anyone in r/Alienware reports on their repairs? Go take a look.

I believe this is just faux outrage on your part to avoid admitting that you missed the very obvious truth that yes, people who buy OEM PCs are often incapable of diagnosing PC issues, let alone something as specific as a problematic connector

I believe your faux outrage is because you can’t understand that other people don’t have the same priorities as you do. I am perfectly capable of building a PC and I’ve built thousands upon thousands of them in my much younger years. At this point in my life I have other things to take up my time that are more important to me. My time is more valuable than the effort It takes plugging parts into a board.

And the above doesn’t even consider the fact that you can get a quality prebuilt for less than you can buy the parts for. As an example I’ve already posted in the past what I paid for my 4090. It was below list price. How about that 4TB WD 850 black? $100 less than the best PC parts picker price.

PCs and gaming are my hobbies besides my career. Assembling a PC is just as boring as assembling IKEA furniture. I have no interest in it all, just like you can be a car enthusiast without building your own car.

 

[BoggledBeagle]

There is one huge elephant in one German office. And that elephant is thinking:

"Well he said that that cable saw a lot of graphic cards, but less than 100. How many was that? And how exactly did he handle the cable? Was the cable intended to be a test cable, or as a cable for one fixed PC installation? If he tested 100 000 fresh out of the box cables supplied with good brand PSUs, how many of these cables would exhibit significant contact problems, current imbalance and overheating?"

I can tell you, that elephant, that is one smart animal.

 

[deathjester]

Given how the electronics are configured (very limited with only one circuit and combining the load on the GPU side, with only a single shunt resistor) there has to be some difference in the resistance down each of the connections.
Since any potential distance is pretty much irrelevant (as it's going to be down to less than 2%) then there must be an alternative source that is increasing resistance in the setup.
23 Amps - 0.5 ohms (282W)
11 Amps - 1.09 ohms (132W)
8 Amps - 1.5 ohms (96W)
5 Amps - 2.5 ohms (60W)
3 Amps - 4 ohms (36W)
2 Amps - 6 ohms (24W)

Which works out to 630W total, so some of those figures are probably slightly high, but this will be down to fluctuations in the readings.

You're looking at 12x the resistance between the lowest usage and the highest usage, so if there is no issue with the cable, and no issue with the 12V-2x6 connection then it should be fairly easy to test the resistance from the 12V-2x6 connector to the shunt resistor for each of the 12V pins.
Bare in mind here that 4 ohms of resistance is equivalent to around 1000ft of AWG 16 wire, which while not massive is really significant in the above example.

If you can see this difference on the PCB between the shunt resistor and the 12V-2x6 connector then it's a manufacturing issue.

If its not there then it's either the connector which is incorrectly seated creating resistance, or an issue with the cable (unlikely). Especially when other builders are not seeing the same issue.

 

[N/A]

There is one huge elephant in one German

I remember when Louis Ross man repaired a hdmi port and the client plugged it a billion times to see if it works and broke it. People never admit guilt even if the paint is freshly deposited on their bumper. The bull is in a china shop with experience under his belt but his cable was chewed and speued. Why try to unplug it in the first place when it was clearly melted.

 

[BoggledBeagle]

I was not talking about the user who melted the cable, but about Roman drawing conclusion from his cable, that was intended for one PC installation, and not for testing dozens GPUs and for being handled a lot.

He misused the product, and draws some conclusion from it. It is highly unprofessional. He should be better than that.

I can try to answer the elephants question: I think, that from 100 000 fresh out of the box cables supplied with good brand PSUs, not a single one would exhibit a significnt problem leading to damage.

I am afraid that some cables from lesser brands or even some cables from good brands use plugs, that will not tolerate too much use. I will not say that they are one time use only, but If I wanted to use them multiple times, I would check metal contacts well and if needed, repair them (bend them back in shape) so that they can contact pins well.

 

[Vayra86]

Because it isn't common. I did answer. Just because it isn't common doesn't mean its irrelevant. It is a problem. It has already proven to be a problem for no known reason. It's clearly not always the user's fault. It just happens. Does that make you comfortable?



You really should watch the videos and educate yourself before having an opinion. Next thing, you'll be Bill here saying that all these content creators are just making videos for the money.

Influencers? You think Buildzoid is an influencer? Mega level up.

Mate isn't it obvious. @Visible Noise desperately needs to talk the uncertainty out of everyone, because he owns a 4090, so this cannot be true. Screw the fact even a fellow TPU member found himself with a molten 4090 cable one day. That's probably bullshit too.

He didn't buy something bad. That cannot happen. So the cable cannot be bad. His cable hasn't failed. N=1 logic only applies to the sender, not the rest of the world. He then adds all the other cases of non-melted cables and the jury is out. The N=1 logic of every person with a melted cable, meh, they're just fools and Visible Noise is so much smarter than everyone else. Take special note of all those 8 pin pcie cables that burned over the years too! Them too! See! So I'm right!

This is how the mind works and some people evidently have the self reflection skillset of a doornail.

I was not talking about the user who melted the cable, but about Roman drawing conclusion from his cable, that was intended for one PC installation, and not for testing dozens GPUs and for being handled a lot.

He misused the product, and draws some conclusion from it. It is highly unprofessional. He should be better than that.

I can try to answer the elephants question: I think, that from 100 000 fresh out of the box cables supplied with good brand PSUs, not a single one would exhibit a significnt problem leading to damage.

I am afraid that some cables from lesser brands of even some cables from good brands use plugs, that will not tolerate too much use. I will not say that they are one time use only, but If I wanted to use them multiple times, I would check metal contacts well and if needed, repair them (bend them back in shape) so that they can contact pins well.

You're just as hilarious as the guy I just talked about. Professional? What? This is consumer gear.

Did you do all these checks and balances on pcie cables? I never did. They get bent, twisted, plugged in and out multiple times and re-used across multiple systems.
And they all do it admirably.

Go see a doctor, the cognitive dissonance has taken over your logic

 

[mkppo]

This dude is still posting away? Somehow he seems to be trying to defend his credentials when no one questioned it? And throwing personal attacks whenever he gets an opportunity to?

Almost like how he outright lied in one of the other threads and starts to add people to his ignore list when he can't respond back to them anymore. Weird fella

And I do agree with @taka who he insulted for no reason whatsoever by asking where he got his EE degree from. The connector should be 300W max. I don't see what the problem is having two of these connectors if you really want to push 600W. Have the same margin of safety or close to what the older 8 pin had. Why is there this sudden urge to skimp on safety?

 

[N/A]

They're both wacky psychologies and can't be defended. Roman and the other are not using the octopus adapter provided, and go for the custom unverified solution instead, and forgo warranty, when the octopus is protecting the GPU from waring down and probably meltdown if it's well distributed.

 

[BoggledBeagle]

You're just as hilarious as the guy I just talked about. Professional? What? This is consumer gear.

I think you read and write too quickly. You need to calm down and slow down.

When you mention consumer gear, you are correct. That cables are meant to be for one PC install. I do not think that 12 pin plug is a good and robust solution, and I also do not think it should be used right at its rated specification.

But the trouble is - if you used a fresh out of the box cable for one PC install, the cables would be fine even when used at their max power.

Go see a doctor, the cognitive dissonance has taken over your logic

I am fine, thanks...

 

[Vayra86]

I think you read and write too quickly. You need to calm down and slow down.

When you mention consumer gear, you are correct. That cables are meant to be for one PC install. I do not think that 12 pin plug is a good and robust solution, and I also do not think it should be used at its rated specification.

Bullshit. When you buy a modular PSU, are you telling me you will never unplug anything to put it back again? These cables aren't even rated for one install, but more. You never clean systems or components?
Motherboard pcie slots are rated for some 15-20 inserts, for example. Clearly supportive of such activities. Not daily, no. But a dozen times? At the very least, yes.

You keep bringing arguments that make no sense.

It all comes down to the simple fact that tolerances have been trimmed down on all ends. Something that is made of plastic and smaller to boot, has much less material that can wear and tear, so this again results in reduced lifecycle. We've literally moved closer to cabling being E-Waste and you are defending it, while we come from and still have an ecosystem with much better tolerances and, as a logical result, far more resilient equipment.

Is this so hard to see? To me its so blatantly obvious that I seriously do question the rationale here.

 

[Bomby569]

Its a cable with connectors on it that have variances in how they are built, how well they connect and as a result how much resistance they have

Its also a cable that doesn't handle those variances well because there the whole thing is too flimsy

sure all true, but in this case, the cable is dumb, it decides nothing, and the issue is load inbalance
no cable (wire) would handle those loads

 

[Vayra86]

sure all true, but in this case, the cable is dumb, it decides nothing, and the issue is load inbalance
no cable (wire) would handle those loads

Pray tell, how would this load imbalance exist when you have one entry point and one exit point between the PSU and GPU. You can refer to my post you quoted. The answer is in there. These aren't adapters that somehow have to translate 3/4x pcie power from the psu to one connector. Its a straight 12 pin connection over one connector.

 

[Bomby569]

Pray tell, how would this load imbalance exist when you have one entry point and one exit point between the PSU and GPU

buildzoid already answered that. that is a solved mystery and has nothing to do with the cable.
unless i missed your point entirely

 

[Vayra86]

buildzoid already answered that. that is a solved mystery and has nothing to do with the cable.
unless i missed your point entirely

I think you need to really watch the video again then. You can measure all you want on the GPU side, that still doesn't change the fact these cables are subpar for what they need to be doing.

 

[Bomby569]

I think you need to really watch the video again then.

no i don't.
i get your point, the cable could be designed differently, but that is besides the point when what's causing this is cheapen out on the components of the gpu
hell even the psu could prevent this, but again that's besides the point
the user could do this and that
the AIB's could put all sorts of preventing measures
etc...
all that is shifting blame

 

[Vayra86]

no i don't.
i get your point, the cable could be designed differently, but that is besides the point when what's causing this is cheapen out on the components of the gpu
hell even the psu could prevent this, but again that's besides the point
the user could do this and that
the AIB's could put all sorts of preventing measures
etc...
all that is shifting blame

The GPU component argument only exists, because the cable is failing and we're looking for reasons why the GPU socket end is also molten this time. Because now the GPU ALSO deceased as a result of a bad cable.

But the fact remains, the cable fails. Not the PSU. Not the GPU. The cable.

Buildzoids talks a lot about shunt resistors but all they are is mitigation for what is ultimately power cabling that isn't up to the task. And the comparisons to 3080 for example with 7 shunts across the entire card (in different phases of power delivery, all when the power is already delivered out of the cable, so completely not comparable) could have been left out, that's just smoke and mirrors here.

 

[Bomby569]

The GPU component argument only exists, because the cable is failing and we're looking for reasons why the GPU socket end is also molten this time. Because now the GPU ALSO deceased as a result of a bad cable.

But the fact remains, the cable fails. Not the PSU. Not the GPU. The cable.

Buildzoids talks a lot about shunt resistors but all they are is mitigation for what is ultimately power cabling that isn't up to the task. And the comparisons to 3080 for example with 7 shunts across the entire card (in different phases of power delivery, all when the power is already delivered out of the cable, so completely not comparable) could have been left out, that's just smoke and mirrors here.

if one wire is doing all the load what do you think it's going to happen? what do you want, one of those industrial wires the size of your arm to solve the problem?

of course the cable is the one that fails, not the gpu, it's the wires on the cable that have to handle to lead not the gpu, but that doesn't mean it's a cable issue.

If i hit you on the head with a hammer, i assume it's your fault for not having a better more robust head, is that how it works? after all the hammer is just fine, your head is the one with a problem

 

[Caring1]

Instead of wasting R&D dollars on cables and connectors, Nvidia should be focusing on reducing power consumption in GPUs without losing or lowering their graphical abilities.
Ideally they should be no higher than 300W.

 

[Gigaherz]

Buildzoids talks a lot about shunt resistors but all they are is mitigation for what is ultimately power cabling that isn't up to the task. And the comparisons to 3080 for example with 7 shunts across the entire card (in different phases of power delivery, all when the power is already delivered out of the cable, so completely not comparable) could have been left out, that's just smoke and mirrors here.

Dud they put a flawed design on the market and with 30s they at least had the decency to put enough shunts on the card to protect it from powerdelivery failure. Now we dont even get that anymore.

 

[deathjester]

if one wire is doing all the load what do you think it's going to happen? what do you want, one of those industrial wires the size of your arm to solve the problem?

of course the cable is the one that fails, not the gpu, it's the wires on the cable that have to handle to lead not the gpu, but that doesn't mean it's a cable issue.

If i hit you on the head with a hammer, i assume it's your fault for not having a better more robust head, is that how it works? after all the hammer is just fine, your head is the one with a problem

But the only reason that on wire is taking all the load is because it's resistance is significantly less than the others; that's either on the GPU end (testable from the connector to the shunt resistor, if it's consistent across all 6 12v pins then it's NOT the board.

And if it's not the board, you are limited to the fault being with either the cable or the connection.

 

[Bomby569]

Dud they put a flawed design on the market and with 30s they at least had the decency to put enough shunts on the card to protect it from powerdelivery failure. Now we dont even get that anymore.

we have a crooked road, and their solution is inventing a new type of car that can handle the road or mandatory driving lessons on crooked roads, instead of fixing the road

 

[LittleBro]

Honestly I wouldn't change anything. With the way the connector is wired now, changing things out is a gamble. If you happen to get a cable with a defect or a card with a less than ideal receptacle, you won't know until your card is permanently damaged. It will happily run all the power through a single wire until it melts. There are no mechanisms in place to prevent the card from running with a bad cable unless every wire is bad, which is completely un-ideal.

This issue isn't just with the 5090 as well. The 4090 and potentially even the 4080 could be problematic. After all, the 4080 still has a TDP north of 300w and 300w in a worst case scenario through a single wire is still not good.

There should be a recall of 5090 and 4090 at the very least IMO. There should have been a recall of the 4090 to begin with when this issue first started cropping up. I power limit my 4090 to 65% and have never removed the cable but even then after the latest info from buildzoid I'm pretty ticked that such a defective design was not recalled. Instead Nvidia just doubled down on passing the blame.

Regulators should step in. There is serious risk of fire if you let the GPU draw too much power for enough time. One potentially saved life is worth more than 100k of these GPUs and connectors sold ffs.

And yet in 14 months I haven’t bothered to take a single glance at my 4090‘s power cable.

Maybe I’m not an idiot that doesn’t know how to properly seat a plug I guess?



So we’re back to user error.

Who’d a thunk?

Man, you're not a centre of space. It's not about you every time. Simply because YOU do not experience such issue does not mean the issue is not happening. Be happy about being lucky with your setup.

not talking about the user who melted the cable, but about Roman drawing conclusion from his cable, that was intended for one PC installation, and not for testing dozens GPUs and for being handled a lot.

He misused the product, and draws some conclusion from it. It is highly unprofessional. He should be better than that.

I can try to answer the elephants question: I think, that from 100 000 fresh out of the box cables supplied with good brand PSUs, not a single one would exhibit a significnt problem leading to damage.

I am afraid that some cables from lesser brands of even some cables from good brands use plugs, that will not tolerate too much use. I will not say that they are one time use only, but If I wanted to use them multiple times, I would check metal contacts well and if needed, repair them (bend them back in shape) so that they can contact pins well.

Are you fuckin kidding me? It's a called a connector for reason, you can disconnect and connect it again. This must last more than 1 cycle lol. And it would last, if it weren't so shrunk down. With old fashioned ATX connectors you could have hundreds of cycles. Of course, their lifespan was degrading with raising count of cycles. Still, they were so robust that it does not matter.

This 12pin piece of shit connector is so living on the edge that it hurts. Old ATX connectors did a click sound and you saw no space between connector parts. No chance to connect it wrong or loosening.

What some of you here seem to not comprehend is a fact, that there should be no place for error (any error, not just user error) when talking about this poorly dimensioned connector. It has so thin pins and low mating surface that there should be proper locking mechanism as part of connector itself.

In other words: no user errors with standard ATX connectors and suddenly with new connector everything is user error. Is it? All users that had no problems before are now stupid as they don't know how to properly "seat" the new connector? So not the connector is the real cause here? So like it's user's fuckin duty to grab a multimeter and measure resistance between pins to be sure? Is it not like the poor design of the connector allows for way higher margin of error than ATX one?

And system integrator did reseat a connector and now the current is spresd more evenly. In fuckin laboratory he did that! Also, you can clearly see that even after reseating the current varies more than 10% between pins. After another reseating it will vary differently. Man, this connector is like a lottery - it's a matter of having luck to properly seat it.

Shamans from African human eating clan say you have to wait for blue moon and along with that you should seat the connector between your 33rd and 38th heart beat. They never had single issue with melting connectors. Let's just trust them as we trust system integrators.