Microsoft Out to Destroy Steam: Epic's Tim Sweeney

[SonicZap]

I think this is more about Sweeney being out to destroy Microsoft rather than Microsoft being out to destroy Steam.

Why? Well, Win32 apps still work perfectly on Windows 10, and the great majority of Windows software written today, in 2016, still depends on Win32, not to mention all the millions of programs written in the last 20 years. A lot of Windows' market share relies on backward compatibility with old programs, and Microsoft actually spends time* making sure that old programs (including games) work in the latest Windows versions. If MS stopped supporting Win32 apps now, everyone would get mad and switch to Linux in an instant. Win32 is simply too huge to be entirely killed in the next couple of decades.

There's also that UWP programs can already be installed from other sources than the Windows Store.

* You can look at all the application-specific compatibity fixes that MS has included with Windows 10. It for example contains fixes that make very old games like C&C Red Alert 2 work on Windows 10 without extra hassle.

 

[qubit]

Why? Well, Win32 apps still work perfectly on Windows 10, and the great majority of Windows software written today, in 2016, still depends on Win32, not to mention all the millions of programs written in the last 20 years. A lot of Windows' market share relies on backward compatibility with old programs, and Microsoft actually spends time* making sure that old programs (including games) work in the latest Windows versions. If MS stopped supporting Win32 apps now, everyone would get mad and switch to Linux in an instant. Win32 is simply too huge to be entirely killed in the next couple of decades.

Why would Sweeney want to destroy Microsoft? Not saying you're wrong, just wondering at the motivation here.

Regardless, if this story gets too big and is ultimately unfounded, Microsoft should put out an official statement denying it, then continue making Windows as reliable and efficient as they possibly can.

 

[newconroer]

This is how I feel about Windows updates being required (and large updates akin to a service pack) in order for you to simply install a graphics card driver.

Not cool.

 

[rtwjunkie]

I've not noticed any increasing problems with Steam though. Has anyone else?

No, I haven't, other than the usual can't sign in once a week. After 20 tries I get in, and it repeats 7-8 days later.

It's gone on thru 2 OS, and 2 computers for awhile, so it's definately on their end.

@SonicZap Somehow I double posted, so I'll just add a response here. I seriously doubt Sweeney is trying to hurt Microsoft. He is not the one that threw down the gauntlet. It was Valve several years ago based on what Gabe and his techies found in 8 & 8.1.

 

[Naito]

Who would want such a platform where you buy one app on one device and have it available on all others in the ecosystem? Who would want a world where you could play start a game on PC, continue it on console, travel with it on a table tablet or perhaps even your phone? Who would want something like Continuum that would allow you to remain productive no matter where you are? Who knows...

 

[jigar2speed]

thanks Tim Sweeney - i needed that laugh.

 

[Vayra86]

Who would want such a platform where you buy one app on one device and have it available on all others in the ecosystem? Who would want a world where you could play start a game on PC, continue it on console, travel with it on a table tablet or perhaps even your phone? Who would want something like Continuum that would allow you to remain productive no matter where you are? Who knows...

Who would be able to start a session of many years-old Skyrim on the PC in the morning, and transfer that gameplay straight on to a mobile device that doesn't run out of power within 10 minutes after continuing the game, does not have access to the mod library you have on PC, nevermind the fact that those mods didn't work on your UWP version of Skyrim anyway because they are unsigned.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. Great tech for gaming on so many fragmented markets and platforms, with little to no real support apart from what the gaming community gets very vocal about or just does it by itself.

Can you smell the sarcasm?


Tim Sweeney's hitting the nail on the head here, it's just a reality that MS is pushing and if you can't see it, you're pretty blind from the truth. From its inception UWP was a work-in-progress where gaming is one of the LOWEST priorities on the list, evident by the lacking support for... well anything that isn't fixed Vsynced 60 fps or 30 fps gameplay in a very regular resolution, and please don't bring SLI or multi adapter in to the mix! Gears of War was a PITA, Quantum Break is never even heard of anymore... and that's all she wrote.

UWP must fail, and it must fail soon, when it comes to being implemented on games. It probably will, but I don't mind pushing that cart a bit more and Tim is doing us all a favor by helping out.

 

[Frick]

Who would be able to start a session of many years-old Skyrim on the PC in the morning, and transfer that gameplay straight on to a mobile device that doesn't run out of power within 10 minutes after continuing the game, does not have access to the mod library you have on PC, nevermind the fact that those mods didn't work on your UWP version of Skyrim anyway because they are unsigned.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. Great tech for gaming on so many fragmented markets and platforms, with little to no real support apart from what the gaming community gets very vocal about or just does it by itself.

Can you smell the sarcasm?

Just another example of how terrible Skyrim and Bethsoft is.

 

[Vayra86]

Just another example of how terrible Skyrim and Bethsoft is.

Nah not really, Skyrim is one of the most played games in the last ten years with one of the most active communities on the market. Modding and indie gaming is big these days, did you notice? And MS introduces a shell that puts a very efficient stop to most of that community-driven creativity.

Tell me again this is good for *anyone*? If you want to make a point, make one. Skyrim's just an example of a very popular title that doesn't get played in UWP, ever, because of UWP's inherent issues. If you want to whine about Bethsoft, do it elsewhere.

 

[erixx]

I am not finding a fix for starting a MP game on old BF2. It asks me for accounts and rejects all. Nothing to do with MS or Steam.... But EA is another big fish and not so good. It is easier to lauch old MS "Flight" in Steam/Xbox app, than running a blockbuster game like BATTLEFIELD 2.

 

[SonicZap]

Why would Sweeney want to destroy Microsoft? Not saying you're wrong, just wondering at the motivation here.

@SonicZap Somehow I double posted, so I'll just add a response here. I seriously doubt Sweeney is trying to hurt Microsoft. He is not the one that threw down the gauntlet. It was Valve several years ago based on what Gabe and his techies found in 8 & 8.1.

I wasn't really "serious" about Sweeney wanting to destroy Microsoft - he isn't influential enough to do that. My main point is that I cannot foresee MS killing Win32 or Steam within the next 2 decades, because Win32 is still a far more popular platform target for software developers than UWP, and it will continue to be for at least 5 years (since Windows 7 users are the majority and will continue to be the majority for a long time). And if UWP takes over one day, there'll still be millions of legacy programs that MS has to support, or people (me included) will move over to Linux. I just see Sweeney's predicted scenario as very unlikely.

Talking about UWP vs Win32 in general, UWP is more secure and easier to develop for. However, while implementing mod support with UWP is possible, it takes more work (since mods can't just include their own EXEs and DLLs, installers and such for UWP-based games). Loss of mod support is the biggest negative thing that I see in UWP right now, the V-Sync problems and such will likely be solved eventually (of course it's hard to trust MS that they won't revert their fixes again one day).

 

[Easy Rhino]

How would UWP prevent me from installing Steam through the app store and then installing games through Steam?

 

[RejZoR]

Who would be able to start a session of many years-old Skyrim on the PC in the morning, and transfer that gameplay straight on to a mobile device that doesn't run out of power within 10 minutes after continuing the game, does not have access to the mod library you have on PC, nevermind the fact that those mods didn't work on your UWP version of Skyrim anyway because they are unsigned.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. Great tech for gaming on so many fragmented markets and platforms, with little to no real support apart from what the gaming community gets very vocal about or just does it by itself.

Can you smell the sarcasm?


Tim Sweeney's hitting the nail on the head here, it's just a reality that MS is pushing and if you can't see it, you're pretty blind from the truth. From its inception UWP was a work-in-progress where gaming is one of the LOWEST priorities on the list, evident by the lacking support for... well anything that isn't fixed Vsynced 60 fps or 30 fps gameplay in a very regular resolution, and please don't bring SLI or multi adapter in to the mix! Gears of War was a PITA, Quantum Break is never even heard of anymore... and that's all she wrote.

UWP must fail, and it must fail soon, when it comes to being implemented on games. It probably will, but I don't mind pushing that cart a bit more and Tim is doing us all a favor by helping out.

Steam already does this and I loved it for puzzle games like Plants vs Zombies or Bejeweled 3. I was playing it on my desktop system and after I've finished, Steam Cloud synced the data and I could continue playing on my laptop or tablet. And it works great. Too bad not all games support it (Eufloria not supporting it was my biggest issue). And this means you can return to games after you've just re-installed Steam and the game in it. No need to worry about save files. I've re-installed whole system on new SSD, installed Steam and Skyrim and saves were there. Boom. No need to worry about save files. I love that and for me that's the biggest selling point of Steam. I like my saves

 

[Frick]

Answer from MS.

"As stated previously, the Universal Windows Platform is an open ecosystem that is available to every developer, and can be supported by any store," a Microsoft spokeseperson told us. "With the UWP in its infancy, we recognise areas of improvement and aim to make Windows the best development platform regardless of technologies used."

http://www.pcgamesn.com/gears-of-war/microsoft-uwp-tim-sweeney

Which is a pointless statement if you believe Sweeney, but I'm not sure they could have said it diferently.

 

[rtwjunkie]

Sweeney has been made the current fallguy for voicing his opinion, but it all started with Gabe Newell:

https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...ux-to-thrive-gabe-newell.169551/#post-2684190

Take the history of Microsoft and gaming that RCoon posted and I reposted above (I'll post again for those that don't like to look for stuff: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...ts-love-for-pc-by-doing-nothing-at-e3.202172/),

FordGT90Concept's Thread about the state of Windows Store games: https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/...c-sli-crossfire-fullscreen-or-modding.220368/

and add in Gabe, who for those that are too young to know, used to be at Microsoft in a big role. You have to presume he knows what to look for.

Put it all together, and it's why I say keep an open mind...and no you don't need a tin foil hat for that.

 

[Nobody99]

Nah not really, Skyrim is one of the most played games in the last ten years with one of the most active communities on the market. Modding and indie gaming is big these days, did you notice? And MS introduces a shell that puts a very efficient stop to most of that community-driven creativity.

Tell me again this is good for *anyone*? If you want to make a point, make one. Skyrim's just an example of a very popular title that doesn't get played in UWP, ever, because of UWP's inherent issues. If you want to whine about Bethsoft, do it elsewhere.

Skyrim's modding comunity is so big that if you want to download a mod from Skyrim's nuber 1 mod site i.e. Nexus mods and if that mod is a few MBs big (small) you need to sign in. Sarcasm: What a great community!
Where is borderless window option in Skyrim or at least an option with a window that uses all available space (except the taskbar if you don't have it hidden) so you don't have to use standard resolution in windows when you want ALT+TAB to actually work.

PC gaming has a lot of issues and UWP is just making thing worse, but even without UWP there is tons of issues that need to be resolved, after all PC gaming should offer more options and features than consoles.

 

[TheMailMan78]

What is stopping Valve from making a windows store app? Nothing? Oh cool! Problem solved.

As for people screaming lawsuit and anti-trust......GTFO of your parents house.

 

[D007]

I could absolutely see microsoft trying to do this.. You think they got rich for not cornering the market?
I would expect them to try to put steam on an app, available only through their site and potentially for a fee..
They would probably charge steam for being on the network as well.

 

[Frick]

I could absolutely see microsoft trying to do this.. You think they got rich for not cornering the market?
I would expect them to try to put steam on an app, available only through their site and potentially for a fee..
They would probably charge steam for being on the network as well.

That will only happen if they only allow thier own store. And sure it could happen but it's a decade away, at least. Everything about Windows - technically and psychologically - will have to fundementally change, and I can't see that happening.

 

[GoFigureItOut]

This particular statement has piqued my interest:


"Slowly, over the next 5 years, they will force-patch Windows 10 to make Steam progressively worse and more broken. They'll never completely break it, but will continue to break it until, in five years, people are so fed up that Steam is buggy that the Windows Store seem like an ideal alternative. That's exactly what they did to their previous competitors in other areas."


So, Microsoft has deliberately made alternative programs worse over time via updates? But what software is he referring to.

 

[HisDivineOrder]

I see this as one of two things (or both).

1) Sweeney had to keep his mouth shut in favor of Microsoft for a number of years. Now that the deal with Microsoft has ended, he can finally scream to the world all the things he's held inside for too long. Especially now that the Piracy Boogeyman has been put to rest once and for all.

2) Sweeney going out hard against Microsoft for this keeps them honest in the future. If he hadn't said anything, they could do precisely what he's saying quietly and softly until one day we wake up and everything he's said that's happening has already transpired. But now if Steam starts mysteriously breaking, if problems start rising, we'll all immediately assume it's Microsoft interference. Now, even if Microsoft would have (in another world where Sweeney didn't speak out now) let Steam's issues continue to gain some net benefit, Microsoft won't do that. They won't because they won't want the negative criticism of a serious Steam downturn. They'll be blamed immediately and damningly. So now, they'll bend over backward to guarantee Steam works perfectly, if only to avoid being blamed.

He's made it so any problem with Steam reflects poorly on Microsoft and guaranteed an honest, generous Microsoft works to keep the Steam flowing whereas they might not have fought so hard to ensure such a thing previously.

It also keeps the pressure on Microsoft to stay clean with regards to how UWP is used and how hard Microsoft will push to obsolete Win32. They won't do much if they've already sworn to high heaven how they won't, at least not overtly like they might have.

If I'm honest, I think the motive is Epic's new gaming storefront. They're screaming about a doomsday scenario that MIGHT have happened if Microsoft were allowed to act on their own, but now they'll go nowhere near it and keep UWP open for years just to disprove the argument.

And that benefits Epic's store.

 

[AsRock]

What is stopping Valve from making a windows store app? Nothing? Oh cool! Problem solved.

As for people screaming lawsuit and anti-trust......GTFO of your parents house.

Sounds like the beginning of the walled garden.

And why the hell would i want to sign in MS's BS shop to download Steam.

 

[medi01]

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to that. Great tech for gaming on so many fragmented markets and platforms, with little to no real support apart from what the gaming community gets very vocal about or just does it by itself.

If that's your concern, gog.com.
No DRM, game is yours forever.

 

[TheMailMan78]

Sounds like the beginning of the walled garden.

And why the hell would i want to sign in MS's BS shop to download Steam.

Because over all it will be more secure?

 

[AsRock]

Security should be left to the user not to MS, Apple or the government. Although it might be one of their excuses.