What's in a Lootbox? EA Says "Surprise Mechanics, Quite Ethical"

[Xpect]

Yes, but the United States has a particular disdain for gambling and it's very heavily regulated. Lootbox's might be viewed as "chance gamble" mechanism's. That bill could happen.

True. Germany is relatively lax with gambling in comparison. We have ads for online betting sites and online casinos on TV.
We also have female breasts shown uncensored around noon or rather any time, if it is needed for the topic or entertainment and not the obvious Main Focus.
But out movies and Games need to be cut because the US Originals are often too violent for our censors. Or have Nazi stuff in them

Back to topic, I really would wish those lootboxes would disappear.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

EA: "We're a casino now!"

Seriously, how is a lootbox any different than interacting with a slot machine?

Because in gambling you risk losing your bet for the hope of a big payout. A loot box will always have a reward, so EA will argue that you are getting something for your money. It may just be crap, but it’s still technically a transaction. It follows the addictive principles of gambling (random reward), while still not being gambling.

 

[XiGMAKiD]

Pushing gambling into the mainstream

 

[moproblems99]

Because no kids have ever borrowed their parents credit card to buy loot boxes...

Loot boxes? No. Porn? Yes!

 

[TranceHead]

Kinder surprise is a bad analogy.
With kinder surprise, you are buying a chocolate egg first and foremost, with a surprise inside.
EA loot boxes are nothing with a surprise, it is gambling, pure and simple.

 

[Crackong]

Because in gambling you risk losing your bet for the hope of a big payout. A loot box will always have a reward, so EA will argue that you are getting something for your money. It may just be crap, but it’s still technically a transaction. It follows the addictive principles of gambling (random reward), while still not being gambling.

So if a slot machine gives a minimum "prize" of 10 cents every time, it is not gambling ?
This argument from EA is weak.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Kinder surprise is a bad analogy.
With kinder surprise, you are buying a chocolate egg first and foremost, with a surprise inside.
EA loot boxes are nothing with a surprise, it is gambling, pure and simple.

Oh I like that analogy! Further, what you get inside has a good chance of being completely useless/worthless.

 

[zimcomp]

with a kinder surprise when you pay your money and buy a egg , you own it
you can do anything with that egg after
you can eat it, throw it in the bin , stamp on it ,or give it to someone, you could even sell it
you are the owner of the product from the moment you purchase it

what do you own when you buy a surprise mechanic ?

 

[lexluthermiester]

what do you own when you buy a surprise mechanic ?

Another excellent point!

 

[Vayra86]

with a kinder surprise when you pay your money and buy a egg , you own it
you can do anything with that egg after
you can eat it, throw it in the bin , stamp on it ,or give it to someone, you could even sell it
you are the owner of the product from the moment you purchase it

what do you own when you buy a surprise mechanic ?

A digital item that you can do 'anything' with... within the boundaries set by the supplier.

A false sense of freedom and choice

 

[DeathtoGnomes]

It’s technically not gambling because gambling in the traditional sense involves putting money down in the hopes of winning a reward with value. In EA’s case, they are selling a random reward, but it has no definable cash value. It’s essentially following the same psychological principle that makes gambling so addictive, but they get around it by making the “payout” a part of the game, and that payout is technically not even your property, based on how games are licensed.

They also indirectly prey on minors knowing there are clueless or permissive parents out there. Even the responsible parents pay a price before they realize this is a thing their kid has done and manage to shut it down. So yeah, what EA is doing might be legal, but I wouldn’t call it ethical. They’ve essentially built a gambling system where the player never really wins, but never realizes it because it passes as an experience.

It technically IS gambling, if loot boxes were free (no purchasing anything or working to earn tokens or whatever the games calls currency) in a games store then it wouldnt be. Even if the boxes are purchased with in game currency, its still "technically" gambling. Currency is currency whether you buy tokens or earn them in the game, *gasp*, its still currency. The rest I agree.

 

[Vayra86]

Ladbrokes

Its like they want you to be in debt so you end up dying in the gutter with nothing to your name or your family.

What's in a name, ey The UK has a real problem in that sense, historically they've always been very good at applying filters on their own population. Very harsh culture imo -and very counterproductive. Its also a much more defined class society, still than most other W.European countries.

 

[PLAfiller]

Kinder surprise is a bad analogy.
With kinder surprise, you are buying a chocolate egg first and foremost, with a surprise inside.
EA loot boxes are nothing with a surprise, it is gambling, pure and simple.

It doesn't seem so bad analogy to me to be honest. When my daughter is up for an egg, and they go in series: like barbie-series or minion-series, she'd look into the available boxes, shake a few eggs and then make a choice. Why would you shake the egg: you are aiming for a certain toy/reward. You don't really know what's inside the 50 eggs in front of you. There are adults collecting these series and I can only imagine how many eggs they got until complete a specific set. I am not defending EA here, I am just addressing my experience with this one.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

It technically IS gambling, if loot boxes were free (no purchasing anything or working to earn tokens or whatever the games calls currency) in a games store then it wouldnt be. Even if the boxes are purchased with in game currency, its still "technically" gambling. Currency is currency whether you buy tokens or earn them in the game, *gasp*, its still currency. The rest I agree.

What about casinos in Fallout New Vegas and Yakuza? It's a game within a game and there's no material cost to participate other than time and initial purchase of the game. Another example is which toy you get in a kid's meal. It's generally not considered gambling because it's a gift rather than putting something of lesser value in on the hope you'll get something of greater value back. The purchase is the food, not the complementary toy.

I draw the line at inserting legal tender (hiding it behind tokens like you do at brick and mortar casinos doesn't belay that fact) for a chance in a game. The only difference from traditional gambling is that it's spending money on the hopes that you'll get more money back. Because the publisher owns the market for the loot box contents, they'll never let the value of the gambled item exceed the cash odds of getting it. I think that distinction is academic only.

Honestly, I don't know what the solution is other than the service banning children from participating. My hope is that consumers see it for what it is and simply don't partake but that's about as likely as snow in the Sahara. They don't get nothing from me, that's for damn sure.

 

[Athlonite]

Loot Box = Shit Box

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think this is good or even ethical, I just question if it’s illegal. There is a reason a congressman drew up a bill about it—the concept is just not well covered by current law. And it tells you all you need to know that a lawyer has to tell the side of the story for the game publisher.

 

[INSTG8R]

Money exchanged for game of chance=gambling, calling it Loot box or anything else you want doesn’t change what it is.

 

[FreedomEclipse]

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think this is good or even ethical, I just question if it’s illegal. There is a reason a congressman drew up a bill about it—the concept is just not well covered by current law. And it tells you all you need to know that a lawyer has to tell the side of the story for the game publisher.

Its ethical if youre the CEO of EA. more money to fill his swimming pool made out of money built on his super yacht made out of even more money.... this is if you like your steak chased through fields, run over multiple times and tenderised with a monster truck before its meat is harvested from its broken body while it was still alive.

 

[lexluthermiester]

There is a reason a congressman drew up a bill about it—the concept is just not well covered by current law.

This is both correct and not. There are laws that clearly define what constitutes gambling IRL & online and there is case law that clarifies those definitions further. The new part of this is the involvement of it in games and deliberate exposure to children. Children and adults alike use real money to buy in-game currency which is then used to buy "boxes" which contain unknown items for use in game. The aspect of this that is in question is the fact that MOST boxes render a useless or worthless item that effectively has little to no value in-game or IRL. Such effectively becomes a "gamble" that has very low chances of reward. The desire to get "that big prize" easily becomes addictive.

Loot-boxes by shear definition of function are a clear example of gambling. The part of this that is effectively unlawful is that a large portion of the target user base are minors who are not known for high degrees of self-control and are easily swayed. This makes loot-box promotion wildly predatory. Parents and government alike need to be VERY concerned about this kind of thing and regulate such strictly.

For example, my children are not allowed to use money without explanation of what they're buying. These rules applies IRL as well as online.

Kids ruin everything for adults.

I love being a parent and I love my children. Never have had the thought you just expressed.

 

[Aerpoweron]

Just one quick thought here.

Doesn't Surprise imply that it is for free, or a surprise gift from someone else?

Shouldn't that prohibit any buying of those boxes for oneself?

 

[Vayra86]

Just one quick thought here.

Doesn't Surprise imply that it is for free, or a surprise gift from someone else?

Shouldn't that prohibit any buying of those boxes for oneself?

Hehe don't give them ideas now. I can already see it 'The Buddha Box'.

...and every 10 year old swinging two accounts that are 'close friends'

 

[Aerpoweron]

Sadly have to agree Vayra86.

I think it is ok to sell boxes where you know what will be inside.

The loot boxes are gambling in my opinion. So the game should be only for people for the age at what gambling is allowed. As soon as there are such laws, the loot boxes will disappear, because the companies want to sell their games to persons at 16 or lower

 

[FreedomEclipse]

The funny thing is when the questioning begins and the guy from the UK asks if she/EA finds loot boxes ethical, she quick to rebuke the speaker and says "oh we dont call it that - we call it surprise mechanics..." - But later on she goes on a tirade about its implementation, about how its fun, enjoyable and ethical then she calls it lootboxes then corrects herself and says 'surprise mechanics'

 

[64K]

If it did become illegal to sell loot boxes to minors here in the USA then how could it possibly be enforced? Neither the Publisher nor the online store have any foolproof means of knowing how old the buyer is. A 13 year old could lie and say they are 18. They could start a new account using their parent's ID info and credit card info or setup a new account and use PayPal for purchases.

The only way to be sure that such a law would have any meaning at all is to outlaw loot boxes for everyone. Children and adults. I doubt that Congress is willing to go that far but we'll see.

 

[lexluthermiester]

A 13 year old could lie and say they are 18.

They could be required to state their real names to have an account and provide a credit or debit card with a matching name. By law, all card holders have to identify themselves to get one.