What's in a Lootbox? EA Says "Surprise Mechanics, Quite Ethical"

[lexluthermiester]

Imho he was pushing for a fallacy: since this thing Nintendo did very, very vaguely resembles gambling and people are ok with it, no regulation is needed for any other forms of gambling in games.
But maybe I just didn't get it.

No, you got what he was trying to say. My argument was that because the values of all things involved were known at all times, it wasn't a gamble at all because Nintendo declared exactly what was on offer, what the values of everything was and the customer always knew what they were getting at all times.

 

[bug]

No, you got what he was trying to say. My argument was that because the values of all things involved were known at all times, it wasn't a gamble at all because Nintendo declared exactly what was on offer, what the values of everything was and the customer always knew what they were getting at all times.

So you went for the red herring

 

[lexluthermiester]

So you went for the red herring

That's one way of putting it. I tend not to assume people are being deceptive until there is a reason to believe such, generally. The analogy Ford used didn't work because it was a functionally different situation from what EA and others are doing with loot-boxes, but the comparison was easy to see from his point of view.

 

[bug]

That's one way of putting it. I tend not to assume people are being deceptive until there is a reason to believe such, generally. The analogy Ford used didn't work because it was a functionally different situation from what EA and others are doing with loot-boxes, but the comparison was easy to see from his point of view.

True, but he wasn't worth more than one reply.

 

[64K]

For the folks that have been around gaming for a while know that microtransactions are a blight. They give incentive to Publishers/Developers to work microtransactions into their games to squeeze out a few more dollars from their games.

 

[bug]

For the folks that have been around gaming for a while know that microtransactions are a blight. They give incentive to Publishers/Developers to work microtransactions into their games to squeeze out a few more dollars from their games.

That's not right either.
MTXs are just tools. Tools are not good or bad by themselves. One again, I will refer you to Path of Exile: free to play, full of MTXs, yet none of them gives you a gameplay advantage whatsoever. It can be argued that a bigger stash does, but for the purpose of our discussion here, when you buy stash space in PoE, you buy stash space; there's no chance/luck involved.

I would be content if p2w titles were labeled as such. I would be ecstatic if, once labeled, they're also marked as 18+ because, you know, that's when you're legally allowed to own a CC to pay for all the crap.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Um, ok. Did you actually have a Wii? I have two and remember very clearly using my CC to make purchases directly on both systems. Sorry mate, you're incorrect on this one.

I have about 20-30 WiiWare and Wii Classic games. All credit card transactions for me were for Wii Points, not games directly.

That's one way of putting it. I tend not to assume people are being deceptive until there is a reason to believe such, generally. The analogy Ford used didn't work because it was a functionally different situation from what EA and others are doing with loot-boxes, but the comparison was easy to see from his point of view.

How are Bioware Points any different from Wii Points?

I would be content if p2w titles were labeled as such. I would be ecstatic if, once labeled, they're also marked as 18+ because, you know, that's when you're legally allowed to own a CC to pay for all the crap.

I concur. ESRB needs to be kicked to the curb and games need to be rated for what they are. ESRB is fully incentivized to sweep sketchy payment systems under the rug (you know, "surprise mechanics!").

 

[64K]

That's not right either.
MTXs are just tools. Tools are not good or bad by themselves. One again, I will refer you to Path of Exile: free to play, full of MTXs, yet none of them gives you a gameplay advantage whatsoever. It can be argued that a bigger stash does, but for the purpose of our discussion here, when you buy stash space in PoE, you buy stash space; there's no chance/luck involved.

I would be content if p2w titles were labeled as such. I would be ecstatic if, once labeled, they're also marked as 18+ because, you know, that's when you're legally allowed to own a CC to pay for all the crap.

Last year Ubisoft announced in one of their quarterly financial statements that they now had more revenue from microtransactions than the did from the actual sales of games. Think about that for a minute.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

It makes sense. Game sales are finite where microtransactions are virtually unlimited. $1 microtransactions quickly add up and buyers often don't realize how much they spent on a game until long after the fact. But microtransactions aren't risk-free either. You have to get a persistent player base before they'll be willing to open their pockets you. Microtransactions failed to save a lot of free-to-play games like Firefall. They probably won't even save Anthem.

 

[64K]

Take a look at League of Legends microtransaction revenue:

2014 1 billion dollars
2015 1.6 billion dollars
2016 1.7 billion dollars
2017 2.1 billion dollars
2018 1.4 billion dollars

People are spending crazy money on microtransactions. Does anyone really believe that this has no influence on Developers planning games?

 

[bug]

Last year Ubisoft announced in one of their quarterly financial statements that they now had more revenue from microtransactions than the did from the actual sales of games. Think about that for a minute.

That still doesn't make MTXs bad.

 

[lexluthermiester]

I have about 20-30 WiiWare and Wii Classic games. All credit card transactions for me were for Wii Points, not games directly.

Regardless, the values of everything involved with the WiiShop is still known. No surprises, no question of what is what. Loot-boxes, by stark contrast, are an unknown until after they are paid for and opened. The point is; with EA(et all) you have no idea what you're going to get until after you've paid. With Nintendo's WiiShop, you always knew what you would/could get with what you paid and there was no unknown variable.

This is why your analogy is not a valid comparison.

How are Bioware Points any different from Wii Points?

Don't know, I don't use "Bioware Points".

I would be content if p2w titles were labeled as such. I would be ecstatic if, once labeled, they're also marked as 18+ because, you know, that's when you're legally allowed to own a CC to pay for all the crap.

I concur. ESRB needs to be kicked to the curb and games need to be rated for what they are. ESRB is fully incentivized to sweep sketchy payment systems under the rug (you know, "surprise mechanics!").

Agreed on both points. As long as it is clearly defined as P2W and access is limited to adults, there really isn't a problem.

 

[zimcomp]

the worst thing about this when you say gambling you expect to win something but if you win you cannot do anything with it except use it your self

If it did become illegal to sell loot boxes to minors here in the USA then how could it possibly be enforced? Neither the Publisher nor the online store have any foolproof means of knowing how old the buyer is. A 13 year old could lie and say they are 18. They could start a new account using their parent's ID info and credit card info or setup a new account and use PayPal for purchases.

The only way to be sure that such a law would have any meaning at all is to outlaw loot boxes for everyone. Children and adults. I doubt that Congress is willing to go that far but we'll see.

might be like alcohol or tobacco

but maybe the answer is
if surprise mechanics gets you in to debt
don't worry EA will pay surprise debt relief