PSU Expert Aris Mpitziopoulos Responds to Gigabyte Statement on GP-P750/850 GM Design Flaws

[TheLostSwede]

You can choose to ignore the reality of GPU vendors forcing unwanted gear on retailers. Microcenter gpu prices are a tad higher to compensate not forcing the bundles.
I think microcenter having them on shelves is a horrible thing given they are bombs waiting to go off. Newegg is just worse by forwarding the bundle forced on them.

You clearly don't work in the business and understand how these things work.
It's not possible to "force" any company to make a bundle like that.
Bundles are usually done in a way that the seller gets a kickback in some form from the manufacturer, it's the only way bundles happen. There's no other incentive that could enable bundles like this.
You're free to dive into your conspiracy theories here, just remember to wear a tinfoil hat.

Also, I doubt this was "unwanted" gear, as I'm sure Gigabyte thought it was a perfectly fine product.

CE is funny. It's "self declaration". If someone reports you, they just ask you to remove the logo. That's why so many cheap PSUs have CE. FCC is the same way.

The GP--GM series PSU label has UL (which is not required), CCC, TÜV, KCC (which are required in those regions).

Patrick noted that different samples have different parts used for the primary PWM switchers.

I have to wonder if the decision was made to use multiple sources was made initially, or because so many suppliers simply have no parts (I can't get an Infineon MOSFET for an HX's PWM circuit to save my life right now!). If you second and third source after you've already labeled and launched the product, you have to provide samples, pay and wait each time you do so. Thousands of dollars and several weeks. Part of me wonders if the logos on the label even actually represent the product shipping.

The FCC doesn't certify power related products, that's UL, but I guess you knew that. However, FCC is required to sell a device with a radio transmitter in it of any kind in the US market.
CE is required to sell products in Europe, but yes, it's self certification as you point out. However, if you get reported, you'll have to pull the products from the market.
CCC is pointless, that's a PRC certification that you can get with a red envelope.
TÜV can be anything, as you pay them to test what you want to have tested.
KCC is for Korea only.

Also, I thought UL was required these days, but I could be wrong.

I don't think any decision was made, this is what happens when you don't have QC/QA staff on site and manufacture things in the PRC.
I've had similar experiences, both at companies I've worked for and at my own business.
I made a very simple power board for a customer, the company that manufactured it for me couldn't get hold of the right part, so they used a pair of slightly lower rated capacitors and it ended up being a problem, since in certain circumstances the products that were powered didn't get enough power, so they wouldn't start. Do you think the manufacturer told me about the change?
It caused quite a bit of a headache and I can tell you that I didn't use that manufacturer again.

 

[looniam]

It was an, apparently failed, attempt at sarcasm. Furthermore, I'd like to make a point that no consumer hardware is tested to the extent consumers assume it is. Typically certification testing is more along the lines of "does it cause immediate harm? Does it spew out enough interference to affect other devices? Can it handle some interference itself?". Certification is not really about functional characteristics of the device, just basic safety. I assumed it's common knowledge.

so graduate from semantics to broad sweeping generalizations that are mind boggling. i do like how you contradicted yourself:

"Can it handle some interference itself?" is a question of function albeit under what conditions. "Does it spew out enough interference to affect other devices?" well, if it does then it would be a functional device? because you certainly wouldn't be able to use then.

pro tip pal; certifications and their process are generally more concerned that the product functions as required then safety as you think. so as usual "common knowledge" is "common myth".

 

[TheLostSwede]

I think there's a misunderstanding.

Gigabyte, EVGA and probably other GPU vendors that also happen to have PSUs are doing the same thing. They're telling retailers that they can have graphics cards if they also buy PSUs. In some cases it's one to one. The PSUs are often heavily discounted too as they apply Nvidia MDF to the cost of the PSU. Since there's desperation in getting graphics cards, many vendors are taking on excessive PSU inventory to maintain their level of GPU stock.

This isn't an uncommon practice. This is why you'll see a lot of SIs using the same brand GPU and PSU. When I worked for BFG, we played this game too. If Best Buy wanted BFG graphics cards, they'd have to also stock BFG power supplies exclusively. Once BFG lost got screwed over by Nvidia when they started selling it's own branded reference cards directly to Best Buy, Best Buy stopped buying BFG cards, and therefore PSUs. The end result was, of course, BFG went out of business because Best Buy was more than 60% of their sales.


IEC-62368-1 (the most current standard) ensures that a PSU is "safe" to the user. Unfortunately, testing to this is not required.... until you get busted and almost (or do) kill someone.

It's still not a forced bundle as some people seem to think.

However, if Nvidia's MDF is being used, these companies are in a very grey area and might be reprimanded not only by Nvidia, but also by law enforcement, as this would be inappropriate use of marketing funds. Maybe things are different in the US, but this would be outright illegal in most countries.

 

[looniam]

I have to wonder if the decision was made to use multiple sources was made initially, or because so many suppliers simply have no parts (I can't get an Infineon MOSFET for an HX's PWM circuit to save my life right now!). If you second and third source after you've already labeled and launched the product, you have to provide samples, pay and wait each time you do so. Thousands of dollars and several weeks. Part of me wonders if the logos on the label even actually represent the product shipping.

this is an example, that doesn't get noticed enough imo, of the bait and switch tactics that happens from time to time. it's why i miss sites that would go out buy PSUs off the self and test those. once in awhile someone like THG may go out and buy junk for a "don't buy cheap PSUs" article. but years ago, your site, hardware secrets and hardOCP, to name a few, would quite commonly.

ya outta nudge those kids at gamers nexus to pick up that torch.

 

[lexluthermiester]

Also, I thought UL was required these days, but I could be wrong.

Nope, it's still optional.

 

[LTUGamer]

They just needed to say "sorry" instead of explaining that PSU esploding is a normal thing

 

[TheLostSwede]

Nope, it's still optional.

Daim! Well, I have never sourced anything power related that hasn't been UL certified. Then again, I'm picky about these things and don't like returns...
Even the smart plug we developed at Securifi had UL and FCC certification.

They just needed to say "sorry" instead of explaining that PSU exploding is a normal thing

Yeah, no, it's anything but normal. That said, it used to be a lot more common back in the days. Back in 2005 when I did a large PSU group test, I had a couple of Hiper units fail. One damaged the test equipment and one with passive PFC started to vibrate around the test bench at around 75% load...
Also had one Ultra PSU blow up at a mer 100% load and a fanless PSU from Silentmaxx also had a component failure and died.
I don't think either of these companies are around today though.

 

[crmaris]

I think there's a misunderstanding.

Gigabyte, EVGA and probably other GPU vendors that also happen to have PSUs are doing the same thing. They're telling retailers that they can have graphics cards if they also buy PSUs. In some cases it's one to one. The PSUs are often heavily discounted too as they apply Nvidia MDF to the cost of the PSU. Since there's desperation in getting graphics cards, many vendors are taking on excessive PSU inventory to maintain their level of GPU stock.

This isn't an uncommon practice. This is why you'll see a lot of SIs using the same brand GPU and PSU. When I worked for BFG, we played this game too. If Best Buy wanted BFG graphics cards, they'd have to also stock BFG power supplies exclusively. Once BFG lost got screwed over by Nvidia when they started selling it's own branded reference cards directly to Best Buy, Best Buy stopped buying BFG cards, and therefore PSUs. The end result was, of course, BFG went out of business because Best Buy was more than 60% of their sales.


IEC-62368-1 (the most current standard) ensures that a PSU is "safe" to the user. Unfortunately, testing to this is not required.... until you get busted and almost (or do) kill someone.

Thank you for your insights, Jon! Always appreciate it when you take the time and comment

 

[zlobby]

Thank you for your insights, Jon! Always appreciate it when you take the time and comment

When Jon and Aris talk PSU, I take out my notebook and start taking notes.

 

[Bomby569]

Pissing consumers, general public, reviewers, media in general. What can possible go wrong here.

 

[DTheSleepless]

I think there's a misunderstanding.

Gigabyte, EVGA and probably other GPU vendors that also happen to have PSUs are doing the same thing. They're telling retailers that they can have graphics cards if they also buy PSUs. In some cases it's one to one. The PSUs are often heavily discounted too as they apply Nvidia MDF to the cost of the PSU. Since there's desperation in getting graphics cards, many vendors are taking on excessive PSU inventory to maintain their level of GPU stock.

This isn't an uncommon practice. This is why you'll see a lot of SIs using the same brand GPU and PSU. When I worked for BFG, we played this game too. If Best Buy wanted BFG graphics cards, they'd have to also stock BFG power supplies exclusively. Once BFG lost got screwed over by Nvidia when they started selling it's own branded reference cards directly to Best Buy, Best Buy stopped buying BFG cards, and therefore PSUs. The end result was, of course, BFG went out of business because Best Buy was more than 60% of their sales.


IEC-62368-1 (the most current standard) ensures that a PSU is "safe" to the user. Unfortunately, testing to this is not required.... until you get busted and almost (or do) kill someone.

Jon's 100% correct and I don't think Steve's assertion on GN that NewEgg and Gigabyte worked together on this is totally afield, it's most definitely within the realm of possibility and even somewhat likely.

The allocation stuff going on with GPUs right now is really acute, and AiB partners are going absolutely berserk. Because that's the thing. If you want allocation or better pricing on graphics cards, you have to play ball with them and I imagine they're straight up setting the terms for a lot of vendors.

I've seen what's been going on behind the curtain, it's very ugly.

 

[Vayra86]

Oh wow.

Gigabyte - NEVER again. This seals the deal. After the RMA bullshit reports and multiple screw ups that are actually 'the norm' according to some, this one takes the cake.

So the ga parts are dumpster fires. Proves they are trash, haven't been good since AM3 either.

Gigabyte Z77X D3H mobo: two dead RAM slots.
Gigabyte NV 780ti: the single worst GPU I've owned. Hot, could not maintain rated clock, zero OC potential, noisy af
Gigabyte G34WQC monitor: has developed a bright spot within 3 months of purchase at one screen edge, and momentarily blanks out and goes back on when the room is colder, or the monitor feels like it. I can't decide which yet, but this one's going for RMA

three strikes and you're out tbh. I guess I'm lucky having never used a PSU with their logo on it.

 

[TheLostSwede]

three strikes and you're out tbh. I guess I'm lucky having never used a PSU with their logo on it.

Had one over a decade ago, top mounted in Gigabyte's only aluminum chassis. It had terrible coil whine, which one day really drove me nuts, so I slapped the top of the case, only once, but quite hard, the fan fell out of the PSU...
That was my first and last Jiggabyte PSU.

I kind of like their motherboards though, but now my graphics card has started to spin up the fans like crazy a bit at random, which is really annoying. It didn't behave like this until recently. Finger crossed it won't go on the fritz.

I actually had a Gigabyte router at one point, it was a pretty average router that lacked any kind of firmware support. Can't think of anything else I've owned from them, despite having had quite a good relationship with the company when I was a tech journalist.

 

[Chrispy_]

this is an example, that doesn't get noticed enough imo, of the bait and switch tactics that happens from time to time. it's why i miss sites that would go out buy PSUs off the self and test those. once in awhile someone like THG may go out and buy junk for a "don't buy cheap PSUs" article. but years ago, your site, hardware secrets and hardOCP, to name a few, would quite commonly.

ya outta nudge those kids at gamers nexus to pick up that torch.

Linus or Steve would probably love to run with this; They've made good money off content specifically targetting bait-and-switch in the last couple of years. Linus in particular loves to run his mouth on The WAN Show when companies try to muscle out the little guys and has weighed in hard on a few recent ones like the two HWUnboxed issues (Nvidia RTX, LG monitors) as well as the TechteamGB MSI laptop review bribery. The combination of bait-and-switch and tone-deaf blaming of reviewers and users here from Gigabyte ticks all of the boxes for a high-profile Linus rant good for >10M views.

People love outrage, and that generates clicks to pay the bills.

When Jon and Aris talk PSU, I take out my notebook and start taking notes.

Basically PSU royalty right there...

@crmaris - what does the crm stand for? I hadn't made the association before, but is the c for Cybenetics?

 

[sith'ari]

When Jon and Aris talk PSU, I take out my notebook and start taking notes.

well , i guess you missed the good old days at Jonnyguru forums then !! It was happening all the time to see Jon , Aris and lots of others PSU reviewers & experts to exchange arguments !! But nowadays , unfortunately , Jonnyguru closed.

About the Gigabyte-statement , i already wrote my opinion at HardwareBusters channel :
It's a pathetic excuse from Gigabyte to imply that those units were excessively pushed by the reviewers.
Well , excuse me Gigabyte-PR team , but it's an IRRELEVANT argument if those PSUs were excessively pushed or not. IF they had the proper protection features , like most good-quality PSUs , it wouldn't matter how hard were they pushed or not , since those protection features would kick-in and shut-down the PSU.
The fact that this didn't happen(we all watched the explosion/fire) means that Gigabyte's PSUs are PSUs without the proper protection features ,and this by itself is unforgivable.

EDIT : oh , and almost forgot :
It's even worse than their current press-release , the fact that they never asked Aris to send the damaged PSU back to Gigabyte so they could further examine what happened. They only replied that they didn't experience such issues at their own testings ,and basically ignored Aris findings.
This behaviour was similarly bad with their current press-release.

 

[london]

Gigabyte, stop talking?

 

[zlobby]

well , i guess you missed the good old days at Jonnyguru forums then !! It was happening all the time to see Jon , Aris and lots of others PSU reviewers & experts to exchange arguments !! But nowadays , unfortunately , Jonnyguru closed.

Yes, I miss those times dearly. Times, where you knew exactly what your PSU is made of and what to expect of its performance. Times, where a couple of guys made entire engineering divisions blushing in shame... Ah...

 

[lexluthermiester]

Linus in particular loves to run his mouth on The WAN Show when companies try to muscle out the little guys and has weighed in hard on a few recent ones like the two HWUnboxed issues (Nvidia RTX, LG monitors) as well as the TechteamGB MSI laptop review bribery. The combination of bait-and-switch and tone-deaf blaming of reviewers and users here from Gigabyte ticks all of the boxes for a high-profile Linus rant good for >10M views.

I love it when he rants on companies who deserve it! And he does it right! Whether you love or hate Linus, he is a champion of the industry!

 

[jonnyGURU]

The FCC doesn't certify power related products, that's UL, but I guess you knew that. However, FCC is required to sell a device with a radio transmitter in it of any kind in the US market.
CE is required to sell products in Europe, but yes, it's self certification as you point out. However, if you get reported, you'll have to pull the products from the market.

What I thought I said... ... at least, what I meant, is that CE and FCC are self declarations ("decleration of conformity"). You may or may not go to a 3rd party lab and have test results. The factory themselves can say "yep, it's good" and slap a logo on the product. I for one, never trust any OEM and always use 3rd party labs.

EDIT: Some countries actually do REQUIRE a proper EMI/RFI testing similar to FCC requirements (Korea and Australia, for example. Can't get KCC and C-Tick without). But otherwise, FCC is only required in the U.S. So when you see these garbage PSUs in Europe with "FCC" on the label, odds are it didn't actually get any proper FCC testing. Especially if CE and FCC are the only logos on the label.

And as @lexluthermiester pointed out: UL, cTÜVus, etc. are completely optional.

It's still not a forced bundle as some people seem to think.

However, if Nvidia's MDF is being used, these companies are in a very grey area and might be reprimanded not only by Nvidia, but also by law enforcement, as this would be inappropriate use of marketing funds. Maybe things are different in the US, but this would be outright illegal in most countries.

Definitely not illegal. At least not in the U.S. Nobody forces you to sell to anyone. Surprised it's illegal anywhere. Think about it: If you're have graphics cards and someone wants to buy them, you don't have the right to say "no. I don't want to sell them to you"? Because it's essentially the same thing. There are laws that prevent price floors, price ceilings, price gouging, but that's not what's happening here. They're selling the cards to Newegg for the exact same price they're selling them to Amazon and would sell them to anyone else if they DID NOT have PSUs as well. It's not like they're saying "Price of GPU is (GPU + Price of PSU)" They're saying: "Price of GPU is this. Price of PSU is this. Gotta buy both. Take it or leave it."

Like a car dealer. SUV has a moon roof. I don't want a moon roof, but they don't have one without a moon roof and don't want to take the cost of the moon roof out of the total price of the vehicle. Essentially saying, "we're not willing to close this sale". Car = GPU. Moon roof = PSU. Car dealer is Gigabyte. I'm Newegg. I have a CHOICE at this point to say fine, I'm going to the other dealer (Zotac or Galax, for example).

I don't think any decision was made, this is what happens when you don't have QC/QA staff on site and manufacture things in the PRC.

This is exactly the problem.

It's not uncommon for an OEM to second or third source a component in short supply without even letting the customer know. They do this based on "looks good on paper" instead of doing proper validation testing. I've had parts as small as a resistor getting swapped out unbeknownst to me fuck me over and have my boss threaten to terminate me because the OEM said "it's the same on paper". Never again.

Fortunately, Corsair... and Corsair's not the only one. beQuiet, Coolermaster, Thermaltake, etc. all have good teams. I'm not just tooting my own horn here... have "Product Engineering" (this is different than the R&D engineering I'm involved with) teams in China that oversee production and FORCE, literally FORCE, the OEM to do proper validations testing before making a change.

Right now, however, is the WORSE TIME for companies like Corsair, Coolermaster, etc. because there are component shortages left and right... everything from capacitors to MOSFETs to MCUs.... and travel restrictions that prevent you from having boots on the ground. So EVERYTHING is taking longer and for some companies, corners are being cut. Usually without the company even knowing about it until it's too late.

By the way... Good read here: https://www.amazon.com/Poorly-Made-China-Insiders-Production/dp/0470928077

 

[EsaT]

It's not uncommon for an OEM to second or third source a component in short supply without even letting the customer know. They do this based on "looks good on paper" instead of doing proper validation testing. I've had parts as small as a resistor getting swapped out unbeknownst to me fuck me over and have my boss threaten to terminate me because the OEM said "it's the same on paper". Never again.

That "Nothing changed here, no re-validation required" isn't entirely exclusive to China problem and can happen also where strict testing of changes would be expected.
Like how maker of AMRAAM's rocket motor changed propellant formula and didn't test that it still works in high altitude flight temperatures.
When USAF caught that in their testing, that "insignificant" change ended up causing over two year stop in missile deliveries threatening whole missile program.

And of course instead of admitting screw up and accepting consequencies, that company eventually sued missile's maker Raytheon basically for switching to another source.
(who started making actually working rocket motors)
Maybe it might have helped in keeping the contract, if they had actually started to instantly fix the problem instead of blaming others...


But that China production is really something.
Once in stormchaser meeting one hobbyer had work in electronics company.
They had product design, which needed dual sided PCB, but Chinese factory supposed to make them wanted to change it single sided to cut costs...

 

[R-T-B]

So the ga parts are dumpster fires. Proves they are trash, haven't been good since AM3 either.

I mean, they have some good, well reviewed AM4+ mobos. These PARTICULAR PSU's are indeed trash though, as are more than a few of their cheaper boards. Which is why reading reviews is important. Don't think that this can't happen with any brand, especially when cutting price corners.

What bothers me most though is gigabytes response (or lack thereof). It's really, really lackluster. That is a reason to avoid them more than anything else. It indicates a refusal to learn from mistakes.

 

[TheLostSwede]

I mean, they have some good, well reviewed AM4+ mobos. These PARTICULAR PSU's are indeed trash though, as are more than a few of their cheaper boards. Which is why reading reviews is important. Don't think that this can't happen with any brand, especially when cutting price corners.

What bothers me most though is gigabytes response (or lack thereof). It's really, really lackluster. That is a reason to avoid them more than anything else. It indicates a refusal to learn from mistakes.

It's a chinese culture thing, unfortunately. They've lost face, so it's already too late to save the situation and as such, they'll do the least possible effort to try and salvage it. I've seen that before here. On the other hand, if they could've saved face, they would've done just about anything to try and do so.

Also, no-one seems to learn from mistakes here, since in most companies, the staff turnover is too high, so there's no "collective memory" of what happened more than a year or two ago. In most cases, if you want a promotion, you quit your job and go to a competitor and ask for a higher salary. However, the competitor isn't really interested in the mistakes the other company made and barely interested in what made them successful so...

 

[Vayra86]

It indicates a refusal to learn from mistakes.

To me it indicates a company that has gone multinational and stopped being humble and serving. Mistakes are part of the business plan. Its cheaper to just poop out new product every year and care very little. Sheep will buy it and processes are managed in such a way that someone insignificant falls for it or the actual cost is somehow compensated by cutting elsewhere. Notably, RMA handling

Much like governments (apart from the multinational part), once they stop serving, they're hostile entities, because they have then shifted to you serving them. Staying to see if they might change is like waiting until Putin marries Navalny. Along those lines, only revolution or a great exodus can change the course for the better.

And its a damn shame but quite a few multinationals are headed that way. Power corrupts.

 

[Sandbo]

Very disappointing for Gigabyte, with all my trust on their recent AM4 motherboards because of the seemingly good VRMs, now I have to think twice if an OPP was configured in a similar ill-educated manner.

Also, I could not comprehend the intention behind setting a higher OPP - you already told your customer your units aren't supposed to handle more than the specified, why bother leaving the headroom in exchange for an unnecessary risk? People will know they need a higher current unit when they are shut down by the OPP/OCP and you get to sell a more expensive PSU, like why not?

 

[sith'ari]

Also, I could not comprehend the intention behind setting a higher OPP - you already told your customer your units aren't supposed to handle more than the specified, why bother leaving the headroom in exchange for an unnecessary risk? People will know they need a higher current unit when they are shut down by the OPP/OCP and you get to sell a more expensive PSU, like why not?

The problem isn't the OPP triggering point , since OPP clearly was never actually triggered .
If the OPP was activated the PSU would had been shut-down and not explode.

So , either this PSU doesn't (have) implement properly its supposed protection features (on the contrary to what Gigabyte say at their statement) , or , just like Aris suspects , the issue could be related with the PSU 's design as a platform...