No PCIe Gen5 for "Raphael," Says Gigabyte's Leaked Socket AM5 Documentation

[TumbleGeorge]

Only GPUs, lan adapters and Slstorage devices can utilize PCIE 4 Bandwidth currently. GPUs as of 2019 only just started using it, we are with 6900XTX , 3090Ti and they still dont use enough pcie 4 bandwidth...

Hmm...There is "new" technology in use. Microsoft resizable bar...I searched for what is data transfer speed between VRAM and CPU and fail. Yes now has not (?) any specific restrictions for size of VRAM which seen and used from CPU...but maybe still restrictions by data transfer speed? Because of possibility to saturate and make bottleneck of PCIe?

 

[Valantar]

Hmm...There is "new" technology in use. Microsoft resizable bar...I searched for what is data transfer speed between VRAM and CPU and fail. Yes now has not (?) any specific restrictions for size of VRAM which seen and used from CPU...but maybe still restrictions by data transfer speed? Because of possibility to saturate and make bottleneck of PCIe?

Resizable BAR has no relation to transfer speed, it only affects how much of VRAM (or any other AIC RAM) is visible to the host CPU at any one time. It can speed things up as the CPU doesn't need to change which block of VRAM it's addressing all the time (i.e. reducing overhead), but the benefits are relatively small.

Resizeable BAR also has nothing to do with Microsoft - it's a PCIe feature.

Peak theoretical transfer speed between the CPU and VRAM is the peak transfer speed of the PCIe bus connecting them.

 

[AleXXX666]

lmfao, pcie 4.0 was just released, there are already news about pcie gen5... for what? mining issues with pcie 4?

APUs have had 16 lanes since ... I want to say the 3000-series, but it might have been the 4000-series where that changed. But they have 16+4 now just like the CPUs. So the only issue will be the reduction in speed from 4.0 to 3.0.

I agree that we're in a weird place with motherboard lineups, I guess that comes from being in a transition period between various standards. And of course X570 boards mostly arrived too early to really implement 2.5GbE, while B550 was late enough that nearly every board has it, which is indeed pretty weird. But I think that will shake out over time - there are always weird things due to timing and component availability.

I think Intel skipped H570 simply because it would have been the same as H470 and would then either hav required rebranding a heap of motherboards (looks bad) or making new ones (expensive) for no good reason. Makes sense in that context. But Intel having as many chipset types as they do has always been a bit redundant - they usually have five, right? That's quite a lot, and that's across only PCIe 2.0 and 3.0. Even if one is essentially 'Zx70 but for business with no OC' that still leaves a pretty packed field of four. Hopefully that starts making a bit more sense in coming generations as well.

But as I said above, I don't think the "I carry over all my drives" crowd is particularly notable. On these forums? Sure. But most people don't even upgrade, but just sell (or god forbid, throw out) their old PC and buy/build a new one. A few will keep the drives when doing so, but not most. And the biggest reason for multiple SSDs is capacity, which gets annoying pretty soon - there's a limit to how many 256-512GB SSDs you can have in a system and not go slightly insane. People tend to consolidate over time, and either sell/give away older drives or stick them in cases for external use. So, as I said, there'll always be a niche who want 5+ m.2s, but I don't think those are worth designing even upper midrange motherboards around - they're too much of a niche.

yeah, couple of m2 is "niche", but crappy "BTC" mobos are mainstream, cool...

 

[Valantar]

yeah, couple of m2 is "niche", but crappy "BTC" mobos are mainstream, cool...

Well, that's a textbook example of a straw man argument. I mean, come on. What's the point of this stupid inflammatory BS? The post you quoted said "there'll always be a niche who want 5+ m.2s". How is more than five the same as "a couple"? Come on. Either read more carefully or stop trolling. Also, where have I (ever?) mentioned mining motherboards, let alone called them "mainstream"? Or are you just completely making stuff up at this point? Please, go back and re-read that post, then we can talk.

lmfao, pcie 4.0 was just released, there are already news about pcie gen5... for what? mining issues with pcie 4?

For servers. Servers are the main driver behind development of new RAM and PCIe standards. They want (and need) all the bandwidth they can get their hands on. The preliminary specification for PCIe 5.0 was published in 2017, and it was finalized in May 2019. Work on the 6.0 specification was announced a few weeks after the 5.0 spec was finalized, and is expected to be finalized this year (though it's not unlikely that it's been delayed due to COVID). If anything, the aberration here is that 3.0 lasted us nearly a decade - that's just quite weird, all things considered. 4.0 was late; 5.0 was worked on to ensure it wouldn't be, same with 6.0. When 6.0 is finalized, no doubt work will start on 7.0, though there's a point of diminishing returns fast approaching in terms of signal integrity and possible trace lengths, so we might see some alternative technology take over by then.

 

[windwhirl]

lmfao, pcie 4.0 was just released, there are already news about pcie gen5... for what? mining issues with pcie 4

PCIE 5 is targeting enterprise, not consumer, right now. And please, mining issues? Really? That's hardly a thing with the current hardware barely being able to truly take advantage of PCIE 4.

, couple of m2 is "niche",

Beyond two drives? Yes, it's niche. I'd even argue having more than one is niche.

Prebuilts tend to have a single drive, sometimes two, and in the latter case it boils down to one SSD for the operating system and applications, and one hard drive for mass storage. That's it.

And I see the same tendency with most people's machines, prebuilt or not.

 

[AleXXX666]

PCIE 5 is targeting enterprise, not consumer, right now. And please, mining issues? Really? That's hardly a thing with the current hardware barely being able to truly take advantage of PCIE 4.

Beyond two drives? Yes, it's niche. I'd even argue having more than one is niche.

Prebuilts tend to have a single drive, sometimes two, and in the latter case it boils down to one SSD for the operating system and applications, and one hard drive for mass storage. That's it.

And I see the same tendency with most people's machines, prebuilt or not.

i have 2 m2 nvme drives in motherboard, and one in m2-pcie adapter, just because i've got 256GB m2 ssd for free from acquintance's broken laptop. no need to rip a** and replace my second 256gb ssd for 512gb or 1tb one or suffer from bottlenecks with sata crap (cheaper models of which broke like piece of sh*t), or even hear that crackling hdd sh*t.
and, come on, prebuilts are for dummy people who don't wan't to get themself A GOOD PC, they just are okay with ANY PC, no offense, but i haven't seen any prebuilt better than custom one lol...

Well, that's a textbook example of a straw man argument. I mean, come on. What's the point of this stupid inflammatory BS? The post you quoted said "there'll always be a niche who want 5+ m.2s". How is more than five the same as "a couple"? Come on. Either read more carefully or stop trolling. Also, where have I (ever?) mentioned mining motherboards, let alone called them "mainstream"? Or are you just completely making stuff up at this point? Please, go back and re-read that post, then we can talk.


For servers. Servers are the main driver behind development of new RAM and PCIe standards. They want (and need) all the bandwidth they can get their hands on. The preliminary specification for PCIe 5.0 was published in 2017, and it was finalized in May 2019. Work on the 6.0 specification was announced a few weeks after the 5.0 spec was finalized, and is expected to be finalized this year (though it's not unlikely that it's been delayed due to COVID). If anything, the aberration here is that 3.0 lasted us nearly a decade - that's just quite weird, all things considered. 4.0 was late; 5.0 was worked on to ensure it wouldn't be, same with 6.0. When 6.0 is finalized, no doubt work will start on 7.0, though there's a point of diminishing returns fast approaching in terms of signal integrity and possible trace lengths, so we might see some alternative technology take over by then.

i just compared like someone calls *good* tendention (some m2 slots) "a niche", and giving example what is really "a niche" - btc crap mobos.

humm, i should check current server mobos. interesting, for real. didn't know that. i understand that servers will benefit from more bw of course.

 

[windwhirl]

i have 2 m2 nvme drives in motherboard,

Alright.

and one in m2-pcie adapter

And that's where you enter niche territory. Granted, you did that because you landed a free extra M.2 SSD, but it's niche territory nonetheless.

no need to rip a** and replace my second 256gb ssd for 512gb or 1tb one

I can agree with that. I have two 2 TB drives and when I added a 10 TB drive I kept the older ones around regardless.

(cheaper models of which broke like piece of sh*t)

If you buy cheap, don't expect outstanding quality. Applies to everything, not just computers.

come on, prebuilts are for dummy people who don't wan't to get themself A GOOD PC, they just are okay with ANY PC,

That sounds like shitty elitist speech.

There are no "good" or "bad" PCs, only varying price/performance/features ratios.

Any PC is good as long as it does exactly what you need/want it to do, within an acceptable price range, within an acceptable performance range, and without unexpected shenanigans.

but i haven't seen any prebuilt better than custom one lol...

Oh, sure. In general it's weird for a prebuilt to be better than a custom build, at least in terms of absolute performance/features. However, rarely anything is free in this world and when you add the price to the equation, your so superior custom build doesn't necessarily look all that great because of higher price compared to standard prebuilt, and all for features that won't be needed. This is specially true for a big part of the market that just needs a computer for doing basic office work or other non-intensive tasks.

 

[Valantar]

i just compared like someone calls *good* tendention (some m2 slots) "a niche", and giving example what is really "a niche" - btc crap mobos.

You're still putting words in my mouth. I never said two was good, I said it was acceptable. Three would be great - but also two more than what >90% of users will ever use. Regardless of what you, I, and others on these forums do, most people don't upgrade their internal storage. If you had bothered to actually read what I wrote in this thread instead of malign stuff up, you might have spotted this post a bit further up the page from the one you apparently misread:

IMO 3 m.2 slots is a reasonable offering, with more being along the lines of older PCs having 8+ SATA ports - sure, some people used all of them, but the vast majority even back then used 2 or 3. Two SSDs is pretty common, but three is rather rare, and four is reserved for the people doing consecutive builds and upgrades over long periods an carrying over parts - that's a pretty small minority of PC users (or even builders). Two is too low given the capacity restrictions this brings with it, but still acceptable on lower end builds (and realistically most users will only ever use one or two). Five? I don't see anyone but the most dedicated upgrade fiends actually keeping five m.2 drives in service in a single system

You might have three drives, and there's nothing wrong with that but it's a niche setup. If you have a problem with your habits being niche habits, I sadly can't help you with that. DIY PC building is a niche, upgrading is a niche within that niche, but also a niche within the larger group of people buying prebuilts. But the number of people adding more than one internal SSD to their PCs over time? That's a very low number.

 

[Mussels]

lmfao, pcie 4.0 was just released, there are already news about pcie gen5... for what? mining issues with pcie 4?


yeah, couple of m2 is "niche", but crappy "BTC" mobos are mainstream, cool...

They announce this stuff WAY in advance, compared to actual release

3.0 was an anomaly, like windows XP it lasted a lot longer than usual

 

[chrcoluk]

Not sure why this should come as a surprise to anyone.
However, I am surprised they didn't widened the interface to the chipset, but I guess the workaround was to add four more PCIe 4.0 lanes to the CPU for USB4/Thunderbolt support.
This also makes it clear that AMD is going for DP 2.0.

Widening the interface to the chipset risks conflict with enterprise kit, so they wont do that.

The same reason 16 lanes are pushed to the first full length slot (huge over provision) instead of nerfing that to 8 and using those 8 lanes for the chipset instead.

They don't want people stacking i/o cards in consumer boards.

 

[AleXXX666]

Alright.


And that's where you enter niche territory. Granted, you did that because you landed a free extra M.2 SSD, but it's niche territory nonetheless.


I can agree with that. I have two 2 TB drives and when I added a 10 TB drive I kept the older ones around regardless.

If you buy cheap, don't expect outstanding quality. Applies to everything, not just computers.


That sounds like shitty elitist speech.

There are no "good" or "bad" PCs, only varying price/performance/features ratios.

Any PC is good as long as it does exactly what you need/want it to do, within an acceptable price range, within an acceptable performance range, and without unexpected shenanigans.


Oh, sure. In general it's weird for a prebuilt to be better than a custom build, at least in terms of absolute performance/features. However, rarely anything is free in this world and when you add the price to the equation, your so superior custom build doesn't necessarily look all that great because of higher price compared to standard prebuilt, and all for features that won't be needed. This is specially true for a big part of the market that just needs a computer for doing basic office work or other non-intensive tasks.

if office worker is D*MMY, it can't notice performance difference of dual core vs dual core-HT or quad core, or 4 gb ram vs 8 and 8 vs 12 or 16. also, very FUN example with ssd vs hdd. when you see someone waits for pc to boot up (especially equipped with "super" cpu and "plenty" 4 gigs of ram), you just show up a youtube hdd vs ssd and then it's like this human sees Jesus in reality, lol. their reaction is GOLD....

 

[Mussels]

Widening the interface to the chipset risks conflict with enterprise kit, so they wont do that.

The same reason 16 lanes are pushed to the first full length slot (huge over provision) instead of nerfing that to 8 and using those 8 lanes for the chipset instead.

They don't want people stacking i/o cards in consumer boards.

At least i like how boards these days give you the option to split lanes.

16/4/4 would make the majority of power users really happy, since dual GPU is pretty much dead for gamers

 

[TheLostSwede]

Widening the interface to the chipset risks conflict with enterprise kit, so they wont do that.

The same reason 16 lanes are pushed to the first full length slot (huge over provision) instead of nerfing that to 8 and using those 8 lanes for the chipset instead.

They don't want people stacking i/o cards in consumer boards.

Intel did on Z590 and carried it over to Z690.

 

[chrcoluk]

At least i like how boards these days give you the option to split lanes.

16/4/4 would make the majority of power users really happy, since dual GPU is pretty much dead for gamers

Yeah on high end boards, sadly my b450 pro 4 is locked to 16/4 on the 2 full length slots. Interesting most reviewers put the second full length slot on this board as a pci gen 2 fed from the chipset when both full length slots are gen3 coming from the cpu. The bios has an option to switch to 8/8 but it doesn't do anything. On this board so I have ease of access I have the gpu in the 2nd full length slot and my sata controller card in what is considered the gpu slot. The gpu is a 1030 so gen 3 lanes x4 is plentiful for it still.

I can split on my z370 though.

Intel did on Z590 and carried it over to Z690.

Interesting I didn't know that, it seems it was done to match the x4 pcie gen 4 bandwidth from AMD, so it will be interesting to see if they drop back to 4 once they have a chipset that is pcie gen 4.

 

[TheLostSwede]

Interesting I didn't know that, it seems it was done to match the x4 pcie gen 4 bandwidth from AMD, so it will be interesting to see if they drop back to 4 once they have a chipset that is pcie gen 4.

As I said, they carried it over to Z690, which is PCIe 4.0.

 

[Valantar]

Yeah on high end boards, sadly my b450 pro 4 is locked to 16/4 on the 2 full length slots. Interesting most reviewers put the second full length slot on this board as a pci gen 2 fed from the chipset when both full length slots are gen3 coming from the cpu. The bios has an option to switch to 8/8 but it doesn't do anything. On this board so I have ease of access I have the gpu in the 2nd full length slot and my sata controller card in what is considered the gpu slot. The gpu is a 1030 so gen 3 lanes x4 is plentiful for it still.

I can split on my z370 though.


Interesting I didn't know that, it seems it was done to match the x4 pcie gen 4 bandwidth from AMD, so it will be interesting to see if they drop back to 4 once they have a chipset that is pcie gen 4.

50-series AMD chipsets don't support multi-GPU or lane splitting/bifurcation (only 70-series do), so that explains why that BIOS option does nothing. Kind of weird that it's there at all, tbh. As for your motherboard, it seems slot PCIE4 (the second x16 physical slot) shares lanes with the m.2 slot, so if there's a drive in the m.2 slot that PCIe slot is disabled. That's relatively unusual; most B450 boards would just populate that slot from the chipset instead.

 

[Mussels]

Yeah on high end boards, sadly my b450 pro 4 is locked to 16/4 on the 2 full length slots. Interesting most reviewers put the second full length slot on this board as a pci gen 2 fed from the chipset when both full length slots are gen3 coming from the cpu. The bios has an option to switch to 8/8 but it doesn't do anything. On this board so I have ease of access I have the gpu in the 2nd full length slot and my sata controller card in what is considered the gpu slot. The gpu is a 1030 so gen 3 lanes x4 is plentiful for it still.

I can split on my z370 though.


Interesting I didn't know that, it seems it was done to match the x4 pcie gen 4 bandwidth from AMD, so it will be interesting to see if they drop back to 4 once they have a chipset that is pcie gen 4.

that BIOS switch should work if you have cards in both slots, it wont change anything if it doesnt detect cards to use the bandwidth (it may or may not be smart and not change unless the card is 8x or x16)

 

[chrcoluk]

50-series AMD chipsets don't support multi-GPU or lane splitting/bifurcation (only 70-series do), so that explains why that BIOS option does nothing. Kind of weird that it's there at all, tbh. As for your motherboard, it seems slot PCIE4 (the second x16 physical slot) shares lanes with the m.2 slot, so if there's a drive in the m.2 slot that PCIe slot is disabled. That's relatively unusual; most B450 boards would just populate that slot from the chipset instead.

Yep its in the manual it shares with the m.2 (I think also on the asrock website).

It was interesting to find on a few reviews though where the reviewer stated that slot was just pcie gen 2 from the chipset.

 

[Valantar]

Yep its in the manual it shares with the m.2 (I think also on the asrock website).

It was interesting to find on a few reviews though where the reviewer stated that slot was just pcie gen 2 from the chipset.

Heh, sounds like they either didn't check the manual and just assumed, or copy-pasted that part from some previous review - after all, that is the layout you'd find on 90% of boards, so it's not an unreasonable assumption, but it is definitely lazy.