Several AMD RDNA 4 Architecture Ray Tracing Hardware Features Leaked

[btarunr]

We've known since May that AMD is giving its next generation RDNA 4 graphics architecture a significant upgrade with ray tracing performance, and had some clue since then, that the company is working on putting more of the ray tracing workflow through dedicated, fixed function hardware, unburdening the shader engine further. Kepler_L2, a reliable source with GPU leaks sheds light on some of the many new hardware features AMD is introducing with RDNA 4 to better accelerate ray tracing, which should give its GPUs a reduced performance cost of having ray tracing enabled. Kepler_L2 believes that these hardware features should also make it to the GPU of the upcoming Sony PlayStation 5 Pro.

To begin with, the RDNA 4 ray accelerator introduces the new Double Ray Tracing Intersect Engine, which should at least mean a 100% ray intersection performance increase over RDNA 3, which in turn offered a 50% increase over that of RDNA 2. The new RT instance node transform instruction should improve the way the ray accelerators handle geometry. Some of the other features we have trouble describing include a 64-byte RT node, ray tracing tri-pair optimization, Change flags encoded in barycentrics to simplify detection of procedural nodes; improved BVH footprint (possibly memory footprint): and RT support for oriented bounding box and instance node intersection. AMD is expected to debut Radeon RX series gaming GPUs based on RDNA 4 in early 2025.



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[AusWolf]

In short: it's got things that do things. Awesome... I guess?

I'd much rather see it in action, or at least have some official confirmation on dates or specs instead of getting all these barely intelligible leaks all year round.

 

[tommo1982]

In short: it's got things that do things. Awesome... I guess?

I'd much rather see it in action, or at least have some official confirmation on dates or specs instead of getting all these barely intelligible leaks all year round.

Agreed.

 

[mikesg]

Raytracing belongs in movies not in games...

Light probes are the future of lighting....

 

[NC37]

RDNA3 was such a stopgap. Should give RDNA3 owners a rebate. Clear RDNA3 was dead on arrival and AMD knew it.

 

[AusWolf]

RDNA3 was such a stopgap. Should give RDNA3 owners a rebate. Clear RDNA3 was dead on arrival and AMD knew it.

What makes you say that?

 

[john_]

AMD lost a generation by not improving RT performance with 7000 series. Who knows, maybe they didn't have enough time and resources to do so back then. Let's hope the performance of Radeon cards in RT jumps by 3-4 times because they are way behind Nvidia and Nvidia will come up with 5000 series that might be improving RT performance much more than what 4000 series achieves. If AMD puts a goal of just coming close to 4000 series in RT, they will still look like being far behind when 5000 series comes out and with all the focus and marketing on RT, they will keep having problems selling their cards, even when they are better in raster.

 

[JustBenching]

AMD lost a generation by not improving RT performance with 7000 series. Who knows, maybe they didn't have enough time and resources to do so back then. Let's hope the performance of Radeon cards in RT jumps by 3-4 times because they are way behind Nvidia and Nvidia will come up with 5000 series that might be improving RT performance much more than what 4000 series achieves. If AMD puts a goal of just coming close to 4000 series in RT, they will still look like being far behind when 5000 series comes out and with all the focus and marketing on RT, they will keep having problems selling their cards, even when they are better in raster.

The problem is they ain't better in raster either. Don't know whats going on in the US but in EU the 7900xtx and the 4080 super have the exact same price and they are almost identical in raster.

 

[AusWolf]

AMD lost a generation by not improving RT performance with 7000 series.

With that logic, you could say that they're losing another generation by not improving raster performance now with RDNA 4.

 

[Hecate91]

Nvidia will come up with 5000 series that might be improving RT performance much more than what 4000 series achieves

And likely even higher prices than 4000 series, no thanks.
Even if AMD can deliver similar performance to Nvidia, they will still have problems selling their cards because it's a marketing and mindshare issue more so than an issue of people caring about what RT performance is. Tech reviewers would still claim AMD cards not having features proprietary to Nvidia as a downside.

 

[JustBenching]

With that logic, you could say that they're losing another generation by not improving raster performance now with RDNA 4.

If amd wants to increase their market share (they don't, gpus are very big dies with minimal profits) they need to compete in RT simply because most of the userbase has nvidia cards. A 4080 user isn't going to upgrade to an 8900xtx if that xtx isn't beating it in rt as well.

And likely even higher prices than 4000 series, no thanks.
Even if AMD can deliver similar performance to Nvidia, they will still have problems selling their cards because it's a marketing and mindshare issue more so than an issue of people caring about what RT performance is. Tech reviewers would still claim AMD cards not having features proprietary to Nvidia as a downside.

Absolutely not. If amd cards compete in both raster and rt with nvidia they will fly off the shelves, especially the high end cards. I've been ready to pull the trigger on an amd card since 2017, but they always fail at the high end.

 

[AusWolf]

If amd wants to increase their market share (they don't, gpus are very big dies with minimal profits) they need to compete in RT simply because most of the userbase has nvidia cards. A 4080 user isn't going to upgrade to an 8900xtx if that xtx isn't beating it in rt as well.

Of course they need to compete in RT, but I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to do that on the cost of potential raster performance improvements. Not to mention, RDNA 4 won't be aimed at Nvidia 40 users.

Edit: Time will tell, that's for sure. Personally, I'd be happy with the rumoured 7900 XT equivalent card with improved RT, but I have my doubts about its widespread success.

Absolutely not. If amd cards compete in both raster and rt with nvidia they will fly off the shelves, especially the high end cards. I've been ready to pull the trigger on an amd card since 2017, but they always fail at the high end.

Well, then RDNA 4 isn't for you, either, as it won't even compete in the high end.

 

[JustBenching]

Of course they need to compete in RT, but I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to do that on the cost of potential raster performance improvements. Not to mention, RDNA 4 won't be aimed at Nvidia 40 users.

As of right now they are sacrificing rt performance but they are not getting any additional raster out of it. See xtx vs 4080 / 4080 super.

But why don't you think it won't be aimed at 40 users? You mean that people upgrade every 2 gens?

Well, then RDNA 4 isn't for you, either, as it won't even compete in the high end.

I have a 2nd pc with a 3060ti that will need recycling soon. Bring it on amd, my body is ready

 

[john_]

With that logic, you could say that they're losing another generation by not improving raster performance now with RDNA 4.

Your logic, not mine. Wasn't saying something like that and letting part of the market out, doesn't mean that there isn't improvement in raster. RX 5700 was mid range, but there was improvement over the hi end Vega64.

From the day RX 7000 was announced, I was screaming that the focus will be on RT performance, not raster. While gamers will be using raster graphics 99% of their time, marketing will be focusing mostly on RT performance. So buyers will be looking for RT performance, not raster. And I was right. Also RX 7000 didn't improve in raster either with the exception of bigger chips for the high end. So yes, it was a lost generation for AMD. They build good momentum with RX 5700 and RX 6000 series, they completely lost it with RX 7000.

AMD is gone back in pre RX 5700 period and tries to start again with another RX 5700 story. If RDNA4 is a success in mid range, RDNA5 might be another try on the high end. But it needs to be a killer in RT.

 

[JustBenching]

It's not about marketing. Raster is solved. Who the heck will upgrade his card for raster? A 6800xt from 2020 can play every raster game just fine.

 

[Hecate91]

Absolutely not. If amd cards compete in both raster and rt with nvidia they will fly off the shelves, especially the high end cards. I've been ready to pull the trigger on an amd card since 2017, but they always fail at the high end.

I doubt it, it seems like nvidia buyers always find something to whine about for reasons to not buy an AMD card, one I see the most is RT isn't enough, even though you need an RTX 4090 to get decent RT performance with high settings unless you use DLSS to sacrifice quality on a $1,000+ gpu. Or the complaining about FSR when a review shows a 2X enhanced image people suddenly think the experience will be unusuable in real world usage where most people won't notice.

 

[JustBenching]

I doubt it, it seems like nvidia buyers always find something to whine about for reasons to not buy an AMD card, one I see the most is RT isn't enough, even though you need an RTX 4090 to get decent RT performance with high settings unless you use DLSS to sacrifice quality on a $1,000+ gpu. Or the complaining about FSR when a review shows a 2X enhanced image people suddenly think the experience will be unusuable in real world usage where most people won't notice.

You definitely don't need a 4090 to play rt games. Entirely depends on your resolution. I'm playing rt on my 3060ti, for example hogwarts.

DLSS only drops quality to amd users, whoever has an nvidia card prefers it over native. Heck I activate it even in games that can easily play native.

FSR is fine, worse than dlss but it's fine. Question is, why would you buy an amd card for FSR when nvidia cards also have access to it?

 

[john_]

And likely even higher prices than 4000 series, no thanks.
Even if AMD can deliver similar performance to Nvidia, they will still have problems selling their cards because it's a marketing and mindshare issue more so than an issue of people caring about what RT performance is. Tech reviewers would still claim AMD cards not having features proprietary to Nvidia as a downside.

In the high end yes. In the mid range it will be mostly the same price, for the same performance, plus extra features to make the new cards look evolutionary. What Nvidia does the last 8-10 years. If AMD's RDNA4 is good, we might start seeing Super versions from Nvidia as we have seen with 4000 series when RX cards started looking better buys after their price drops. Unfortunately AMD avoids starting a price war with Nvidia, meaning RDNA4 MSRP prices will align with Nvidia's prices and we will have to wait 6-12 months to see them sliding significantly. This is the current market. We might see Intel bringing something interesting with Battlemage. And Intel might want to start a price war.

I do agree with the rest of your post. It's the current situation where the average consumer will pay $230 for an RTX 3050 over $200 for an RX 6600. AMD failed to read the market last time, they let Nvidia drive the narrative and focus on RT performance, especially with Path Tracing that is a joke today but does make headlines that make Nvidia hardware look unique and everything else obsolete.
Hope AMD also starts integrating AI in it's FSR. Seeing Microsoft's upscaling software doing it, I bet AMD isn't far behind to offer a -for example as with FreeSync- Premium version of FSR.

 

[AusWolf]

As of right now they are sacrificing rt performance but they are not getting any additional raster out of it. See xtx vs 4080 / 4080 super.

The XTX is 50-100 quid cheaper than the 4080 while delivering similar raster performance and slower RT. Take your pick. I'd pick raster vs price ratio over RT, as it's still way more important.

But why don't you think it won't be aimed at 40 users? You mean that people upgrade every 2 gens?

Those of us who don't care about the hardware, just want to play games (that's not me, unfortunately), and have at least 2 brain cells do that, yes. Or even every 3 gens at this rate of advancements.

From the day RX 7000 was announced, I was screaming that the focus will be on RT performance, not raster.

I was screaming that back in the Turing days. Now, 6 years later, seeing that RT is still only an option for owners of flagship cards (that have become way more expensive), I wouldn't make such bold claims.

 

[JustBenching]

The XTX is 50-100 quid cheaper than the 4080 while delivering similar raster performance and slower RT. Take your pick. I'd pick raster vs price ratio over RT, as it's still way more important

In EU it isn't. Just checked, you can find both at 999. Talking about the 4080 super.

 

[AusWolf]

In EU it isn't. Just checked, you can find both at 999. Talking about the 4080 super.

That's fine, then. In the UK, it isn't the same. AMD is cheaper here across all tiers.

 

[JustBenching]

That's fine, then. In the UK, it isn't the same. AMD is cheaper here across all tiers.

Just checked and you are correct, in the UK is 929 vs 870 pounds. Not a big enough difference to sway me over but it's there

 

[wolf]

Good, one of the many things they need to get right to tempt people away from nvidia products from my perspective. It would be absolutely amazing if they can even leapfrog Nvidia in RT perf, ie less render time lost to add the effects, but I won't hold my breath for miracles. Viable path tracing would be a start.

 

[64K]

This is more good news and more hope for a healthier market because the Market Share right now is not healthy at all.

Setting aside the Nvidia mindshare issue which is real but what AMD is doing about RT performance isn't going to turn that around completely but possibly make a dent in it. I hear it over and over that AMD needs to compete more with Nvidia but sometimes it seems that the message is really that AMD needs to compete more with Nvidia by not competing with Nvidia. Nvidia is pushing RT hard. That's going to be the future. There will continue to be software improvements to keep frame rates from tanking but eventually all those old GPUs will get replaced with GPUs that can handle RT better. Note that I'm not talking about fully raytraced games, just a mixture of raytracing and rasterization like we have now.

Inevitably someone will say that there are hardly any games that use RT but that's not true. For now there are over 500 games using some RT and there are guaranteed to be thousands and thousands more as the years roll by.

 

[AusWolf]

Just checked and you are correct, in the UK is 929 vs 870 pounds. Not a big enough difference to sway me over but it's there

To be honest, a lot of the stuff these days doesn't sway me anywhere because it's either not that exciting, or way too expensive. But that's just me.

If the price is right, I'll probably get a big Navi 4 to replace the 7800 XT that I sold not long ago, and call it a day for the next few generations.