9800x 3d vs 12900k - Battle of the Century

[JustBenching]

Dwarf Fortress is the one likely to be best suited, the game is free and there are a bunch of saves avaliable, and there's a built in FPS counter... The game is more dependant on memory though I think, but it would still be interesting. Will try to find something this evening or tomorrow after work.

Also, plz post something here as well along with the video (just some numbers written down is enough).


I forget how the game works, is it possible to save during something FPS-draining?

Ill post the video when it's ready (after some feedback I want to take my time and tinker a bit with the 9800x 3d to give it it's best chance to shine), I'll also share my impressions etc.

Regarding dwarf fortress - if you can send me a save that's heavy so I can test with that one, would be appreciated.

An average-above average chip should be able to do something like the following easily…

View attachment 371467

VSOC range will be roughly 1.2-1.3 depending on chip quality. Safe trfc for a-die is also significantly lower (120-130ns). Memory voltages will vary based on your kit.

Yeah, I figured I can drop TRFC a bit (480) cause im running A die. Sadly I think my kit is kinda bad, can't drop below 30CL even at 6000 @ 1.45v. This is the best I could do with alderlake

 

[mb194dc]

makes perfect sense -- look at 5800x3d reviews from 2 years ago with a 3090 and now compare them to games running today with 4080/4090. Also the 9800X3D will annihilate a 7950X with SMT off in gaming in anything that isn't completely GPU bound.

Ryzen 7 9800X3D, Really Faster For Real-World 4K Gaming?
2022:
View attachment 371453

2024:
View attachment 371455

They're using upscaling as well at 4k, if people want to spend thousands on hardware and make the image quality worse up to them I guess. 9800x3d is an ultra niche use case chip for me, or for those with unlimited budget, better off saving the money and getting a 9700x or something prior gen and spending more on GFX. Or Getting 7950x and the 8 extra cores if you do productivity stuff for the same price.

Most use cases pretty much are GPU bound at 1440p+ with a mid or even high range card, so any modern CPU going to do the job largely. You have to create ridiculous scenarios few if any would actually use to make CPUs look a worthwhile upgrade now... So put the 12900k at native 4k Ultra v 9800x3d and lets have a look.

In this case it's even sillier given no one seemingly buying anything other than 9800x3d and some great deals on the other AM5 chips.

 

[Frick]

@fevgatos Do you have Stellaris?

 

[rv8000]

Ill post the video when it's ready (after some feedback I want to take my time and tinker a bit with the 9800x 3d to give it it's best chance to shine), I'll also share my impressions etc.

Regarding dwarf fortress - if you can send me a save that's heavy so I can test with that one, would be appreciated.


Yeah, I figured I can drop TRFC a bit (480) cause im running A die. Sadly I think my kit is kinda bad, can't drop below 30CL even at 6000 @ 1.45v. This is the best I could do with alderlake

View attachment 371468

c28/c26 on AM5 generally require 1.5+ and and 1.6+ vdd respectively

 

[JustBenching]

@fevgatos Do you have Stellaris?

No but I can get it if you want me to test, no problem. But I need guidelines, I don't play 4x strategy games

c28/c26 on AM5 generally require 1.5+ and and 1.6+ vdd respectively

That will require active cooling to pass memtestt most likely, im already getting 55+ at 1.45v. So..okay, I just ordered a ram cooler

 

[Vayra86]

They're using upscaling as well at 4k, if people want to spend thousands on hardware and make the image quality worse up to them I guess. 9800x3d is an ultra niche use case chip for me, or for those with unlimited budget, better off saving the money and getting a 9700x or something prior gen and spending more on GFX. Or Getting 7950x and the 8 extra cores if you do productivity stuff for the same price.

Most use cases pretty much are GPU bound at 1440p+ with a mid or even high range card, so any modern CPU going to do the job largely. You have to create ridiculous scenarios few if any would actually use to make CPUs look a worthwhile upgrade now... So put the 12900k at native 4k Ultra v 9800x3d and lets have a look.

In this case it's even sillier given no one seemingly buying anything other than 9800x3d and some great deals on the other AM5 chips.

In case you missed it, the 3 game average for a ' way too fast' 5800X3D in 2022 was 188 FPS.

Two years later at the same res, its 118 FPS. Could be different games, but does it matter? The gist is, games will hammer the CPU harder over time, as the GPU grunt increases, playing at the same res. It doesn't matter at all if you're at 4K or 1080p. What matters is whether you're limited by games. And even 9800X3D will still run into various games that will absolutely nuke it into the ground.

The fact you don't know or play them doesn't mean they're irrelevant. Additionally if you chase high refresh over image quality, that's another choice that leans heavily on CPU. And if you have a 4090 you can probably have both in most places, too.

There are absolute metric tons of games that run on a midrange hardware at 4K. The triple A mainstream fare? Totally irrelevant here, but if that's your perspective on what gaming is about... you really haven't seen much of it. Also, you can keep CPUs for a long time; I'm still running a 3570k that's twice as old as my daughter right now. Does HTPC jobs fine, and was at the time of purchase a 'murder any game' CPU too.

Powerful hardware just keeps going for so long, it almost always pays off. And this is even more true ever since an odd 10 years ago, when the biggest strides in CPU started to cease or space themselves out much further. When a big CPU development happens, you can jump on it and stay there for a decade. It happened with Core's Sandy Bridge; it happened with Zen's X3Ds. Everything in between is barely relevant in comparison, its just more of the same with a few % here or there.

 

[JustBenching]

In case you missed it, the 3 game average for a ' way too fast' 5800X3D in 2022 was 188 FPS.

Two years later at the same res, its 118 FPS. Could be different games, but does it matter? The gist is, games will hammer the CPU harder over time, as the GPU grunt increases, playing at the same res. It doesn't matter at all if you're at 4K or 1080p. What matters is whether you're limited by games. And even 9800X3D will still run into various games that will absolutely nuke it into the ground.

The fact you don't know or play them doesn't mean they're irrelevant. Additionally if you chase high refresh over image quality, that's another choice that leans heavily on CPU. And if you have a 4090 you can probably have both in most places, too.

There are absolute metric tons of games that run on a midrange hardware at 4K. The triple A mainstream fare? Totally irrelevant here, but if that's your perspective on what gaming is about... you really haven't seen much of it. Also, you can keep CPUs for a long time; I'm still running a 3570k that's twice as old as my daughter right now. Does HTPC jobs fine, and was at the time of purchase a 'murder any game' CPU too.

Powerful hardware just keeps going for so long, it almost always pays off. And this is even more true ever since an odd 10 years ago, when the biggest strides in CPU started to cease or space themselves out much further. When a big CPU development happens, you can jump on it and stay there for a decade. It happened with Core's Sandy Bridge; it happened with Zen's X3Ds. Everything in between is barely relevant in comparison, its just more of the same with a few % here or there.

Yeap, 480$ is steep for an 8 core chip, but I can easily see it chug along in like 2030 -at 4k with the highest gpu of the time. It's certainly more "value" than buying a 9700x and then upgrade to a 11700x or whatever.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Yeap, 480$ is steep for an 8 core chip, but I can easily see it chug along in like 2030 -at 4k with the highest gpu of the time. It's certainly more "value" than buying a 9700x and then upgrade to a 11700x or whatever.

And that's even assuming AMD graces AM5 with a worthwhile upgrade going forward. Most the heavy lifting of the 9800X3D is from the redesigned 3D$ not the actual architectural improvements so unless Zen6 is both on AM5 and a worthwhile improvement the 9800X3D could be it.

They really need to update the IF and the memory controller to handle faster speeds even 7000 1:1 would likely be a large improvement..... I doubt they can do that on the same socket but would love to be wrong.

 

[phanbuey]

And that's even assuming AMD graces AM5 with a worthwhile upgrade going forward. Most the heavy lifting of the 9800X3D is from the redesigned 3D$ not the actual architectural improvements so unless Zen6 is both on AM5 and a worthwhile improvement the 9800X3D could be it.

They really need to update the IF and the memory controller to handle faster speeds even 7000 1:1 would likely be a large improvement..... I doubt they can do that on the same socket but would love to be wrong.

They upgraded the IF and MC on AM4 -- they should be able to do it on AM5 as well... even this janky $100 pre-owned B650 msi board can run at 7200 mhz, so even possible on older AM5 boards. I agree the ram latency and performance is pretty rough. But can confirm apart from synthetic memory benches the machine feels awesome - things open noticeably faster than before.

 

[Redwoodz]

And that's even assuming AMD graces AM5 with a worthwhile upgrade going forward. Most the heavy lifting of the 9800X3D is from the redesigned 3D$ not the actual architectural improvements so unless Zen6 is both on AM5 and a worthwhile improvement the 9800X3D could be it.

They really need to update the IF and the memory controller to handle faster speeds even 7000 1:1 would likely be a large improvement..... I doubt they can do that on the same socket but would love to be wrong.

There are some changes that don't really improve gaming that much, but is noticeable elsewhere. Windows is very snappy and FPU performance is waay better in synthetics.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

There are some changes that don't really improve gaming that much, but is noticeable elsewhere. Windows is very snappy and FPU performance is waay better in synthetics.

I was talking just specifically gaming. Which while isn't everything I do with my pc is still the primary reason I'd upgrade to a new CPU.

They upgraded the IF and MC on AM4 -- they should be able to do it on AM5 as well... even this janky $100 pre-owned B650 msi board can run at 7200 mhz, so even possible on older AM5 boards. I agree the ram latency and performance is pretty rough. But can confirm apart from synthetic memory benches the machine feels awesome - things open noticeably faster than before.

Let's hope!

 

[rv8000]

And that's even assuming AMD graces AM5 with a worthwhile upgrade going forward. Most the heavy lifting of the 9800X3D is from the redesigned 3D$ not the actual architectural improvements so unless Zen6 is both on AM5 and a worthwhile improvement the 9800X3D could be it.

They really need to update the IF and the memory controller to handle faster speeds even 7000 1:1 would likely be a large improvement..... I doubt they can do that on the same socket but would love to be wrong.

Zen 6 would benefit most from I/O die updates and wider/faster fabric. Memory controller would be less important, especially if cu-dimm is supported as 2:1 speeds at 10000+ would be more than adequate. 3000+ fclk would be a beautiful thing.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Zen 6 would benefit most from I/O die updates and wider/faster fabric. Memory controller would be less important, especially if cu-dimm is supported as 2:1 speeds at 10000+ would be more than adequate. 3000+ fclk would be a beautiful thing.

Meant the I/O die... For sure though

 

[R-T-B]

is it possible to save during something FPS-draining?

Yes but you will need the same mods to reload it.

 

[Cowboystrekk]

I would aim for 8200 or 8400 with 2200fclk if you are able to

 

[rv8000]

I would aim for 8200 or 8400 with 2200fclk if you are able to

Unless you have a gene or tachyon, shooting for 8000+ daily is a nightmare and something I’d highly recommend against on a single ccd zen 4/5 part. It takes hundreds of hours (I’ve spent literal weeks with multiple kits testing this) in order to get a system properly stable with timings that make 2:1 beneficial over 6400 1:1 with tight timings.

 

[Cowboystrekk]

Unless you have a gene or tachyon, shooting for 8000+ daily is a nightmare and something I’d highly recommend against on a single ccd zen 4/5 part. It takes hundreds of hours (I’ve spent literal weeks with multiple kits testing this) in order to get a system properly stable with timings that make 2:1 beneficial over 6400 1:1 with tight timings.

I know several people who has managed without much hassle, but it requires a 2dimm like b650m hdv, b650i's etc mobo or the very high end 4dimms. You need A-die or 24gb M-die aswell. I agree 6400 would be best for 90% of the cases, but if you want the best of the best 8000+

 

[phanbuey]

An average-above average chip should be able to do something like the following easily…

View attachment 371467

VSOC range will be roughly 1.2-1.3 depending on chip quality. Safe trfc for a-die is also significantly lower (120-130ns). Memory voltages will vary based on your kit.

are the 24gb dimms slower than the 16/32 dimms?

 

[rv8000]

are the 24gb dimms slower than the 16/32 dimms?

M-die is less stressful on the imc, better chance for 8000mhz if your chip is good and you’ve got a proper board.

Ultimately a-die is faster. Tighter trfc, rrds and rrdl, and can clock well, but is more likely to require more vdd/vddq.

Dual rank sticks also offer a slight advantage in certain games/applications, but will require additional tertiary timing tuning.

 

[wolf]

Ordered a 9800X3D myself, few reasons why but that's beside the point, really looking forward to seeing the CPU bound uplift in certain games like Space Marine 2.

Does anyone have any specific RAM kits to recommend? Looks like I'll be pairing it with a Gigabyte B650I AX, and from what I'm gathering 6000-6400 CL28-32 is around where I should be aiming, I'm not really interested in RAM tweaking so a set and forget option suits me, the shorter the better and zero need for RGB.

Locally sourced options in Australia highly preferable, if that helps.

 

[oxrufiioxo]

Ordered a 9800X3D myself, few reasons why but that's beside the point, really looking forward to seeing the CPU bound uplift in certain games like Space Marine 2.

Does anyone have any specific RAM kits to recommend? Looks like I'll be pairing it with a Gigabyte B650I AX, and from what I'm gathering 6000-6400 CL28-32 is around where I should be aiming, I'm not really interested in RAM tweaking so a set and forget option suits me, the shorter the better and zero need for RGB.

Locally sourced options in Australia highly preferable, if that helps.

Either Hynix A or M die is fine 2x16 for A die 2x24 for M die is what I'd be shooting for

6000 CL30 is the least amount of headaches/Bang for bucks champion imho.

6000 CL28 if you don't have to pay a ton extra for it although that's going to likely guarantee A/M die.

 

[JustBenching]

@fevgatos Do you have Stellaris?

So I tried factorio, did the sia 50k map - broke the 12900k record but the 9800x 3d is waaay faster than that. Im getting 62-64 UPS with 12900k, barely beating the 7800x 3d, the 9800x 3d is getting 75-80. LOL

 

[Cowboystrekk]

M-die is less stressful on the imc, better chance for 8000mhz if your chip is good and you’ve got a proper board.

Ultimately a-die is faster. Tighter trfc, rrds and rrdl, and can clock well, but is more likely to require more vdd/vddq.

Dual rank sticks also offer a slight advantage in certain games/applications, but will require additional tertiary timing tuning.

And DR is even worse for imc. You need more SOC voltage. I have DR A-die and they are painful to tune and needs 40mv higher SOC vs M-die, but at 6000 I can run RCD 34, RP 30 and RFC 360 vs 35, 35, 480 on M-die

 

[Launcestonian]

Ordered a 9800X3D myself, few reasons why but that's beside the point, really looking forward to seeing the CPU bound uplift in certain games like Space Marine 2.

Does anyone have any specific RAM kits to recommend? Looks like I'll be pairing it with a Gigabyte B650I AX, and from what I'm gathering 6000-6400 CL28-32 is around where I should be aiming, I'm not really interested in RAM tweaking so a set and forget option suits me, the shorter the better and zero need for RGB.

Locally sourced options in Australia highly preferable, if that helps.

Your board is unusual in so much that Gigabyte have not differentiated between 7000, 8000 & 9000 memory support.... yet. I use a Gigabyte board myself, also B650 & they've done a fine job of memory support list for that board. In your case however, I would just go with the top tier 6400MT/s kits, whatever you can get in Australia today. No need to stress about running 6400 though, just slight downclock to 6200 or even 6000. The 9800X3D is on the CPU support list though.

 

[JustBenching]

Got some information from the horse's mouth itself (cough amd cough), the ideal target should be 6600c26 1:1 IMC with 2200 FCLK. Should be doable at 1.7 VDD and 1.6 VDDQ. Needs active cooling (obviously). Ill target that first and if it flops ill go for 8k.

Problem is, how do you stress test this? You start just with FCLK, check if that's stable, and then target the ram / IMC afterwards?