Amazon.nl Lists Intel Core "Alder Lake" Processors, i9-12900K Sells for 847 Euros

[Deleted member 24505]

11700 is a better deal than 3700X or 5800X
10400F is a better deal than pretty much anything

Intel are dominating the midrange because AMD won't compete on price there any more (and why should they?)
This is (finally) what healthy CPU competition looks like.

Isn't mid range where most sales are though, there must be more of them and less of the enthusiasts that pay stupid money for the higher end stuff.

 

[Chrispy_]

Isn't mid range where most sales are though, there must be more of them and less of the enthusiasts that pay stupid money for the higher end stuff.

Absolutely. Even among forum users for a hardware enthusiast site like TPU, midrange CPUs outnumber high-end CPUs in the system specs (for those of us that put serious system specs in their sig, guilty as charged!)

 

[Makaveli]

Absolutely. Even among forum users for a hardware enthusiast site like TPU, midrange CPUs outnumber high-end CPUs in the system specs (for those of us that put serious system specs in their sig, guilty as charged!)

lol with those super sonic atom cores you got there

 

[neatfeatguy]

All of the EU and UK get bummed by tax, the US has it easy.

Taxes suck all around, regardless of where you live.

Spoiler

In the US, depending on where you live you could have tax rates of all sorts of kind.

In MN, where I live, taxes can vary from county to county and town to town. In Minneapolis alone sales tax is 10%, but in Brooklyn Center (just west of Minneapolis) the sales tax is 7.53%, yet both cities reside in the same county (Hennepin).

Then you have gas tax. The US Government (Federal) takes $0.183 per gallon and depending on state, it can be anywhere from $0.0895 per gallon (Alaska) to $0.519952 per gallon (Washington)....this is just normal unleaded gas. Diesel generally has a different tax rate.

For me, in MN, between State and Federal income tax it'll come out to roughly 12.5% of my yearly earnings.

Then it also depends on State and city, for what your sales tax is on items. It can also vary by State as to what exactly is taxed, in MN for example, clothing does not have taxes on it, but Wisconsin (just about 45 minutes east of where I live in MN) does tax clothing. Sales tax on items varies a lot, city to city; In Minneapolis, the sales tax is 10%. However, one of the neighboring cities (Brooklyn Park, for example) that's connected to Minneapolis has a sales tax of 7.53%.

Don't forget property taxes - these can vary county to county or even city to city. Hennepin county (where Minneapolis is located) the average property tax on a household is around 1.25% of the home's value.

In all, I'd venture to guess that most US residents pay upwards 30-35% of their yearly earnings back to the Government bodies as taxes in some shape or form.
For me, personally, between Income tax and property tax - that comes out to around 20% of my yearly income that just goes straight back out to the Government.

All that aside, taxes suck. They suck because it's never enough for the hungry governments, always wanting to tax more, more, more! Even after they double/triple/quadruple dip on taxing of things, it's still never enough.

 

[Why_Me]

Taxes suck all around, regardless of where you live.

Spoiler

In the US, depending on where you live you could have tax rates of all sorts of kind.

In MN, where I live, taxes can vary from county to county and town to town. In Minneapolis alone sales tax is 10%, but in Brooklyn Center (just west of Minneapolis) the sales tax is 7.53%, yet both cities reside in the same county (Hennepin).

Then you have gas tax. The US Government (Federal) takes $0.183 per gallon and depending on state, it can be anywhere from $0.0895 per gallon (Alaska) to $0.519952 per gallon (Washington)....this is just normal unleaded gas. Diesel generally has a different tax rate.

For me, in MN, between State and Federal income tax it'll come out to roughly 12.5% of my yearly earnings.

Then it also depends on State and city, for what your sales tax is on items. It can also vary by State as to what exactly is taxed, in MN for example, clothing does not have taxes on it, but Wisconsin (just about 45 minutes east of where I live in MN) does tax clothing. Sales tax on items varies a lot, city to city; In Minneapolis, the sales tax is 10%. However, one of the neighboring cities (Brooklyn Park, for example) that's connected to Minneapolis has a sales tax of 7.53%.

Don't forget property taxes - these can vary county to county or even city to city. Hennepin county (where Minneapolis is located) the average property tax on a household is around 1.25% of the home's value.

In all, I'd venture to guess that most US residents pay upwards 30-35% of their yearly earnings back to the Government bodies as taxes in some shape or form.
For me, personally, between Income tax and property tax - that comes out to around 20% of my yearly income that just goes straight back out to the Government.

All that aside, taxes suck. They suck because it's never enough for the hungry governments, always wanting to tax more, more, more! Even after they double/triple/quadruple dip on taxing of things, it's still never enough.

No sales tax for my state (Alaska).

 

[RedelZaVedno]

"i7-12700K is listed at 642€"

That's like $750... Even if one excl VAT it still costs more than 600 bucks. Totally F***ed up. I hope these prices aren't real.

 

[Operandi]

Either way, the i9 looks more pointless than ever for Alder Lake, paying a huge premium just to get four more Atom E-cores is bonkers. A high-end flagship desktop doesn't prioritise power-efficiency and paying even $200 for an extra quad-core atom bolted on is terrible value, even if it was something that you'd legitimately need or want in a desktop. At €200 for a quad-core Atom you're being mugged, near enough.

Nope, Alder Lake is all about taming power usage for mobile parts. Alder Lake-S is simply the inevitable desktop chip that shares the architecture and I would be surprised if much or indeed any software can truly exploit this big.LITTLE architecture before Alder Lake is superceded entirely by the next generation(s). Comparisons between the i9 and i7 are going to be very interesting when the launch reviews arrive.

Alder Lake and "big.LITTLE" isn't just about keeping power in check. The 'LITTLE' cores are more efficient in terms of performance per watt and die space than the 'big' cores so in situations where you have highly parallel workloads a bunch of the smaller cores will out perform the larger performance cores. Inversely where the workload isn't highly parallel using a few of the performance cores is going to provide the best performance.

 

[seth1911]

Hmm im waiting for the IGP review with DDR5,
after the AM4 Chipset nightmare and the kick in the ass about Renoir and now the 5300G i dont wanna buy anything in the future from AMD.

Dirty Company as F.....

 

[Vayra86]

Alder Lake and "big.LITTLE" isn't just about keeping power in check. The 'LITTLE' cores are more efficient in terms of performance per watt and die space than the 'big' cores so in situations where you have highly parallel workloads a bunch of the smaller cores will out perform the larger performance cores. Inversely where the workload isn't highly parallel using a few of the performance cores is going to provide the best performance.

This effectively says its about keeping power in check This is the only way Intel can get more performance out of their samey cores within the same power budget. Little enables that while being pseudo higher core count for the stuff that needs it. Let's face it, we've all been saying mainstream kinda caps out at 8 physical cores because more just doesn't bring the benefits and even 8 physical cores can royally exceed sensible TDPs. Intel listened and provides us with something new in the leftover space. Clocking P any higher was already problematic on previous archs, so why not throw tiny stuff along on the side there. That's really what this is. Another bit of fruit they can harvest is the 'X power over X time' metric they use to determine turbo frequencies. More E-cores is more headroom in the same X time for bursty P core loads. They can cheat benchmarks a little bit with that, most likely, but I'd want extensive proof of it being better sustained performance too, as it realistically can't be.

Somehow thinking they have a new winner here besides the IPC increases they have made on the core/arch themselves, is an illusion. Which is why we also just as happily see BIG.0-little products in the Alder Lake stack because the desktop simply doesn't need them, and there is no conceivable use case for more.

Die size is a cost effectiveness consideration, its not like they can't make 'em bigger and smack 16 P cores on it but what's the point if you're burning holes in your board then.

 

[Operandi]

This effectively says its about keeping power in check

Yeah, your right. What I meant to say was its not just about keeping power in check for mobile. Intel clearly has some "issues" with power consumption with their performance cores so they realistically might not have any other option than to do do what they did for multithreading performance, 16 performance cores would just burst into flames.

 

[Chrispy_]

This effectively says its about keeping power in check This is the only way Intel can get more performance out of their samey cores within the same power budget. Little enables that while being pseudo higher core count for the stuff that needs it. Let's face it, we've all been saying mainstream kinda caps out at 8 physical cores because more just doesn't bring the benefits and even 8 physical cores can royally exceed sensible TDPs.

I suggested in another Alder Lake article that Intel should offer something more productivity focused for i9 than i7, since the 8 P-cores in the i7 are already basically the absolute max that 99% of consumer software can even really use effectively.

For those that want a more productivity-focused system, Intel could take their building blocks and push the E-cores whilst still providing, say, 4C/8T for stuff that isn't running on E-cores. After all, when the i7/i9 actually differentiate themselves from the mainstream 6C CPUs, it's not really because of the extra cores, it's more the higher boost clocks running single-threads and to a secondary extent the extra cache.

I'd bet there's more than a few people who would be drooling over a hypothetical chip like this with 4C/8T P-cores and 32 E-cores....

5.x GHz of Sunny Cove cores when you need it, but 32 Tremont cores for really getting that render/simulation/encode done in half the time without setting fire to your motherboard VRMs.

lol with those super sonic atom cores you got there

Yeah, in-order Atom cores, too. Man those things absolutely fly with their single-channel RAM. Who needs Alder-lake anyway?

 

[kane nas]

In addition to the high price, something else also changed...3.6 but now is 3.2ghz?

 

[LemmingOverlord]

'21% cumulative tax' <--- that part of the article. That tax is crazy high.

Country	VAT
Austria	20%
Belgium	21%
Bulgaria	20%
Croatia	25%
Cyprus	19%
Czech Republic	21%
Denmark	25%
Estonia	20%
Finland	24%
France	20%
Germany	19%
Greece	24%
Hungary	27%
Ireland	23%
Italy	22%
Latvia	21%
Lithuania	21%
Luxembourg	17%
Malta	18%
Monaco	20%
Netherlands	21%
Poland	23%
Portugal	23%
Romania	19%
Slovakia	20%
Slovenia	22%
Spain	21%
Sweden	25%
UK	20%

 

[AusWolf]

In addition to the high price, something else also changed...3.6 but now is 3.2ghz?

Interesting... though I don't think it matters much. Intel hasn't been relying on base speeds for quite a while now.

 

[Vayra86]

Interesting... though I don't think it matters much. Intel hasn't been relying on base speeds for quite a while now.

The drop to base clock which in many high turbo clock CPUs has been substantial, is still going to be substantial. That certainly does matter because this is where Intel meets its TDP spec and makes the CPUs worse in sustained performance to cater to good marketing Ghz.

 

[las]

All of the EU and UK get bummed by tax, the US has it easy.

Thats because most EU contries have free health care, among other things.

However most US prices are without tax because it depends on state, +10% on avg. on top of listing price, yes?

 

[AusWolf]

The drop to base clock which in many high turbo clock CPUs has been substantial, is still going to be substantial. That certainly does matter because this is where Intel meets its TDP spec and makes the CPUs worse in sustained performance to cater to good marketing Ghz.

Point taken. Though personally, I tend to think of it more like a promised minimally achievable all-core clock under worst case scenarios, that with a proper motherboard and cooling (and a slight tweaking in BIOS), you'll never see in real-world usage. Kind of like the base clock on a modern GPU.

For example, my 11700 is specced as a 2.5 GHz base CPU. The only way I can see it running at that speed is by leaving PL values at default, and running Prime95 (even in Cinebench all-core, it does 2.8 GHz). Even then, it maxes out at 60 °C with a £40 Shadow Rock LP, so there's plenty of power headroom there even with this basic cooler.

 

[Vayra86]

Point taken. Though personally, I tend to think of it more like a promised minimally achievable all-core clock under worst case scenarios, that with a proper motherboard and cooling (and a slight tweaking in BIOS), you'll never see in real-world usage. Kind of like the base clock on a modern GPU.

For example, my 11700 is specced as a 2.5 GHz base CPU. The only way I can see it running at that speed is by leaving PL values at default, and running Prime95 (even in Cinebench all-core, it does 2.8 GHz). Even then, it maxes out at 60 °C with a £40 Shadow Rock LP, so there's plenty of power headroom there even with this basic cooler.

Its really not applicable to unlocked CPUs, which is where all bets are off when it comes to the cooling you then need to keep it performing as you want.

But for locked CPUs, the last ten-fifteen years we've seen Intel stretch the turbo at the expense of base clock, just to keep winning benchmarks, because the sustained performance isn't there like you say... 2.8 Ghz and we're singing praise because its 300 mhz above an abysmal 2.5? Come on. In 2013 the base was 3.4 Ghz or better.

We can explain this in various ways, its not all negative, of course Intel CPUs are pretty flexible on voltage and turbo which has long kept them the efficiency crown, but at the same time they've created a complete mist around what their clocks actually do and they're using it to market the turbo, not the base, while the latter is what most people will see a lot more of. The end sustained performance of last generations has been largely stagnant, which is the true story.

 

[AusWolf]

Its really not applicable to unlocked CPUs, which is where all bets are off when it comes to the cooling you then need to keep it performing as you want.

But for locked CPUs, the last ten-fifteen years we've seen Intel stretch the turbo at the expense of base clock, just to keep winning benchmarks, because the sustained performance isn't there like you say... 2.8 Ghz and we're singing praise because its 300 mhz above an abysmal 2.5? Come on. In 2013 the base was 3.4 Ghz or better.

We can explain this in various ways, its not all negative, of course Intel CPUs are pretty flexible on voltage and turbo which has long kept them the efficiency crown, but at the same time they've created a complete mist around what their clocks actually do and they're using it to market the turbo, not the base, while the latter is what most people will see a lot more of. The end sustained performance of last generations has been largely stagnant, which is the true story.

It depends on what you use the CPU for. What I talked about is a sustained all-core workload, which I think most people never see. In fact, in games, I see clocks in the 4-4.3 GHz range and power consumption around 50-60 W - and that's with the IMC in gear 1 and the iGPU enabled for dual display. It's easy to scoff at modern Intel CPUs for their ridiculously low base clocks and high power consumption in all-core loads, but the truth is, in real-world scenarios, they're quite conservative with power, thus letting clocks sit in the commonly acceptable range.

If you're a content creator and run Blender 24/7, that's a different story.

Edit: Also, GHz in the past and GHz today can't be compared. Intel was stuck on 4 cores for a looong time. Today, with 8 cores, my locked 11700 at 2.8 GHz achieves the same Cinebench score as a Ryzen 5 3600 stock. I know, it sounds ridiculous (it probably is), but let's not forget that 1. you don't really need more for games, 2. this chip is a lot easier to cool than a 3600 in SFF situations (that's the only reason I bought it) and 3. with a proper motherboard and cooling, you always have the option to unlock it, bringing it in league with the 5800G and 5800X. Sure, it eats around 160 W then, but you have 4.4 GHz all-core sustained. I'm not saying that it's brilliant, but certainly not as bad as people and the media like to believe.

 

[Why_Me]

Thats because most EU contries have free health care, among other things.

However most US prices are without tax because it depends on state, +10% on avg. on top of listing price, yes?

 

[EmerilLIVE]

This isn't accurate as there is also local sales tax. In GA total sales tax is typically 8%, in TN it is 10%.

On the EU list, obviously it excludes Switzerland as they are not a member. Their VAT/sales tax is only 7.7%.

 

[Why_Me]

This isn't accurate as there is also local sales tax. In GA total sales tax is typically 8%, in TN it is 10%.

On the EU list, obviously it excludes Switzerland as they are not a member. Their VAT/sales tax is only 7.7%.

There's no local sales tax where I live but in the next town over where my brother lives there's a 2.2% sales tax but that doesn't affect online purchases.

 

[TheEndIsNear]

As an American living in Germany, I must say you are correct. Then when we buy with the dollar in Germany, the dollar to euro conversion is rough 20% and then add the 19% VAT...it sucks! However, it is easier to buy computer parts here than in the states.

I live near the Canadian border I love the exchange rate. Oh I don't get taxed. I'd say probably 40% of what I make goes towards some kind of tax, property tax is insane in upstate NY. I would take a flat tax or consumption tax over the screwing I take being in the middle class in the U.S. This post would be a couple pages long if I listed every tax i pay and sometimes twice even though it's supposedly illegal. My country whatever it is now is garbage and getting worse. And if the rest of world is worst than what this country has become I have 0 hope. Oh and that 40k is just Federal and State tax.

 

[seth1911]

9600K 249€
10600K 249€
11600k 249€

12900K 324€

 

[mechtech]

You think? We have 27% here...

ouch, and I thought 13% sales tax was bad.

Hopefully that 27% get you guys some decent services at least.

I live near the Canadian border I love the exchange rate. Oh I don't get taxed. I'd say probably 40% of what I make goes towards some kind of tax, property tax is insane in upstate NY. I would take a flat tax or consumption tax over the screwing I take being in the middle class in the U.S. This post would be a couple pages long if I listed every tax i pay and sometimes twice even though it's supposedly illegal. My country whatever it is now is garbage and getting worse. And if the rest of world is worst than what this country has become I have 0 hope. Oh and that 40k is just Federal and State tax.

On the positive side, Quebec hydro didnt tariff the crap out of hydro like Trump did to everything

And yes, even though I'm not an American, 'Ike' would be turning in his grave right now if he seen how downhill things went.

Absolutely. Even among forum users for a hardware enthusiast site like TPU, midrange CPUs outnumber high-end CPUs in the system specs (for those of us that put serious system specs in their sig, guilty as charged!)

Is it a PC or a chromebook??