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AMD Confirms it Won't Block any Workloads on its Graphics Cards - Including Mining

bug

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I am 100% against mining but I do prefers the AMD stance just because they are honest about it unlike Nvidia.
Reading your post I am reminded of one of the more recent patterns in troll posts from Russia: "I don't like the Russians either, but <proceeds_to_explain_how_the_russians_are_right_and_the_rest_of_the_world_is_wrong>".
 
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The driver is open source, but the firmware it requires to function is not.
But it is unsigned where on nvidia it IS signed. This means you can likewise mod AMD firmware but not nvidia.

Defective? Miners run their cards undevolted and optimized for power usage. A mining card will probably be in a better condition than a gamer card, especially for newer models that turbo up to the very limits of the silicon itself. Constant load is also far better for component longevity than bursty loads and constant power on/off cycles of a normal gaming card.
The only thing I worry about is the same thing that happened before, mining bioses and miners being too lazy to remove them.
 
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Defective? Miners run their cards undevolted and optimized for power usage.
Some miners do that, others do not (many are very "casual" indeed often the technology illiterate ones who hear about 'mining' from friends, they'll keep on mining until after it's not profitable with a glazed look of "Wha? What does ROI mean?") Many also mod the BIOS which invalidates the warranty. And the buyer has zero way of telling any of this stuff (well looked after vs thrashed to oblivion or reflashed to original condition vs borked) apart until paying for it.

And the kind of mindset that's greedy enough to screw up a whole market for a few bucks is often one and the same that will have zero hesitation about ripping off the buyer (eg, seller videoing himself holding up the card & serial no so it can be seen clearly on the video, then placing the card in its original box and packaging it up with the address of the sender & recipient clearly visible, then turning the video off, unpackaging it, swaps the GPU out for a $2 item (eg, book) with the same weight in the original GPU box, repackages it as it was seen in the video, then sends that tracked delivery then counter-claims to the buyer's non-receipt / incorrect item sent dispute "it was the buyer who swapped it out because he wanted to keep both the card and money, look I have video evidence of me packaging the card with the same serial no, sent it tracked, etc" (literally happened to someone I know the other day to which Ebay actually ruled in favour of the scammer because of the video). The second hand PC component market is mostly good for older / low value components that no-one bothers ripping off. When it comes to relatively new widely sought after high value GPU's, it's a fraudsters paradise that I wouldn't touch with a 10ft barge pole...
 
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But it is unsigned where on nvidia it IS signed. This means you can likewise mod AMD firmware but not nvidia.
Are you sure about that? That might've been the case in the past, but I thought adhering to the UEFI Secure Boot specification required it. I haven't seen any modifications of the amdgpu firmware files either, but I admit to not looking very well for it.
 
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Are you sure about that? That might've been the case in the past, but I thought adhering to the UEFI Secure Boot specification required it. I haven't seen any modifications of the amdgpu firmware files either, but I admit to not looking very well for it.
I am certain. I bios modded my Navi and tools exist for the later gens.

Igorslab is the place for the tools.
 
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I am certain. I bios modded my Navi and tools exist for the later gens.

Igorslab is the place for the tools.
The BIOS is not the amdgpu firmware I meant, which is loaded by both the closed and open source Linux drivers (and Windows ones too). I'm pretty sure those are cryptographically verified by the card itself.

Also the BIOS is not a monolith and some parts of it can be customized (that's what AIB OEMs touch), and some are cryptographically protected and only AMD can release new versions.

Some miners do that, others do not (many are very "casual" indeed often the technology illiterate ones who hear about 'mining' from friends, they'll keep on mining until after it's not profitable with a glazed look of "Wha? What does ROI mean?")
True, but even then a mining card which has been constantly loaded has potentially less component damage than a gaming card in which components are constantly electrically and thermally cycled. My experience with home lab GPU compute servers and my own gaming GPUs seem to confirm this, but this is only anecdotal evidence at best.
Many also mod the BIOS which invalidates the warranty.
This depends on the local consumer protection laws, and in the EU is not true.
And the buyer has zero way of telling any of this stuff (well looked after vs thrashed to oblivion or reflashed to original condition vs borked) apart until paying for it.
And the kind of mindset that's greedy enough to screw up a whole market for a few bucks is often one and the same that will have zero hesitation about ripping off the buyer (eg, seller videoing himself holding up the card & serial no so it can be seen clearly on the video, then placing the card in its original box and packaging it up with the address of the sender & recipient clearly visible, then turning the video off, unpackaging it, swaps the GPU out for a $2 item (eg, book) with the same weight in the original GPU box, repackages it as it was seen in the video, then sends that tracked delivery then counter-claims to the buyer's non-receipt / incorrect item sent dispute "it was the buyer who swapped it out because he wanted to keep both the card and money, look I have video evidence of me packaging the card with the same serial no, sent it tracked, etc" (literally happened to someone I know the other day to which Ebay actually ruled in favour of the scammer because of the video). The second hand PC component market is mostly good for older / low value components that no-one bothers ripping off. When it comes to relatively new widely sought after high value GPU's, it's a fraudsters paradise that I wouldn't touch with a 10ft barge pole...
That's scummy behaviour that can be mitigated by always opening packages in the presence of the courier. With the shipping company statement on your side it's very hard to lose money to this type of scam. Again, consumer protection laws vary, but in many if not all EU countries warranty claims can be made from both the seller and original manufacturer.
 
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The BIOS is not the amdgpu firmware I meant
Those blobs might be different, but I am refering to the firmware programed into the card. And if the driver and that are open source/modifiable, what is preventing one from modifying that portion? As far as I can tell, nothing much.
 
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Those blobs might be different, but I am refering to the firmware programed into the card. And if the driver and that are open source/modifiable, what is preventing one from modifying that portion? As far as I can tell, nothing much.
That was my entire point: the driver is open and you can modify that, but the firmware it loads into the card can't be modified and is not open source. It's a binary blob provided by AMD, just like nVidia has their own firmware. Without the firmware the card won't start or will be only usable in very basic ways (like on Windows in VGA mode).
 
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but the firmware it loads into the card can't be modified and is not open source
I mean, the core on chip firmware is modifiable as I established.

So again, what enforces the signatures on these blobs? Nothing that can't be removed.

It's not open source no but crypto has the time and money to reverse engineer it.

I am a hobbyist bios modder, so pretty sure my perspective here is probably on target as I actually have the skills to begin attacking this, if anyone cared.
 
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It dose not matter what stance the producers have. Someone will find a workaround if any limitations are in place. The only solution is more factories that can produce more chips. But that might take years to invest, build and produce if and only if someone takes that decision.
Sad times for PC gamers around the world.
Hold on to what you have, cleaning, good cooling and undervolt them :D
 
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I mean, the core on chip firmware is modifiable as I established.

So again, what enforces the signatures on these blobs? Nothing that can't be removed.

It's not open source no but crypto has the time and money to reverse engineer it.

I am a hobbyist bios modder, so pretty sure my perspective here is probably on target as I actually have the skills to begin attacking this, if anyone cared.
There is a cryptographic public key etched in the silicon most likely, and AMD has the private part. AMD signs the firmware, chip verifies it on load. If the signature matches then the firmware is allowed to start.
This is the same mechanism that Intel (and AMD) use for CPU microcode updates.

If you can remove this or rather break the crypto scheme used then you'd be a billionaire if not trillionaire :)
 
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It dose not matter what stance the producers have. Someone will find a workaround if any limitations are in place. The only solution is more factories that can produce more chips. But that might take years to invest, build and produce if and only if someone takes that decision.
Sad times for PC gamers around the world.
Hold on to what you have, cleaning, good cooling and undervolt them :D
Honestly the best solution is what EVGA has done.

A truly reviewed and filtered queue system. Why something like this is not replicated everywhere speaks to true loyalties.

There is a cryptographic public key etched in the silicon most likely
I do not find this likely. We know this was true with Vega, and that they signed both ends of the firmware. If you stop signing one end, as we know they have (the one responsible for volts and clocks no less), it is indicative you have stopped all together.
 
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This depends on the local consumer protection laws, and in the EU is not true.
As generous as EU warranties are vs stupid things like not fixing a card if a sticker has fallen off a screw (because that by itself is not "proof of misuse"), they certainly cannot force a manufacturer to repair if the manufacturer can actually prove that it was broken via deliberately tampering (eg, flashing a non standard VBIOS then borking the card in the process of reverting it back that leaves part of the modded BIOS in EEPROM is about as obvious as it gets).

That's scummy behaviour that can be mitigated by always opening packages in the presence of the courier. With the shipping company statement on your side it's very hard to lose money to this type of scam. Again, consumer protection laws vary, but in many if not all EU countries warranty claims can be made from both the seller and original manufacturer.
You're assuming the courier understands exactly what he's looking at or hasn't been instructed by the courier company to not get involved in Ebay disputes. Or that you're at home when the courier delivers and someone else in the household just signs for it. And for delivery drivers unfamiliar with PC hardware, "I've no idea what that is, a bit for a robot maybe?" (in response to seeing a GTX 750 in a RTX 3090 box) doesn't insure against anything. The manufacturers can't do a thing vs not receiving correct item whilst returning it to Ebay sender only works if you complain you got the right item but it was faulty, not that you got an entirely different item. There is no real protection against the fraud I mentioned which is exactly why Ebay are siding with the scammers in such incidents.
 
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I do not find this likely. We know this was true with Vega, and that they signed both ends of the firmware. If you stop signing one end, as we know they have (the one responsible for volts and clocks no less), it is indicative you have stopped all together.
Not necessarily, as I wrote before the BIOS has different regions with some protected and some not. Critical parts like the Secure Boot UEFI GOP are most likely signed while parts modifiable by the AIB OEMs are not. I suspect that AMD has their own internal versions of tools like RBE aimed directly for consumption by OEMs. This makes sense because otherwise the chip would have to do one of those things:
1) only store the AMD public key and AMD would have to sign every single bios for every AIB card variant separately - that's a huge amount of useless work
2) contain a set of public keys for usage by OEMs - a waste of space, would have to contain every future OEM key at the time of chip's production
3) have some mechanism for one-time programming of the OEM key - difficult to do, risks bricking the chip on failed program, no real benefit so far since critical parts are already protected
This is speculation of course, but it mirrors how motherboard BIOSes are constructed with most using 3).

As generous as EU warranties are vs stupid things like not fixing a card if a sticker has fallen off a screw (because that by itself is not "proof of misuse"), they certainly cannot force a manufacturer to repair if the manufacturer can actually prove that it was broken via deliberately tampering (eg, flashing a non standard VBIOS then borking the card in the process of reverting it back that leaves part of the modded BIOS in EEPROM is about as obvious as it gets).
The manufacturer would have to prove that what the consumer did with software actually managed to damage the hardware and cause the issue. I've yet to hear of any manufacturer claiming this with computer hardware. This is purely economics - it'd take more time and thus money to prove the consumer wrong than to just replace/repair the part.
You're assuming the courier understands exactly what he's looking at or hasn't been instructed by the courier company to not get involved in Ebay disputes.
Not necessary, the courier can take photos to attach to the report, for example. The shipping company then vouches to Ebay that the photo content was what was in the box. It's standard procedure.
Or that you're at home when the courier delivers and someone else in the household just signs for it.
This is considered the fault of the receiving party. Tho not adhering to shipping company procedures, most couriers will allow you to call them in cases like those to "fix" a report even if he wasn't physically there. I know it's shady from the courier, but that's the reality of how they work. The safest route with hardware is to make sure you open the box with the courier present.
And for delivery drivers unfamiliar with PC hardware, "I've no idea what that is, a bit for a robot maybe?" (in response to seeing a GTX 750 in a RTX 3090 box) doesn't insure against anything. The manufacturers can't do a thing vs not receiving correct item whilst returning it to Ebay sender only works if you complain you got the right item but it was faulty, not that you got an entirely different item. There is no real protection against the fraud I mentioned which is exactly why Ebay are siding with the scammers in such incidents.
I'm pretty sure that if a seller did this multiple times they'd get banned/investigated by Ebay. There's always a risk when buying hardware on auction services.
 
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I'm fine with AMD's stance. Those claiming miners have drastically effected stock in the past prior to COVID are painting an exaggerated picture of the situation.
 
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This makes a lot of sense. Trying to blacklist applications would just be an infinite game of whack a mole. I'd rather they not spend their resources on that game.
 

bug

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I mean, the core on chip firmware is modifiable as I established.

So again, what enforces the signatures on these blobs? Nothing that can't be removed.

It's not open source no but crypto has the time and money to reverse engineer it.

I am a hobbyist bios modder, so pretty sure my perspective here is probably on target as I actually have the skills to begin attacking this, if anyone cared.
Idk, the whole Linux community couldn't get past Nvidia's signed firmware to reverse engineer clock controls (much less anything else). So while technically possible, I'm not sure it can be cracked in a timely fashion.
 
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Reading your post I am reminded of one of the more recent patterns in troll posts from Russia: "I don't like the Russians either, but <proceeds_to_explain_how_the_russians_are_right_and_the_rest_of_the_world_is_wrong>".

Please refrain from calling or inferring that others are trolls when you yourself aren't adding anything to the conversation other than those kind of implications.
 

bug

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Please refrain from calling or inferring that others are trolls when you yourself aren't adding anything to the conversation other than those kind of implications.
I just said I saw a pattern. You did the rest.
 
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which graphic cards ? There are none...
 
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Reading your post I am reminded of one of the more recent patterns in troll posts from Russia: "I don't like the Russians either, but <proceeds_to_explain_how_the_russians_are_right_and_the_rest_of_the_world_is_wrong>".
For 10+ years now I have used compute on GPU , lockdowns Do not help the consumer ever ,in any way IMHO, (all compute)it's gota stay, mining is not eternally profitable , something ends that and will again.
 
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I know amd gpu manufacturer has also set gpu on hold to free up space for microchip production to car manufacturers.
That's not accurate.
Foundry capacity is reserved up to several years in advance, sometimes before the factory is even built, and most often long before the various chip designers have decided what chips to use the capacity for.

The problem here is a combination of several factors, like not anticipating demand and lower wafer throughput than expected.

I'm sorry but I know second hand (a very trusted second hand) it's not true. The cards are being intercepted before getting to retail by mining groups.
I don't doubt there are cases of this happening, the interesting question is at what scale.

While mining is inherently pointless, the mining problem is very exaggerated. Graphics cards in general were in short supply going into this pandemic, then the pandemic created extreme demand, and then another mining bubble on top of that. The main reason why we are seeing a sever shortage now is the accumulated deficit over several months. Nvidia are making "regular" quantities of graphics cards, and a lot of customers are getting their cards, but the waiting lines are still seemingly growing due to the deficit.

When this mining bubble burst there's going to be thousands of used gpu on the market which are defective. Meanwhile, nobody is able to game with these new gpus since A hole scalpers are hoarding them. That won't be good for pc gaming in general.
The GPU market is in millions of units, thousands going to miners and scalpers isn't that much of a problem.

This makes a lot of sense. Trying to blacklist applications would just be an infinite game of whack a mole. I'd rather they not spend their resources on that game.
Well, obviously blocking "applications" is futile, just modifying a single byte of an application will get around checksums. Any "blocking" of mining workloads is one of two things; either it's just a BS claim done for PR, or it uses some kind of statistics to "guess" whether a workload is mining or not. The latter is a very dangerous alternative, and would result in many non-mining workloads getting reduced performance. Just imagine the lawsuits from customers who got their performance cut in half. This stuff is beyond stupid, and attempting to do this is probably the most stupid thing Nvidia has ever done. Those of you who can grasp the ramifications of this should be enraged.
 
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Not necessarily, as I wrote before the BIOS has different regions with some protected and some not.
The chip on the card is completely filled via the bios images we dump/modify. I don't know what you are getting at.

I'm fine with AMD's stance. Those claiming miners have drastically effected stock in the past prior to COVID are painting an exaggerated picture of the situation.
I'm of this opinion as well.

Idk, the whole Linux community couldn't get past Nvidia's signed firmware to reverse engineer clock controls (much less anything else). So while technically possible, I'm not sure it can be cracked in a timely fashion.
I'm talking AMD. No one is getting past NVIDIA's public-private key signed blobs if they cared to take a serious stance. The cryptography is solid and proven. AMD does not use these things except for a onec-upon-a-time oneoff on Vega, which is my entire point. Miners already regularly edit AMD firmware daily. This really isn't a debate: The ship sailed.
 
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