AMD Preparing to Drop 32-bit Support for Radeon Drivers?

yogurt_21 · Mar 30, 2016

? in what world does a 15 year old printer need a brand new computer to send jobs to it? If it ain't broke don't fix it. Good lord you love arguing.

newtekie1 · Mar 30, 2016

yogurt_21 said:
? in what world does a 15 year old printer need a brand new computer to send jobs to it? If it ain't broke don't fix it. Good lord you love arguing.

Except it did break, and I had to replace the computer. I'd love to live in this fantasy world you live in were computers never break. Actually, no I wouldn't, because then I'd be out of a job.

john_ · Mar 30, 2016

newtekie1 said:
That is a bit off base. Just because a company needs 32-bit Windows because they don't want to spend $500,000 replacing their printer, or $30,000 to replace their software, doesn't mean they don't have the money to replace computers.

What I see a little off base, is that in your posts, you treat a 0.1-0.2% market, like it is a 90% market. I mean, how many 32bit windows are out there? How many of those will go to a Zen APU? Are people protesting in the streets because they need Zen and Kaby Lake supporting 32bit Windows? I don't think so.

newtekie1 · Mar 30, 2016

john_ said:
What I see a little off base, is that in your posts, you treat a 0.1-0.2% market, like it is a 90% market. I mean, how many 32bit windows are out there? How many of those will go to a Zen APU? Are people protesting in the streets because they need Zen and Kaby Lake supporting 32bit Windows? I don't think so.

I'm not even close to implying that we are talking about 90% of the market. However, I believe it is a big enough part of the market to not just ignore. Like I said, they don't have to do 32-bit driver releases every single month or every time they do a 64-bit release. However, they should put the 32-bit support on the legacy support schedule at least. So there is a new driver every once in a while.

Also, it isn't 0.1-0.2% of the market. Go over to the Steam hardware survey. 32-bit OSes account for ~12% of the computers surveyed. And that is among gamers, who are less likely than the standard user to be using 32-bit. So I don't think the number of people using 32-bit is as small as you think.

john_ · Mar 30, 2016

newtekie1 said:
Also, it isn't 0.1-0.2% of the market. Go over to the Steam hardware survey. 32-bit OSes account for ~12% of the computers surveyed. And that is among gamers, who are less likely than the standard user to be using 32-bit. So I don't think the number of people using 32-bit is as small as you think.

That 12% is very close to the market share of Windows XP. I don't think this is exactly a coincidence, do you. So, are we talking about Windows XP here?

And how many of that 12% will go for a Zen APU and keep that 32bit windows version?

I mean, you just bought a new PC with a probably and hopefully not very cheap Zen APU, a new motherboard and DDR4 RAM. Windows key is universal for both 32bit and 64bit versions and Microsoft is giving the option to upgrade from a 32bit version of Windows, to 64bit Windows 10. Are you really staying with a 32bit operating system?

newtekie1 · Mar 30, 2016

john_ said:
That 12% is very close to the market share of Windows XP. I don't think this is exactly a coincidence, do you. So, are we talking about Windows XP here?

No we aren't talking about XP. XP only makes up 2%, the other 10% are Win7/8/10.

john_ said:
And how many of that 12% will go for a Zen APU and keep that 32bit windows version?

Who knows, but just dropping support for something that is still a good chunk of the user base isn't a good move, IMO. Not when you are struggling to keep customers as it is.

john_ said:
I mean, you just bought a new PC with a probably and hopefully not very cheap Zen APU, a new motherboard and DDR4 RAM. Windows key is universal for both 32bit and 64bit versions and Microsoft is giving the option to upgrade from a 32bit version of Windows, to 64bit Windows 10. Are you really staying with a 32bit operating system?

It largely depends on your needs and the person. You'd think no one would be using Windows 10 32-bit, yet Steam says there are(1.3% are using it actually). So your belief that it is only "0.1-0.2%" is way off. The user base of 32-bit is obviously more than most here seem to think.

Initialised · Mar 30, 2016

About time, Windows 10 should not exist as a 32 bit version.

Super XP · Mar 31, 2016

Who ever is in charge of making this decision is making a "Stupid" mistake. Dropping 32-Bit support is a bad move At The Moment.

There's a crap load of 32-Bit OS's out including Windows 10, 7, 8, Vista etc., the silly part of this is the very fact Windows 10 comes in 32-Bit. That is laughable at best, especially when you need MIN 8GB of Ram to run it properly.

Stefan Payne · Mar 31, 2016

john_ said:
Does anyone install a 32bit OS? I can see someone hoping for 32bit Windows XP support, but Vista 32bit? 7 32bit? 8.X 32bit? 10 32bit? Why???

True, especially since Windows 8 and especially 10 does not work on 32bit only CPUs.
You need a 64bit CPU to run this systems anyway (well Windows 8 and later), at least on a Desktop sockets because they require the NX bit to be present.

Thus you need a Pentium 4 with an E-Stepping Prescott core - wich also supports AMD64 in some LGA775 versions. I don't have any information on the S478 ones though...

So the 32bit versions of those are useless for desktop systems.
They are only needed for those shitty 32bit only ATOMs (up to 2000 series, the 3000 series is 64bit AFAIR).

Jermelescu · Mar 31, 2016

Super XP said:
Who ever is in charge of making this decision is making a "Stupid" mistake. Dropping 32-Bit support is a bad move At The Moment.

There's a crap load of 32-Bit OS's out including Windows 10, 7, 8, Vista etc., the silly part of this is the very fact Windows 10 comes in 32-Bit. That is laughable at best, especially when you need MIN 8GB of Ram to run it properly.

What?
Windows 10 ran pretty well on my 7y/o PC with 4 GB of RAM than ran better than Windows 8[.1] that ran better than Windows 7.

john_ · Mar 31, 2016

newtekie1 said:
So your belief that it is only "0.1-0.2%" is way off.

Yes I see streets flooded with angry AMD Zen APU buyers wanting to keep using their Windows 32bit OS. We can agree that we disagree here. Anyway we are talking about AMD, so let's make it a HUGE DEAL. If Intel tomorrow comes out and says "No 32bit support for Kaby Lake GPUs", let's call it "logic". I guess it is a case very similar to the fact that Microsoft's empire is trembling now that Vulkan came with Windows 7 support. Millions of gamers are refusing to go to Windows 10 and DirectX 12 thanks to Vulkan.

Mussels · Mar 31, 2016

Jermelescu said:
What?
Windows 10 ran pretty well on my 7y/o PC with 4 GB of RAM than ran better than Windows 8[.1] that ran better than Windows 7.

for a non gaming PC, 4GB is plenty. If you have limited things it does (not chrome with 10 tabs open lol) then even 2GB could scrape by.

eidairaman1 · Mar 31, 2016

http://support.amd.com/en-us/download/desktop?os=Windows+7+-+32
http://support.amd.com/en-us/download/desktop?os=Windows+10+-+32

it must be getting harder to code for the 32bit users. the Dual GPU boards I honestly feel might be held back in 32bit environments

newtekie1 · Mar 31, 2016

Stefan Payne said:
True, especially since Windows 8 and especially 10 does not work on 32bit only CPUs.
You need a 64bit CPU to run this systems anyway (well Windows 8 and later), at least on a Desktop sockets because they require the NX bit to be present.

Yeah, that isn't true at all. I have Windows 10 running on a 32-bit only CPU right now...

Mussels · Mar 31, 2016

newtekie1 said:
Yeah, that isn't true at all. I have Windows 10 running on a 32-bit only CPU right now...

what CPU? does it support the NX bit?

FordGT90Concept · Mar 31, 2016

64-bit + 4 GiB of RAM still gains access to the extra x64 registers that can improve performance. x64 applications also eliminate the 2-3% peanlty for running 32-bit Windows on 64-bit Windows. The only negatives to 64-bit is:
-no 16-bit application support on 64-bit Windows (processors support it but Microsoft does not)
-all drivers must be 64-bit (this is only an issue if the hardware was designed for Windows XP or older; Windows Vista and newer WHQL required 32-bit and 64-bit drivers)
-64-bit binaries tend to be about 20% larger than 32-bit binaries because of the increased address length.

Dinosaur printers, hardware, and software should be relegated to legacy hardware. For example, set up a printer server on the legacy machine so that 64-bit machines can print via a 32-bit server to the legacy printer. The bulk of machines everywhere should be migrating to 64-bit.

I think a lot of businesses/IT stick to 32-bit because they don't want to tackle the challenges (assuming there are any) associated with changing to 64-bit. You know, the whole "don't fix it if it isn't broke" montra. They won't switch until Microsoft gives them no choice.

Outside of businesses/IT as well as tablets, 32-bit is rare. Even the cheap $400 laptops these days ship with 64-bit.

Windows emulates NX bit in software (DEP) if the hardware doesn't support it.

eidairaman1 · Mar 31, 2016

FordGT90Concept said:
64-bit + 4 GiB of RAM still gains access to the extra x64 registers that can improve performance. x64 applications also eliminate the 2-3% peanlty for running 32-bit Windows on 64-bit Windows. The only negatives to 64-bit is:
-no 16-bit application support on 64-bit Windows (processors support it but Microsoft does not)
-all drivers must be 64-bit (this is only an issue if the hardware was designed for Windows XP or older; Windows Vista and newer WHQL required 32-bit and 64-bit drivers)
-64-bit binaries tend to be about 20% larger than 32-bit binaries because of the increased address length.

Dinosaur printers, hardware, and software should be relegated to legacy hardware. For example, set up a printer server on the legacy machine so that 64-bit machines can print via a 32-bit server to the legacy printer. The bulk of machines everywhere should be migrating to 64-bit.

I think a lot of businesses/IT stick to 32-bit because they don't want to tackle the challenges (assuming there are any) associated with changing to 64-bit. You know, the whole "don't fix it if it isn't broke" montra. They won't switch until Microsoft gives them no choice.

Outside of businesses/IT as well as tablets, 32-bit is rare. Even the cheap $400 laptops these days ship with 64-bit.

Windows emulates NX bit in software (DEP) if the hardware doesn't support it.

isn't emulation/ virtual conversion for the older 32 and 16 bit software?

Mussels · Mar 31, 2016

FordGT90Concept said:
64-bit + 4 GiB of RAM still gains access to the extra x64 registers that can improve performance. x64 applications also eliminate the 2-3% peanlty for running 32-bit Windows on 64-bit Windows. The only negatives to 64-bit is:
-no 16-bit application support on 64-bit Windows (processors support it but Microsoft does not)
-all drivers must be 64-bit (this is only an issue if the hardware was designed for Windows XP or older; Windows Vista and newer WHQL required 32-bit and 64-bit drivers)
-64-bit binaries tend to be about 20% larger than 32-bit binaries because of the increased address length.

Dinosaur printers, hardware, and software should be relegated to legacy hardware. For example, set up a printer server on the legacy machine so that 64-bit machines can print via a 32-bit server to the legacy printer. The bulk of machines everywhere should be migrating to 64-bit.

I think a lot of businesses/IT stick to 32-bit because they don't want to tackle the challenges (assuming there are any) associated with changing to 64-bit. You know, the whole "don't fix it if it isn't broke" montra. They won't switch until Microsoft gives them no choice.

Outside of businesses/IT as well as tablets, 32-bit is rare. Even the cheap $400 laptops these days ship with 64-bit.

Windows emulates NX bit in software (DEP) if the hardware doesn't support it.

dont forget that a virtual machine could run that print server, and similar hardware peripherals easily. You can have a windows 10 machine with an XP VM, running a dozen printers, lathes, security cameras, or whatever the fuck you need, on hardware far more powerful than XP would allow.

FordGT90Concept · Mar 31, 2016

eidairaman1 said:
isn't emulation/ virtual conversion for the older 32 and 16 bit software?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WoW64

It translates 32-bit calls to 64-bit on the fly. 16-bit calls aren't accepted.

It really doesn't behave any differently than how Windows 95 (32-bit) handled Windows 3.x (16-bit) executables.

eidairaman1 · Mar 31, 2016

http://www.dosbox.com/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/vdos/

Prima.Vera · Mar 31, 2016

Mussels said:
It's the right time to do it - GAMING graphics cards do not need to be supported on 32 bit OS's, since modern games either outright require 64 bit, or will crash/have issues on 32 bit (even the sims 3 runs into the 2GB memory limit of 32 bit windows without an LAA patch, so this is an OLD problem and not a new one)

At least 70% of the games on the market are using 32bit executables. That alone sais a lot.

))

FordGT90Concept · Mar 31, 2016

eidairaman1 said:
http://www.dosbox.com/
https://sourceforge.net/projects/vdos/

Yeah, they emulate/translate calls for specific hardware (e.g. 80286) to x86 standards working around the fact Windows itself dropped support.

Prima.Vera said:
At least 70% of the games on the market are using 32bit executables. That alone sais a lot. ))

More than that. You have to go back to the 1990s to find 16-bit games. Games were among the first to switch to 32-bit because they really needed access to that extra memory.

You'd be surprised how many games came out recently run on 64-bit given the opportunity.

Mussels · Mar 31, 2016

Prima.Vera said:
At least 70% of the games on the market are using 32bit executables. That alone sais a lot. ))

If you focus on games, those games still benefit from a 64 bit OS. Ford himself wrote a little program to force LAA (large address aware) to allow them to use a full 4GB of ram, vs the 2GB they commonly were/are limited to.
Even to this day, if a game does not use that flag they can't use 4GB of ram - and if they do, they'll crash under XP/32 bit OS's if they pass 2GB so its a proper catch 22.

Companies are beginning the death of 32 bit OS's, which is not the same thing AT ALL as killing 32 bit games, software or programs.

yogurt_21 · Mar 31, 2016

newtekie1 said:
Except it did break, and I had to replace the computer. I'd love to live in this fantasy world you live in were computers never break. Actually, no I wouldn't, because then I'd be out of a job.

you're the one living in la la land. If it's broken now replace it now. Zen isn't even out yet. unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful.

newtekie1 · Mar 31, 2016

yogurt_21 said:
you're the one living in la la land. If it's broken now replace it now. Zen isn't even out yet. unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful.

Yeah, because there is no chance the some one else might have a computer break on them a year from now. Mine broke now, and I replaced it now. Are you really trying to argue that there is no chance a machine will break after Zen is released?

Mussels said:
what CPU? does it support the NX bit?

Atom N270

FordGT90Concept said:
For example, set up a printer server on the legacy machine so that 64-bit machines can print via a 32-bit server to the legacy printer. The bulk of machines everywhere should be migrating to 64-bit.

I've never successfully set up a print server for a printer that only had a 32-bit driver and been able to print with 64-bit machines. Is there some trick to this?

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AMD Preparing to Drop 32-bit Support for Radeon Drivers?

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