AMD "Renoir" 4700U Beats i7-1065G7 "Ice Lake" at PCMark 10, 18% Faster than 3700U

[notb]

I’m especially curious about the mobile design. Since Zen2 went to chiplets, how is this going to be designed? Is the Vega bolted to the IO die, or will this go back to a monolith die? Since IF is an idle energy hog, I wonder if they are working around it somehow.

Why would this use chiplet design at all? There's just one CCX. And space is precious.

 

[Darmok N Jalad]

Why would this use chiplet design at all? There's just one CCX. And space is precious.

Same reason that the desktop chips do. The chiplet lacks IO and memory control, so adding those into a single die means a new design.

 

[SL2]

I’m especially curious about the mobile design. Since Zen2 went to chiplets, how is this going to be designed? Is the Vega bolted to the IO die, or will this go back to a monolith die?

One thing is for sure, it won't have the chips placed like Matisse. Imagine trying to keep this cool with one or two heatpipes in an ultrabook.

My bet is that since it will max out at 8C, it will have the two chips placed in line, a bit like Intels mobile CPU's.

 

[HD64G]

On the contrary: I'm perfectly fine with AMD winning. My only problem is that AMD is still not making CPUs that cater towards my needs. So maybe you're benefiting from their latest technological resurgence, but I don't.

You, on the other hand, can't stand that someone has needs other than yours. So often when I write a post that points some issue in Zen or even just shows my opinion, you activate and attack me. It's like if prefering Intel isn't allowed in your world.

For a long time AMD CPUs were years behind Intel's. You supported them anyway. Have I ever attacked you because of that? Maybe someone else did? Because you behave like people beaten during childhood.

Yes, I prefer Intel's business model and products in general. I prefer their support, documentation, drivers and libraries.
Until another company offers everything I expect, I'll support the one that does - even during this difficult period when the competition got an upper hand in performance. Do you have a problem with that?

Stubborness needs some excuses like the ones you find constantly when priven totally wrong. And when I preferred AMD it was because of their vfm of their products (never had much money to throw on any pc part but always wanted the best for my money), something they already did in the CPU market. Even now with Zen2 CPUs walking all over Intel ones, they are still better in vfm. Your ridiculous excuses (didn't read any comment on the security side of Intel CPUs being totally defected in their arch side) for keep preferring Intel CPUs show much about having secret incentives for doing so. And for the psycology lessons, I don't need them, maybe you need a therapy for your big ego, since you are constantly defeated on the argument side and you keep finding excuses without any logical base.

 

[yeeeeman]

A few comments:
- mobile is much harder because of the lower power budget; if AMD has great efficiency on desktop it doesn't mean they can underclock the CPU and get the highest efficiency; things like power circuitry design, idle/sleep speed and implementation, firmware, cooling, uncore power consumption, everything matters; Intel does have a huge advantage on this and I would be extremely surprised if 4700U will have better battery life with same battery size in the same chassis compared to 1065G7.
- regarding iGPU being a monster, no it won't be; it won't be enough for quality gaming; 3780U in surface pro 3 has Vega 11. 4700U has Vega 13, so 2 extra CUs. Nothing major and depending on the memory controller efficiency, it should bring a small increase in GPU horsepower but nothing major;
- regarding CPU performance, while Ice Lake cannot boost to very high frequencies (3.9Ghz max, 4.1Ghz in very short bursts), it does have a definite IPC advantage (10% better IPC compared to Zen 2); this means that 4700U needs to boost at least to 4.3-4.4Ghz to get to parity, but we all know from desktop that 7nm TSMC needs lots of voltage to reach high frequencies and that is very bad for efficiency;
- all in all, I think they stand a very good chance of getting higher up in the mobile space and Intel needs to be on guard and get TigerLake out as soon as possible if they wanna still retain market leadership in mobile. From what we can see in leaks (10% more IPC compared to Ice Lake, 1.5-2X IGP improvement), they stand a very good chance with it.

 

[Cheeseball]

Finally an Ultrabook that can game without buying a dedicated gpu, this opens up gaming laptops under 700

Way better than any of Intel's offerings, at the moment (unless they pull a 128 EU with dedicated RAM from somewhere, lol). This can probably take on the MX250 and GTX 1050 non-Ti at most. The GTX 1650 Max-Q would eat the Vega 13 alive though.

 

[Zach_01]

Why would this use chiplet design at all? There's just one CCX. And space is precious.

CPU package space or wafer space?
I understand that space(and cooling) within a laptop is constrained and limited but the physical size of the CPU package is given (by pinout) and for sure can contain 3 chiplets (CCD+CCD+IO) or (CCD+GPU+IO).
Does anyone wonder why this 4700U is a 8c/8t and not a 4c/8t? It has (IMO) direct relation to the 8core (CCD) chiplet design which is universal to all market segments. AMD probably cant "afford" a design change. The chiplet unified achitecture works more than well for any platform and its the key feature that ZEN2 was build upon. Mobile ZEN2 is "delayed" over six months after initial ZEN2 launch I believe due to binning process and TSMCs 7nm delivery capabilities. Still the EPYC chiplets is the high priority for AMD.

Yes, I prefer Intel's business model and products in general. I prefer their support, documentation, drivers and libraries.
Until another company offers everything I expect, I'll support the one that does - even during this difficult period when the competition got an upper hand in performance. Do you have a problem with that?

Cant argue with personal needs... It is what it is. But I get the feeling that you often generalize you personal needs to general needs of the majority of the endusers and for the time being AMD has the better product in almost every case scenario.
So, calling a product pointless before we actually see it in the market and how it does against competition (performance and consumption)... can at least raise some questions and doubts about your personal opinion and why its expressed like yours does.

 

[notb]

CPU package space or wafer space?

Package. Why would I care about wafers?

Does anyone wonder why this 4700U is a 8c/8t and not a 4c/8t?

Because "AMD first with 8 cores for ultrabooks!"

It has (IMO) direct relation to the 8core (CCD) chiplet design which is universal to all market segments.

Including Zen2-based Ryzen 5 which are 6C/12T.
But Intel already makes a 6C/12T 25W SoC, so AMD went for 8C/8T.

And, of course, 8 cores would be better than 6 cores with SMT... if 25W were enough to provide decent performance.

Cant argue with personal needs... It is what it is. But I get the feeling that you often generalize you personal needs to general needs of the majority of the endusers

Sure, because I'm the only one generalizing my personal needs to the population.

and for the time being AMD has the better product in almost every case scenario.

Oh, please don't go there. No more "every case scenario".
Because at some point I'll ask you about 3 such scenarios and you may say: gaming, rendering and running file compression.

Zen2-based Ryzen are good processors - I'm sure most of us agree on that.
Good products? That's not so obvious. It depends what you expect. And you just said I'm generalizing.

 

[AnarchoPrimitiv]

On the contrary: I'm perfectly fine with AMD winning. My only problem is that AMD is still not making CPUs that cater towards my needs. So maybe you're benefiting from their latest technological resurgence, but I don't.

You, on the other hand, can't stand that someone has needs other than yours. So often when I write a post that points some issue in Zen or even just shows my opinion, you activate and attack me. It's like if prefering Intel isn't allowed in your world.

For a long time AMD CPUs were years behind Intel's. You supported them anyway. Have I ever attacked you because of that? Maybe someone else did? Because you behave like people beaten during childhood.

Yes, I prefer Intel's business model and products in general. I prefer their support, documentation, drivers and libraries.
Until another company offers everything I expect, I'll support the one that does - even during this difficult period when the competition got an upper hand in performance. Do you have a problem with that?

You "support intel's business model"? Just to be clear, which parts do you "support"? The being found guilty in several international courts of law for bribing OEMs to NOT use the competition? The disingenuous marketing that's a hair's width away from being straight lies? The product markups and profit margins that are practically illegal usury? The era of stagnation they ushered in for the better part of decade that hurt all consumers (of which I'm sure you'll blame AMD for that...you'll blame the victim of Intel's illegal and underhanded practices)?

And just to preempt any possible shortcuts to thinking, I'd like to remind everyone that there is NEVER a circumstance in which the actions of another person, entity or company can be used as an excuse to justify the actions of the company in question...in other words, it doesn't matter if if AMD or another company has murdered someone, it's not a justification for Intel's actions, so don't even try that misdirection. There is no court of law where any defendant on trial for murder can say to the judge: "Your honor, I know I murdered that person, but there are many other people committing murder too, so I should be found innocent." I really can't stand whenever someone points out the underhanded behavior of Intel or Nvidia or any other company and their apologist fanboys attempt to say "...but, but....AMD did so and so..." because it's completely irrelevant and never a justification.

FYI: I'm not an AMD fan, I've just come to dislike Intel and Nvidia (and those are two very different things) and the unrelenting hive-mind of their fanboy armies, so don't even try to shoehorn me into any false binaries that try and label me or anyone else as an "AMD fanboy" just because we dislike Intel and/or Nvidia.

 

[Zach_01]

Package. Why would I care about wafers?

No end user does, but forgetting/ignoring and/or neglecting the fundamental structure and architecture of ZEN2 can lead to false statements. You keep thinking Intel wise and how they segment and construct their CPUs.

Including Zen2-based Ryzen 5 which are 6C/12T.
But Intel already makes a 6C/12T 25W SoC, so AMD went for 8C/8T.
And, of course, 8 cores would be better than 6 cores with SMT... if 25W were enough to provide decent performance.

The 4700U is probably the flagship CPU for the mobile market utilizing a full chiplet/CCD... We will eventually see 4c and 6c parts too out of the 8core chiplet.
I’m not sure what is your point here...

Sure, because I'm the only one generalizing my personal needs to the population.

And by this you think that it’s ok to do it too? ...which is something I can accept.
What I cannot accept is that right now you’re trying to make points and statements with frown upon practices and trying to making it legit.

Oh, please don't go there. No more "every case scenario".
Because at some point I'll ask you about 3 such scenarios and you may say: gaming, rendering and running file compression.

So, the word “almost” has lost all of its meaning all of sudden... right!

Zen2-based Ryzen are good processors - I'm sure most of us agree on that.
Good products? That's not so obvious. It depends what you expect. And you just said I'm generalizing.

1 out of 2 about this...
1. You didnt understand my point and what I was talking about generalize...
2. You like to play with words with someone that is struggling to put down his thoughts using a foreign language...

which one is it?

 

[waltc]

I would think that PCIe4 would make a substantial difference for these--that's where the higher bandwidth of the PCIe bus should shine, imo.

 

[1d10t]

Why would this CPU need its own driver?
Vega is very mature by now.
Also, AMD GPUs tends to do better in synthetic tests.

For its iGPU [duh], unless you didn't notice these test consist 2D manipulating and 3D playback
Vega is already mature, so it doesn't need any driver? Try that with generic driver Intel UHD

Well if you say nothing sort of a feat 8 core 2Ghz base 4.2Ghz turbo beats both 4 core 8 threads with higher 2.3Ghz base 4.9Ghz turbo and 4 core 8 thread with dedicated GTX 1650 Max-Q if you missed it, I'm curious what type of notebook you currently use

 

[efikkan]

Well if you say nothing sort of a feat 8 core 2Ghz base 4.2Ghz turbo beats both 4 core 8 threads with higher 2.3Ghz base 4.9Ghz turbo and 4 core 8 thread with dedicated GTX 1650 Max-Q if you missed it, I'm curious what type of notebook you currently use

i7-10510U is a Comet Lake CPU at 1.8 GHz base, 4.9 GHz max boost. When TDP is configured to 25W instead of 15W, base clock increases to 2.3 GHz.

i7-1065G7 is an Ice Lake CPU with 4 cores at a base clock of 1.3 GHz, max boost of 3.9 GHz and all core boost of 3.5 GHz, but this is just burst speed, I believe sustained boost is ~2 GHz. When TDP is configured to 25W, base clock increases to 1.5 GHz.
It's quite impressive that i7-1065G7 does so well with fewer cores and lower (rated) clocks than 4700U. But as I've said, these are rated clock speeds, not actual clock speeds. Also these are synthetic benchmarks.

 

[notb]

I would think that PCIe4 would make a substantial difference for these--that's where the higher bandwidth of the PCIe bus should shine, imo.

Tiger Lake (Intel's mainstream mobile platform for 2020) will have PCIe 4.0 as well.
So while this will make a difference in some use cases, it won't be a differentiating factor between the companies.

The best part is that Tiger Lake should boost PCIe 4.0 adoption by component/accessory makers...

 

[Xajel]

It's showing 8 real cores isn't it, with SMT disabled?
View attachment 140148View attachment 140149

Nothing solid yet, but it's rumoured that the U series (15W) will get 8C8T. While the higher end H series (35~45W) parts will get 8C16T.


But nothing is confirmed, all are just speculations. It might be duo to the fact AMD can have two options to stay within 15W TDP, it's either 4C8T or 8C8T. Doing the 8C16T route will consume too much power they will have to get the clocks very low to compensate...

 

[notb]

No end user does, but forgetting/ignoring and/or neglecting the fundamental structure and architecture of ZEN2 can lead to false statements.

Focusing too much on architecture and semicinductor manufacturing can lead to false statements as well.

I prefer a more general approach, because it makes sense. Because we're talking about products, not how they're made. And products are defined by performance, features, power consumption, size, price etc. They are not defined by architecture, IPC or node size.

People on this forum tend to focus way to much on how CPUs are made and it likely affects their decisions (as consumers, maybe as investors).

The obvious example (on the "investor" side) is the ongoing discussion about AMD's profitability.
Most people on this forum focus on 7nm, chiplets, being fabless, having unified architecture with little waste and so on. It's all amazing, right? Especially in comparison with Intel's large, monolithic dies.

But others say that AMD does not control manufacturing, that they're competing for 7nm supply, that they're fully dependent on a single provider that will exploit this situation.
I can't tell you how many times I've been attacked here for this kind of "heresy".

And then the financial statements arrive and guess who was right?

You keep thinking Intel wise and how they segment and construct their CPUs.

I'm not sure what this sentence means.
I don't think "Intel-wise". I think "me-wise". If you get an impression that it sounds Intel-ish, that's because it likely does. As I said: I prefer their model and I feel more connected to how they position and market their products. I won't deny that.

The 4700U is probably the flagship CPU for the mobile market utilizing a full chiplet/CCD... We will eventually see 4c and 6c parts too out of the 8core chiplet.
I’m not sure what is your point here...

The point is: you've earlier said
Does anyone wonder why this 4700U is a 8c/8t and not a 4c/8t? It has (IMO) direct relation to the 8core (CCD) chiplet design which is universal to all market segments. AMD probably cant "afford" a design change.
which sounded like if you though it must be 8 cores because the die design is made for that.

Obviously, AMD could launch a whole lineup of mobile SoCs based on Zen2 die and none of them would go above 4-6 cores.

So, the word “almost” has lost all of its meaning all of sudden... right!

I only believe in how "almost" is defined in math, which is the opposite of how you seem to do it.

 

[Adam Krazispeed]

On the contrary: I'm perfectly fine with AMD winning. My only problem is that AMD is still not making CPUs that cater towards my needs. So maybe you're benefiting from their latest technological resurgence, but I don't.

You, on the other hand, can't stand that someone has needs other than yours. So often when I write a post that points some issue in Zen or even just shows my opinion, you activate and attack me. It's like if prefering Intel isn't allowed in your world.

For a long time AMD CPUs were years behind Intel's. You supported them anyway. Have I ever attacked you because of that? Maybe someone else did? Because you behave like people beaten during childhood.

Yes, I prefer Intel's business model and products in general. I prefer their support, documentation, drivers and libraries.
Until another company offers everything I expect, I'll support the one that does - even during this difficult period when the competition got an upper hand in performance. Do you have a problem with that?

i beg to differ on INTEL being more "SUPERIOR to AMD., last 10 years, YEA, BECAUSE WHEN AMD WAS IN TECHNOLOGICAL LEAD, (10+ years ago) INTEL HAD TO CHEAT, WITH THEIR X86 COMPILER SHENANIGANS, Bribing DELL and OTHER OEMS to NOT SELL PCs WITH AMD CPUS, um What else is their Intel DID.. OH.... another thing....just plain anti-competitive practices and marketing sound about like what Intel are doing again... they never learn do they... NO the dont... INTEL CPUS ARE SO INSECURE RIGHT NOW ITS FUCKING PATHETIC HOW INTEL THINKS THEY WILL COME BACK FROM THESE ZOMBILOAD AND SHIT SECURITY ISSUES, SPECTER, MELTDOWN, and they just KEEP COMING TOO...

INTEL HAD TO CHEAT, WITH THEIR X86 COMPILER SHENANIGANS,

INTEL HAD TO CHEAT, WITH THEIR X86 COMPILER SHENANIGANS,

this IS STILL GOING ON TO THIS DAY... I CAN PROVE IT... i have INTELS x86 Compiler, if i run it on my Ryzen 7 3700X (which has Superior Single thread compared to latest I7/ i9 intel in a friends pc.. the cpu, magically on intels is always faster with "INTELS" x86 Compiler.. seems fishy to me.. you smell the fish too huh, i guess not, but i do, i seen it, i smell it and i hear it too!!!

case closed

"Yes, I prefer Intel's business model and products in general "

seriously , their business model is ANTI-COMPETITIVE in nature... id never support them for that and i never will

 

[Kapone33]

This is good, I dream of the day I go into Canada Computers and even 1/3 of the laptops sold are AMD based. This is getting closer (hopefully it does materialize into real products) . With a Vega GPU, if they are anything close to the 2200G they will smoke on a 720P laptop, even some 1080P laptops will be happy.

 

[Tartaros]

Finally an Ultrabook that can game without buying a dedicated gpu, this opens up gaming laptops under 700

You can buy ultrabooks with mx250 for about 800, so not exactly groundbreaking. Also, don't expect lower end vega igpu to be better than the mx250. Also also, amd has a problem catching up with apu drivers.

I would go to next gen intel or mx250 if I want a cheap ultrabook with some capacity for gaming, amd still got to do their homework in this department. Amd laptops with dedicated gpu are great, ultrabooks look quite bad.

 

[ValenOne]

You can buy ultrabooks with mx250 for about 800, so not exactly groundbreaking. Also, don't expect lower end vega igpu to be better than the mx250. Also also, amd has a problem catching up with apu drivers.

I would go to next gen intel or mx250 if I want a cheap ultrabook with some capacity for gaming, amd still got to do their homework in this department. Amd laptops with dedicated gpu are great, ultrabooks look quite bad.

No, mobile Ryzen APU's Vega drivers are up to date with desktop counterpart.

 

[Master Tom]

AMD "Renoir" is faster than "Ice Lake". That are good news.