AMD Ryzen 9 7950X Geekbenched, Crushes i9-12900K, in the League of the i9-13900K

[AM4isGOD]

What about "Intel platform cost" requiring a new socket every two generations? Im sure consumers LOVE that.

Same old AMD users statement, repeated since Ryzen first came out, how long ago?

If you buy a new generation CPU, it should have a new board, instead of AMD with their new CPU in a 5yr old board. New generation usually comes with updated hardware like USB etc etc, which you miss out on by sticking a new gen CPU in a old board. Imo it's a skinflint argument. If you have the cash to buy a high end CPU like 5950x/13900k why scrimp on the board.

 

[Tomorrow]

Same old AMD users statement, repeated since Ryzen first came out, how long ago?

If you buy a new generation CPU, it should have a new board, instead of AMD with their new CPU in a 5yr old board. New generation usually comes with updated hardware like USB etc etc, which you miss out on by sticking a new gen CPU in a old board. Imo it's a skinflint argument. If you have the cash to buy a high end CPU like 5950x/13900k why scrimp on the board.

5 years ago in case you're keeping track. Intel has had how many socket changes since then? 4. Nearly 1 new socket per year.

Why should a new generation CPU NEED a new socket every time? Most of the performance gains come from the CPU not the socket.

New board includes faster USB - yes but it's useless if peripherals are lagging behind. There are only a handful of USB 20Gbps peripherals. Mostly DAS devices that actually benefit from faster speeds. Your keyboard or mouse is not gonna go faster on a new board with newer USB standard. And god knows how long it will take until we get USB4 peripherals. PCIe versions are even more dubious. A few percentage points of difference with GPU's that no one will notice or faster M.2 that is faster only in sequential speeds.

So i doubt people are missing out by not upgrading their board with a new CPU every time.
And most people are not buying 7950X/13900K. Most people are buying R5/i5 and having a long lasting board goes a long way. This saved cash can then be put into a faster GPU or a better monitor that deliver actual noticeable gains in real world usage.

I mean someone who bought a B350 board 5 years ago can upgrade to 5800X3D and get 12900K (DDR4) performance with their existing board and RAM.
I would not call than a skinflint argument by any means.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

you show me a chart that confirms exactly what i told you

Why would he try to prove your points when you are wrong, surely he or she sorry would be providing proof for they're point not yours, plus he knows he's right, we all do and mark papermaster described why, the design is different with different cache sizes, and additional features like Avx512.

Proven by AMD with clock locked parity tests at 4Ghz ?!.

@AM4isGOD miss out on usb?! Hahaaaaa for what usb is largely irrelevant at this point, your perspective isn't everyone's.

 

[fevgatos]

Not in ST is isn't.
View attachment 260144

That review uses 4800c40 ddr5, so yeah...put some proper ddr5 and the score goes over 2050

 

[Oberon]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1565022883230932992

This looks very much like a stock result.

 

[fevgatos]

I mean someone who bought a B350 board 5 years ago can upgrade to 5800X3D and get 12900K (DDR4) performance with their existing board and RAM.
I would not call than a skinflint argument by any means.

I was that someone with a b350 board 5 years ago. Ended up selling it cause you know...AMD flip floped 15 times about whether or not it will support zen 3. Heck, amd even flip flopped regarding the b450 / x470 boards supporting zen 3. So yeah, not that clear cut. If I have to go on crusades on the internet to FORCE amd to support my motherboard, and even then it takes them 2 years to finally support now outdated CPUS. Yeah no thanks.

Intel supports their new CPUS day one. I can literally buy a raptor lake the day it is released and it will work on my z690. It took AMD 720 days to support Zen 3 on their x370 / b450. That's 72.000% slower. So yeah, id rather buy a new motherboard then having to wait for 2 years

 

[Oberon]

That review uses 4800c40 ddr5, so yeah...put some proper ddr5 and the score goes over 2050

And they tested with DDR4-3200 CL22. If memory impacted the ST score at all, you'd see the difference. You don't see it because it doesn't. The workloads in GB5 are not memory-bandwidth limited for ST.

 

[fevgatos]

And they tested with DDR4-3200 CL22. If memory impacted the ST score at all, you'd see the difference. You don't see it because it doesn't. The workloads in GB5 are not memory-bandwidth limited for ST.

Maybe they are latency sensitive, dunno, but im 100% positive memory impacts gb5. Too bored to test it right now, but there is a reason im getting a score of over 2k at stock (2043 if i remember correctly).

 

[Oberon]

Maybe they are latency sensitive, dunno, but im 100% positive memory impacts gb5. Too bored to test it right now, but there is a reason im getting a score of over 2k at stock (2043 if i remember correctly).

They are a little latency sensitive, which is why the DDR5 ST result is lower in AT's testing. Memory latency is worse with DDR5 than DDR4 in general, especially since you're not going to be running Gear 1 with DDR5.

 

[Valantar]

Intel supports their new CPUS day one. I can literally buy a raptor lake the day it is released and it will work on my z690. It took AMD 720 days to support Zen 3 on their x370 / b450. That's 72.000% slower. So yeah, id rather buy a new motherboard then having to wait for 2 years

Uhm... do you see the major flaw in your comparison here? Raptor Lake working on Z690 is an aberration from the norm for Intel - most of the time, they never enable support for new gen CPUs on older boards. Never. That's, what, infinite percent slower? I'd rather have flexibility then be abandoned. Also, it's not like you couldn't just buy an X570 board day one if you were unhappy with support on older boards, so that makes your conclusion even between the two I guess? What you're saying here literally does not make logical sense, as you're wildly inconsistent in the "standards" (yes, that word needs scare quotes in this situation) you're setting for the various actors being compared.

 

[Tomorrow]

It took AMD 720 days to support Zen 3 on their x370 / b450.

How is that number calculated?

 

[fevgatos]

Uhm... do you see the major flaw in your comparison here? Raptor Lake working on Z690 is an aberration from the norm for Intel - most of the time, they never enable support for new gen CPUs on older boards. Never. That's, what, infinite percent slower? I'd rather have flexibility then be abandoned. Also, it's not like you couldn't just buy an X570 board day one if you were unhappy with support on older boards, so that makes your conclusion even between the two I guess? What you're saying here literally does not make logical sense, as you're wildly inconsistent in the "standards" (yes, that word needs scare quotes in this situation) you're setting for the various actors being compared.

What do you mean it's an aberration. It's the norm, they support 2 generations on every motherboard.

Sure I could buy an x570 and then basically end up exactly where I would with an Intel system, but then I would feel like an A class **diot when AMD decides to flip flop again and support the motherboard I just sold. Think x470 for example, AMD announced it won't be getting any zen 3 support, poor user sells his system and then 3 weeks later (after an internet crusade going on forums and such) amd decided to backtrack.

That's why I prefer Intel's method. You know what it will support and when (and the when is usually day one). No buts ifs and internet crusades to get support. Makes planning what to sell and when to sell it when you want to upgrade a lot easier.

How is that number calculated?

If you want to be pedantic about it, sure it wasn't 720 days, it was 560. Zen 3 was officially released in the start of November 2020, my b350 got official support in middle of May. Point still stands, 1 >>> 560 funnily enough

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

What do you mean it's an aberration. It's the norm, they support 2 generations on every motherboard.

Sure I could buy an x570 and then basically end up exactly where I would with an Intel system, but then I would feel like an A class **diot when AMD decides to flip flop again and support the motherboard I just sold. Think x470 for example, AMD announced it won't be getting any zen 3 support, poor user sells his system and then 3 weeks later (after an internet crusade going on forums and such) amd decided to backtrack.

That's why I prefer Intel's method. You know what it will support and when (and the when is usually day one). No buts ifs and internet crusades to get support. Makes planning what to sell and when to sell it when you want to upgrade a lot easier.


If you want to be pedantic about it, sure it wasn't 720 days, it was 560. Zen 3 was officially released in the start of November 2020, my b350 got official support in middle of May. Point still stands, 1 >>> 560 funnily enough

What like Avx 512 on a 12900k for example or Intels security management units, reliability defined, not.

 

[Tomorrow]

What like Avx 512 on a 12900k for example or Intels security management units, reliability defined, not.

Dont forget retroactively gimping any B series OC bypass by releasing new microcode that is mandatory.
It took years of bitching an moaning and AMD competition for Intel to finally allow B series memory OC.

 

[Valantar]

What do you mean it's an aberration. It's the norm, they support 2 generations on every motherboard.

Uh ... no. They support 2 generations on every second generation of motherboard. Except when they don't, like with the 300-series, which only supported one. Or the Haswell generation of chipsets, which saw two generations of chipset across a single CPU arch + its refresh (and Broadwell, which had next to no consumer launch, and thus hardly matters). The point being: the consistency that you're attributing to Intel doesn't exist.

Sure I could buy an x570 and then basically end up exactly where I would with an Intel system, but then I would feel like an A class **diot when AMD decides to flip flop again and support the motherboard I just sold. Think x470 for example, AMD announced it won't be getting any zen 3 support, poor user sells his system and then 3 weeks later (after an internet crusade going on forums and such) amd decided to backtrack.

That's why I prefer Intel's method. You know what it will support and when (and the when is usually day one). No buts ifs and internet crusades to get support. Makes planning what to sell and when to sell it when you want to upgrade a lot easier.

I mean, there's a lot that can be said about your reasoning, but at least you're good at maintaining a solid double standard. Whether AMD delivers broader support or matches Intel exactly, you find a way to argue that Intel is inherently superior. It's almost as if there's some kind of bias involved here ...

Honestly though, if you're so damn impatient that you can't hold off on an upgrade for three weeks, then you've got bigger problems than socket compatibility. Heck, most people agree that upgrading every generation is dumb in the first place - performance gains aren't typically noticeable generation to generation on the same tier of product, so all you're doing is making your new hardware seem less fast through the change being so minor, while throwing money out the window. That sounds like some rather unhealthy consumption habits to me.

It's true that AMD wavered in how far backwards to support new CPU architectures - with good reason, as the BIOS updates required for this also required removing support for older generations of CPU to fit the new code. I don't see taking the time to do this right as a problem - but they should absolutely have been more forthright about this, and consumer pressure shoudln't have been necessary to expand compatibility.

If you want to be pedantic about it, sure it wasn't 720 days, it was 560. Zen 3 was officially released in the start of November 2020, my b350 got official support in middle of May. Point still stands, 1 >>> 560 funnily enough

And, once again, no 2017 Intel motherboard has support for any 2020 Intel CPU. So, once again, AMD was literally infinite % faster, according to your own logic.

 

[R0H1T]

Dont forget retroactively gimping any B series OC bypass by releasing new microcode that is mandatory.

Well that's not exactly true, they've done this from every gen since z77 (z87?) till even Skylake. I had an H97 motherboard with a nice OC & they effed it, along with the Windows installation, about 1 year after launch! If you count the number of anti consumer things Intel have done continue to do it's probably longer than the list of Sapphire Rapid Bugs

 

[ARF]

That's not true, you can check the best tuned results on either set of memory & DDR5 will come easily on top, also if it were a statistical error then why get DDR5 support anyway? Are Intel engineers stupid to waste that extra die space?

Nope you're clearly wrong on that one, yes it is application depend but in some applications it can be a massive gap! On avg it should be high to mid single digits, talking about best DDR5 vs best DDR4 results.

Marketing, you have to use the 5 figure, you know 5G, DDR5, PCIe 5, everything 5

 

[Outis]

With amd having ddr5 problems and fabric clock once again going to restrict ram overclocking and the cpu overclocking in all core ill be liberal and say they may hit 5 and golden samples maybe 5.1 5.2 and doubt even see north of 6000 mgz for ram just like 4000 on ddr4 and most could not even did that and were restricted to 3800mhz where is alder lake cpus can use so hynix 6400mhz+ stock kits and oc to 7000 or more depending on the imc 13th will have stronger memory controllers and larger cache not to mention the i7 13700 k that was overclocked to 6.1 and not even using extreme cooling ie custom loop or ln2 a 13 900k or ks when they drop with the z790 boards that are going to let you overclock even higher and further with what features implementing well see how this caim holds up oh forgot yeah amd also finally olis getting there own xmp equivalent in their motherboards.. And 14th gen which comes out bex4 year with a completely newer and better architecture and going to be using new node I really dont think amds going to come out on top but we'll see I suppose

 

[Tomorrow]

With amd having ddr5 problems and fabric clock once again going to restrict ram overclocking and the cpu overclocking in all core ill be liberal and say they may hit 5 and golden samples maybe 5.1 5.2 and doubt even see north of 6000 mgz for ram just like 4000 on ddr4 and most could not even did that and were restricted to 3800mhz where is alder lake cpus can use so hynix 6400mhz+ stock kits and oc to 7000 or more depending on the imc 13th will have stronger memory controllers and larger cache not to mention the i7 13700 k that was overclocked to 6.1 and not even using extreme cooling ie custom loop or ln2 a 13 900k or ks when they drop with the z790 boards that are going to let you overclock even higher and further with what features implementing well see how this caim holds up oh forgot yeah amd also finally olis getting there own xmp equivalent in their motherboards.. And 14th gen which comes out bex4 year with a completely newer and better architecture and going to be using new node I really dont think amds going to come out on top but we'll see I suppose

Thank you for this incomprehensible wall of text. I doubt right now running DDR5-6000 will be restrictive. The fastest kits are 6600. This is not DDR4 situation where 3800 was the sweet spot while 5000+ kits existed. And by the time we get 8000+ kits we will likely have Zen 5 that will hopefully increase the sweetspot again. No doubt Intel has historically more OC headroom (we dont know 13th gen limits yet) so potentially more fun for those whol like to tinker, benchmark etc.

 

[Valantar]

With amd having ddr5 problems

... where, exactly, are you getting this from? What "ddr5 problems"?

and fabric clock once again going to restrict ram overclocking

Again: source, plz?

and the cpu overclocking in all core

What? There is literally no correlation between fabric clock and CPU core clocks, so fabric clocks will never restrict all-core (or single core) CPU OC. This is just nonsense.

ill be liberal and say they may hit 5 and golden samples maybe 5.1 5.2 and doubt even see north of 6000 mgz for ram just like 4000 on ddr4 and most could not even did that and were restricted to 3800mhz where is alder lake cpus can use so hynix 6400mhz+ stock kits and oc to 7000 or more depending on the imc 13th will have stronger memory controllers and larger cache not to mention the i7 13700 k that was overclocked to 6.1 and not even using extreme cooling ie custom loop or ln2 a 13 900k or ks when they drop with the z790 boards that are going to let you overclock even higher and further with what features implementing well see how this caim holds up oh forgot yeah amd also finally olis getting there own xmp equivalent in their motherboards.. And 14th gen which comes out bex4 year with a completely newer and better architecture and going to be using new node I really dont think amds going to come out on top but we'll see I suppose

Also, generally, AMD seems to quite vehemently disagree with you:

AMD Confirms DDR5-6000 as "Sweetspot" Memory OC Frequency for Ryzen 7000

AMD in its Discord AMA confirmed DDR5-6000 to be the "sweetspot" memory overclock for its upcoming Ryzen 7000 "Zen 4" processors. A sweetspot frequency in AMD jargon is an inflection of performance, stability, cost, and ease. For the very first Ryzen, this was DDR4-3200. For Ryzen 2000, it was...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[InVasMani]

Honestly I'd consider even getting a single DIMM of DDR5 and using the savings toward a higher end MB or CPU. It could possibly even offset the cost of X3D cache and probably almost balance out against SKU's w/o stacked cache once those chips launch.

 

[Arco]

Personally, I'm going for two dimms with hopefully a good x670 for my first upcoming build.

 

[CrAsHnBuRnXp]

And then AMD 7000 X3D gets released in Q1 23, so this is all "literally pointless" for some time, right?

That doesnt matter now. What matters now is AMD 7k series and Intel 13th gen since they are releasing so close to one another.

 

[InVasMani]

That doesnt matter now. What matters now is AMD 7k series and Intel 13th gen since they are releasing so close to one another.

You could say the same of Raptor Lake and Zen 4 X3D actually. That's still a close launch window. Hell there have been countless cases of people waiting longer for a new Nvidia or AMD product cycle for GPU's across the years. In fact a lot of Intel fans waited like nearly 2 years for Intel to respond to the 5950x. Sounds like a lot you can wait for Intel, but not for AMD team blue falafel's rhetoric.

 

[CrAsHnBuRnXp]

You could say the same of Raptor Lake and Zen 4 X3D actually. That's still a close launch window. Hell there have been countless cases of people waiting longer for a new Nvidia or AMD product cycle for GPU's across the years. In fact a lot of Intel fans waited like nearly 2 years for Intel to respond to the 5950x. Sounds like a lot you can wait for Intel, but not for AMD team blue falafel's rhetoric.

Disagree. At least for me. When AMD releases the X3D next year, then sure, it could outperform Intel if intel looks to be the better buy compared to zen4 in the coming weeks. Zen4 is and should be, a direct competitor to Raptor Lake. But if the X3D isnt releasing in the time frame as 7K series or Raptor Lake and i was looking to buy now, the X3D isnt even in my field of view. I wouldnt be waiting 2 years. Id get whoever is the better buy at the time of my purchase.