AMD "Vermeer" Zen 3 Processors Branded Under Ryzen 5000 Series?

[dragontamer5788]

Having both ddr4 and ddr5 adds to much complexity for the iod and is waste of silicon. it drives up the price of Iod.

AMD could easily make two IO-dies, one for DDR4 and a second for DDR5. Then use chiplet-magic to sell their processors combined with either die (saving on manufacturing costs and providing more flexibility on the supply side).

The only reason not to do this is that it'd be difficult to market correctly. Which mobos would work for DDR4, which ones for DDR5? Etc. etc. It'd be easier for consumers if all CPUs and Motherboards were under the same specs. Nonetheless, maybe an OEM-only version (for LPDRR4 laptops or some niche purpose) could be released. AMD has chiplets after all, I expect them to leverage the technology to their benefit.

 

[Dredi]

No way there will be odd number of cores. Makes no sense for anyone including AMD.

I expect single-CCX models as:
4 cores without SMT with 16MB cache,
4 cores with SMT with 16MB cache,
6 cores without SMT with 32MB cache,
6 cores with SMT with 32MB cache,
8 cores with SMT with 32MB cache.

Potential double-CCX models:
10 cores with SMT with 48MB cache,
12 cores with SMT with 64MB cache,
16 cores without SMT with 48MB cache (highest clocked part),
16 cores with SMT with 64MB cache.

Why wouldn’t they sell every working core that comes out of the factory, like they have done thus far?
5 or 5+5 core products make no sense, they are gimped by artificially removing 28% of the performance the chips had when they left the factory.
Do you think that AMD has such a lead now that they can afford to artificially limit the performance of new products by that much?

Also, there will be literally zero chiplets coming out of the factory with just 4 working cores. It makes more sense to shift the current 4 core parts to be 6 core instead (they have as much shit broken inside anyway, and the low number of so broken chips meant that the 3300x & 3100 products could be launched only so late and with super limited stock).

I think you're right but AMD will want to protect the higher margin high-performance products by creating a meaningful performance delta.

They might do that, just like how intel does it, by doing artificial segmentation. I hope they won’t start doing it now just as they are starting to see real progress in market share aquisition.
The real battle for market dominance is not fought with high tier products, but the 3600-class products, where they now could add a free 17% boost to core count. They can still produce meaningful deltas to higher tier products with frequency binning and how they select chips into two CCD products.

 

[SKD007]

I have a feeling they are going to hold back 5950x so they can push it out as 5nm... that will be awesome

 

[InVasMani]

AMD could easily make two IO-dies, one for DDR4 and a second for DDR5. Then use chiplet-magic to sell their processors combined with either die (saving on manufacturing costs and providing more flexibility on the supply side).

The only reason not to do this is that it'd be difficult to market correctly. Which mobos would work for DDR4, which ones for DDR5? Etc. etc. It'd be easier for consumers if all CPUs and Motherboards were under the same specs. Nonetheless, maybe an OEM-only version (for LPDRR4 laptops or some niche purpose) could be released. AMD has chiplets after all, I expect them to leverage the technology to their benefit.

Not that hard for marketing DDR4 continues using AM4 DDR5 uses AM5. Label the AM4 DDR4 Zen 4 and AM5 DDR5 Zen 5.

 

[Rob94hawk]

Really hard to say, but moving to DDR5 will probably entail a new socket and I imagine a new I/O die as well. Moving to 5nm on the other hand shouldn't require DDR5 so in that sense AMD has two possibilities. The chips and the chipset I feel could support DDR4 and DDR5 with different I/O die's and with different sockets. There is a minor possibility that AMD could ease the transition from DDR4 to DDR5 by allow two platforms to cater to both for Zen4 at 5nm.

In a lot of ways that a more ideal option than hybrid motherboards that support both memory types, but a good stop gap remedy for those that can't just outright afford to by new memory that tends to be expensive and not all that mature early in it's life cycle. It even opens a bit of a avenue for a upgrade later to a new socket with more mature DDR5 down the road with the same CPU and possibly a new chipset as well since DDR5's life cycle should span quite a awhile major memory architecture changes tends to progress at a slower more drawn out pace.

I think it would be more ideal to have more transitional and phased upgrades like that anyway where you don't necessarily just have that more massive upfront cost of buying everything much more periodically. Buying into increased improvements a bit a time is a easier pill to swallow to the end user. So certainly something that needs to be weighed. I think I'd be more inclined to buy into Threadripper's DDR4 EOL chip down the road rather than moving to DDR5 to be honest. At least based on my current situation. I just don't plan to replace my DDR4 memory in a real hurry quite so soon. I'm not sure what will happen with Zen4, but I guess with ThreadRipper I'm somewhat covered in either case. That said I would enjoy seeing a 5nm DDR4 Ryzen CPU personally or scaled back core count ThreadRipper DDR4 octa-channel chip with higher frequency boost would be interesting.

I was curious if DDR5 was even worth it. Then I read this simple article. In a nutshell, it allows cpu's with multi cores to take advantage of the higher bandwidth.

DDR5 RAM Release Date & Price: Everything we currently know about DDR5 RAM

It is finally here, DDR5 RAM was released on the 4th of November 2021 alongside Intel 12th gen CPUs and Z690 motherboards. It's been around 4 years since

www.wepc.com

 

[R0H1T]

The only reason not to do this is that it'd be difficult to market correctly. Which mobos would work for DDR4, which ones for DDR5?

Hey remember the plebs who could botch their MB with a failed BIOS update or how the x570, B450 firmware updates were a one way street? How do you suppose them plebs will do putting in DDR4 sticks in DDR5 slots or the other way round

What you say sounds rather complicated for the avg Joe. Heck I still see (negative) reviews from people buying 550W or 650W PSUs saying they lack an additional 4 pin connector for a CPU, just because their motherboard has Gaming in the title

 

[InVasMani]

I was curious if DDR5 was even worth it. Then I read this simple article. In a nutshell, it allows cpu's with multi cores to take advantage of the higher bandwidth.

DDR5 RAM Release Date & Price: Everything we currently know about DDR5 RAM

It is finally here, DDR5 RAM was released on the 4th of November 2021 alongside Intel 12th gen CPUs and Z690 motherboards. It's been around 4 years since

www.wepc.com

DDR5 is similar to quad channel DDR4 performance from what I recall, but a bit more complex than that in various area's. I mean for me personally a DDR4 octa channel threadripper chip that was about 8c or 12c would be a very interesting chip especially if the boost scaling was better and more in line with Intel's 14nm++++++ scaling I'm not expecting 5GHz+ out of ryzen threadripper, but if it inched closer to it on a threadripper platform with a more modest 8c/12c design paired to octa-channel bandwidth that would really appealing especially given the platform has a lot more PCIe lanes as well.

 

[Dyatlov A]

Also, there will be literally zero chiplets coming out of the factory with just 4 working cores. It makes more sense to shift the current 4 core parts to be 6 core instead (they have as much shit broken inside anyway, and the low number of so broken chips meant that the 3300x & 3100 products could be launched only so late and with super limited stock).

3300X is still unavailable to buy .
by the way Ryzen 3 3300X with one CCX design is awesome , it is really adds to performance. And hoping from these new Vermeer CPUs 5GHz will be manageable with overclocking.

 

[Camm]

IMO, I think the big reason for the jump is that APU parts will become part of the product stack this time around (and with a much shorter time to market) with all 5xxx parts being Zen3 rather than the 'odd' APU's being a gen behind core wise.

I think we also might see a simplification of the product stack as well., with 6, 8, 12, 16 of straight CPU (non APU) parts. With the move to a single 8 core complex, I doubt they'd be able to harvest enough dies without fusing at least two cores to make quad core parts, and probably would want to avoid extra tooling costs to have a different wafer.

The only thing I'm not sure about is if we'll see 7 and 14 core parts, I doubt we'll see 10, as that'd imply needing to harvest dies with 3 cores dead which doesn't sound all that likely, but dies with 1 core dead are a possibility. Whether they just fuse off a second core on these to make them 6/12 is the question however.

 

[Dredi]

Whether they just fuse off a second core on these to make them 6/12 is the question however.

Yeah. It would be silly to gimp functional cores and thus yield performance lead to intel.

 

[mechtech]

So Cezanne and Zen3 will all be 5000?

I suspect they'll f*** it up again; They can't help scalp some extra hype and sales by re-releasing an existing generation with a +1000 name to make it look like new tech when Cezanne or its successor comes out.

Should name it 6k series so it matches the radeon

 

[HugsNotDrugs]

Why wouldn’t they sell every working core that comes out of the factory, like they have done thus far?
5 or 5+5 core products make no sense, they are gimped by artificially removing 28% of the performance the chips had when they left the factory.
Do you think that AMD has such a lead now that they can afford to artificially limit the performance of new products by that much?

Also, there will be literally zero chiplets coming out of the factory with just 4 working cores. It makes more sense to shift the current 4 core parts to be 6 core instead (they have as much shit broken inside anyway, and the low number of so broken chips meant that the 3300x & 3100 products could be launched only so late and with super limited stock).


They might do that, just like how intel does it, by doing artificial segmentation. I hope they won’t start doing it now just as they are starting to see real progress in market share aquisition.
The real battle for market dominance is not fought with high tier products, but the 3600-class products, where they now could add a free 17% boost to core count. They can still produce meaningful deltas to higher tier products with frequency binning and how they select chips into two CCD products.

I doubt AMD makes much from their 3600, but I'm sure they do make money on the 3700/3800 as it's the same cost to produce at a much higher price.

 

[DemonicRyzen666]

Having both ddr4 and ddr5 adds to much complexity for the iod and is waste of silicon. it drives up the price of Iod.

I may be entirely wrong about this
have a close look at the video posted

AMD could easily make two IO-dies, one for DDR4 and a second for DDR5. Then use chiplet-magic to sell their processors combined with either die (saving on manufacturing costs and providing more flexibility on the supply side).

The only reason not to do this is that it'd be difficult to market correctly. Which mobos would work for DDR4, which ones for DDR5? Etc. etc. It'd be easier for consumers if all CPUs and Motherboards were under the same specs. Nonetheless, maybe an OEM-only version (for LPDRR4 laptops or some niche purpose) could be released. AMD has chiplets after all, I expect them to leverage the technology to their benefit.

The Slide he shows at 10:46 shows Zen3 cores with DDR5 and PCie5..... not Zen 4

it also shows 64 x 4 for the same Zen 3 cores.... which is even more weird.

But it does makes more sense in naming the 5000 series in the end. If it already has all this inside of it for a board upgrade to move from AM4 to AM5.

 

[HugsNotDrugs]

I may be entirely wrong about this
have a close look at the video posted

The Slide he shows at 10:46 shows Zen3 cores with DDR5 and PCie5..... not Zen 4

it also shows 64 x 4 for the same Zen 3 cores.... which is even more weird.

But it does makes more sense in naming the 5000 series in the end. If it already has all this inside of it for a board upgrade to move from AM4 to AM5.

I suspect the chiplet design provides much greater flexibility in IO development.

Remember Intel HEDT? Intel would often develop bleeding edge new IO tech paired with well-known last-gen architectures and release as HEDT processors. Last gen architectures were used because trying to pair new IO with a new architecture on a monolithic CPU is fraught with potential delays and hiccups. Using an existing architecture allowed that team to focus solely on the IO and readily prototype revisions.

Development of the HEDT CPUs was important for Intel not because of the sales volumes or margins but because it provided Intel an opportunity to develop first revision IO for release to consumers. Intel would always then refine that IO to pair with next gen mainstream processors. In other words, developing brand new CPUs cores and new IO concurrently on a monolithic core is incredibly difficult, even for semiconductor giants. Also in other words, second revisions are often much better than first revisions when it comes to new tech.

The chiplet design changes all of that. IO can be developed almost entirely separate from the CPU cores.

If both DDR4 and DDR5 cannot easily be supported by the same IO then I suspect AMD could easily offer DDR4 and DDR5 versions of the same CPU using only a different IO.

Fascinating times.