• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

Apple Mac Studio Taken Apart, Reveals Giant M1 Ultra SoC

Joined
Apr 17, 2021
Messages
564 (0.43/day)
System Name Jedi Survivor Gaming PC
Processor AMD Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard Asus TUF B650M Plus Wifi
Cooling ThermalRight CPU Cooler
Memory G.Skill 32GB DDR5-5600 CL28
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 3080 10GB
Storage 2TB Samsung 990 Pro SSD
Display(s) MSI 32" 4K OLED 240hz Monitor
Case Asus Prime AP201
Power Supply FSP 1000W Platinum PSU
Mouse Logitech G403
Keyboard Asus Mechanical Keyboard
well, you cant increase the memory so I'm guessing that $4k price tag is for a minimal amount of it, 16g?
No, you can just look it up on Apple.com, right? 64GB, which is pretty generous for Apple. That's where a lot of the $4000 price comes from. Apple charges $1600 for that ram usually.

What is the TDP? Also per core performance seems inferior as it outnumbers the intel and AMD chips on core coubt?
60W for the CPU. 100W for the GPU. But currently it rarely gets close to that. Per core performance is high in IPC, but clock speeds are only 3Ghz. 16+4, P+E. Obviously beats any other 3 Ghz consumer CPU. Too bad. That's the only other thing I wanted from the Studio, 4 Ghz clocks, not 3.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
22,449 (6.03/day)
Location
The Washing Machine
Processor 7800X3D
Motherboard MSI MAG Mortar b650m wifi
Cooling Thermalright Peerless Assassin
Memory 32GB Corsair Vengeance 30CL6000
Video Card(s) ASRock RX7900XT Phantom Gaming
Storage Lexar NM790 4TB + Samsung 850 EVO 1TB + Samsung 980 1TB + Crucial BX100 250GB
Display(s) Gigabyte G34QWC (3440x1440)
Case Lian Li A3 mATX White
Audio Device(s) Harman Kardon AVR137 + 2.1
Power Supply EVGA Supernova G2 750W
Mouse Steelseries Aerox 5
Keyboard Lenovo Thinkpad Trackpoint II
Software W11 IoT Enterprise LTSC
Benchmark Scores Over 9000
That's the problem right? Modified phone processor catching up to a desktop-first chip, backed by the biggest mountain of cash in the corporate world. Intel is the underdog here, their market cap is 1/10th the size of Apple's.

Catching up to a desktop-first chip in a tiny range of applications tailor made to suit Apple's hardware, yes.

Boy where have we seen this before... ARM? :) Its yet another iteration but I don't see Apple's path forward as something we can use outside of their ecosystem. The package size has no business in any normal competitive market, Apple is the outlier and you can have only one of those. They carved out their own segment, and there is only a place for one Apple in that basket.

Its nice to see what they're doing though, power to them. But I don't view it as a threat to any other market really. Maybe we will move to bigger package in due time. Maybe not. Time will tell. But its not disruptive in any way of other progress like the push on chiplets and/or more specialized cores/big little concepts.

The only real move forward if we zoom out is that device capabilities are moving closer together regardless of device form factors. Phones and small devices become more powerful, all devices can utilize cloud processing power, etc. But the overall demands don't really change, even with the introduction of cloud to local productivity. The real question that will eventually surface (and already is, if you are aware of it) is how much control you want to have over your hardware/software solutions, how much control you need, and what price you're paying for it. Apple isn't in the best position in that sense for significant user/target markets, no matter what chips they choose to build.

The differentiation isn't really in hardware anymore but in policy.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 17, 2021
Messages
564 (0.43/day)
System Name Jedi Survivor Gaming PC
Processor AMD Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard Asus TUF B650M Plus Wifi
Cooling ThermalRight CPU Cooler
Memory G.Skill 32GB DDR5-5600 CL28
Video Card(s) MSI RTX 3080 10GB
Storage 2TB Samsung 990 Pro SSD
Display(s) MSI 32" 4K OLED 240hz Monitor
Case Asus Prime AP201
Power Supply FSP 1000W Platinum PSU
Mouse Logitech G403
Keyboard Asus Mechanical Keyboard
Catching up to a desktop-first chip in a tiny range of applications tailor made to suit Apple's hardware, yes.

Boy where have we seen this before... ARM? :) Its yet another iteration but I don't see Apple's path forward as something we can use outside of their ecosystem. The package size has no business in any normal competitive market, Apple is the outlier and you can have only one of those. They carved out their own segment, and there is only a place for one Apple in that basket.

Its nice to see what they're doing though, power to them. But I don't view it as a threat to any other market really. Maybe we will move to bigger package in due time. Maybe not. Time will tell. But its not disruptive in any way of other progress like the push on chiplets and/or more specialized cores/big little concepts.

The only real move forward if we zoom out is that device capabilities are moving closer together regardless of device form factors. Phones and small devices become more powerful, all devices can utilize cloud processing power, etc. But the overall demands don't really change, even with the introduction of cloud to local productivity. The real question that will eventually surface (and already is, if you are aware of it) is how much control you want to have over your hardware/software solutions, how much control you need, and what price you're paying for it. Apple isn't in the best position in that sense for significant user/target markets, no matter what chips they choose to build.

The differentiation isn't really in hardware anymore but in policy.
Apple's total control makes most of their products not useful. I don't disagree. I think a lot of my feelings are based on the Apple I knew growing up. The first colour computer I had, the first CD, the first amazing games and software. Now we get locked down products. Can't even display the FPS, that's too much too ask. Control control control. Not good. I can still enjoy the ARM and chip development though. Hardware is neat regardless of the software. Believe me I spend most of my time hoping for Apple, then being disappointed, then not buying. Potential is there, but the attitudes of Apple's leadership won't allow a truly great product. Linux has a lot of freedom also, been disappointed there. I turned in to a Windows lover. Yuck ;)
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
22,449 (6.03/day)
Location
The Washing Machine
Processor 7800X3D
Motherboard MSI MAG Mortar b650m wifi
Cooling Thermalright Peerless Assassin
Memory 32GB Corsair Vengeance 30CL6000
Video Card(s) ASRock RX7900XT Phantom Gaming
Storage Lexar NM790 4TB + Samsung 850 EVO 1TB + Samsung 980 1TB + Crucial BX100 250GB
Display(s) Gigabyte G34QWC (3440x1440)
Case Lian Li A3 mATX White
Audio Device(s) Harman Kardon AVR137 + 2.1
Power Supply EVGA Supernova G2 750W
Mouse Steelseries Aerox 5
Keyboard Lenovo Thinkpad Trackpoint II
Software W11 IoT Enterprise LTSC
Benchmark Scores Over 9000
Apple's total control makes most of their products not useful. I don't disagree. I think a lot of my feelings are based on the Apple I knew growing up. The first colour computer I had, the first CD, the first amazing games and software. Now we get locked down products. Can't even display the FPS, that's too much too ask. Control control control. Not good. I can still enjoy the ARM and chip development though. Hardware is neat regardless of the software. Believe me I spend most of my time hoping for Apple, then being disappointed, then not buying. Potential is there, but the attitudes of Apple's leadership won't allow a truly great product. Linux has a lot of freedom also, been disappointed there. I turned in to a Windows lover. Yuck ;)

Yeah I think that's the big conclusion when we see all these tech companies and the reason MS shouldn't lock Windows down too much. They have a very VERY strong proposition in the market and if they keep Windows versatile, legacy capable and accessible all at the same time, while improving usability for non-advanced users, they can keep it that way. But the moves of applications to the Windows Store, for example, counter that idea completely. Its the same thing as their Metro UI brainfart with Windows 8, the same as their bundled Kinect with an Xbox that had to be always-online... The moment they try to play by a new rulebook, the userbase punishes it super hard.

I like that consumer power at work, a lot. I hope MS will keep listening, because its for their own good...

Linux is a real contender sooner rather than later, too, because a big part of Windows in consumer markets right now is gaming. And that really is the three flavors we have:
- open, subject to change you can choose to implement, full adaptability, low user friendly score (Linux)
- not open, subject to change you must implement, high adaptability, high user friendly score (Windows)
- walled garden, subject to change you won't like and will cost you money you don't prefer spending, ultra high user friendly score, very limited adaptability (anything Apple)
 

Fourstaff

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
10,077 (1.84/day)
Location
Home
System Name Orange! // ItchyHands
Processor 3570K // 10400F
Motherboard ASRock z77 Extreme4 // TUF Gaming B460M-Plus
Cooling Stock // Stock
Memory 2x4Gb 1600Mhz CL9 Corsair XMS3 // 2x8Gb 3200 Mhz XPG D41
Video Card(s) Sapphire Nitro+ RX 570 // Asus TUF RTX 2070
Storage Samsung 840 250Gb // SX8200 480GB
Display(s) LG 22EA53VQ // Philips 275M QHD
Case NZXT Phantom 410 Black/Orange // Tecware Forge M
Power Supply Corsair CXM500w // CM MWE 600w
Catching up to a desktop-first chip in a tiny range of applications tailor made to suit Apple's hardware, yes.

Boy where have we seen this before... ARM? :) Its yet another iteration but I don't see Apple's path forward as something we can use outside of their ecosystem. The package size has no business in any normal competitive market, Apple is the outlier and you can have only one of those. They carved out their own segment, and there is only a place for one Apple in that basket.

Its nice to see what they're doing though, power to them. But I don't view it as a threat to any other market really. Maybe we will move to bigger package in due time. Maybe not. Time will tell. But its not disruptive in any way of other progress like the push on chiplets and/or more specialized cores/big little concepts.

The only real move forward if we zoom out is that device capabilities are moving closer together regardless of device form factors. Phones and small devices become more powerful, all devices can utilize cloud processing power, etc. But the overall demands don't really change, even with the introduction of cloud to local productivity. The real question that will eventually surface (and already is, if you are aware of it) is how much control you want to have over your hardware/software solutions, how much control you need, and what price you're paying for it. Apple isn't in the best position in that sense for significant user/target markets, no matter what chips they choose to build.

The differentiation isn't really in hardware anymore but in policy.
I think you are underestimating the threat Apple poses. One and a half year ago M1 did not exist, now the latest iteration is competitive against a "tiny range of applications". The number will not stop at "tiny".

With regards to control, PS/Xbox/Switch are some of the most controlled devices out there and yet every one of them is successful. Most people don't care too much about control, they care about experience and walled gardens is the easiest way to manage experience.
 

iO

Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
529 (0.12/day)
Location
Germany
Processor R7 5700x
Motherboard MSI B450i Gaming
Cooling Accelero Mono CPU Edition
Memory 16 GB VLP
Video Card(s) AMD RX 6700 XT Accelero Mono
Storage P34A80 512GB
Display(s) LG 27UM67 UHD
Case none
Power Supply Fractal Ion 650 SFX
Someone edited it for reference
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
22,449 (6.03/day)
Location
The Washing Machine
Processor 7800X3D
Motherboard MSI MAG Mortar b650m wifi
Cooling Thermalright Peerless Assassin
Memory 32GB Corsair Vengeance 30CL6000
Video Card(s) ASRock RX7900XT Phantom Gaming
Storage Lexar NM790 4TB + Samsung 850 EVO 1TB + Samsung 980 1TB + Crucial BX100 250GB
Display(s) Gigabyte G34QWC (3440x1440)
Case Lian Li A3 mATX White
Audio Device(s) Harman Kardon AVR137 + 2.1
Power Supply EVGA Supernova G2 750W
Mouse Steelseries Aerox 5
Keyboard Lenovo Thinkpad Trackpoint II
Software W11 IoT Enterprise LTSC
Benchmark Scores Over 9000
I think you are underestimating the threat Apple poses. One and a half year ago M1 did not exist, now the latest iteration is competitive against a "tiny range of applications". The number will not stop at "tiny".

With regards to control, PS/Xbox/Switch are some of the most controlled devices out there and yet every one of them is successful. Most people don't care too much about control, they care about experience and walled gardens is the easiest way to manage experience.

Sure, but PC's always catered to a very diverse audience and they still do, and in that each OS has its own pros and cons. Gaming is a great example: the market is massive and massively diversified. Consoles can grow, the market could support the addition of Xbox and Switch with overlapping target audiences, and yet still, the PC gaming market is a steady growth market within a declining PC market. It shows that the desire for control and moddability, the 'open garden' so to speak, is here to stay. The market is healthy.

People started using tablets and smartphones and you might say 'they can game on it too!' and yet, still, PC gaming shows growth YoY. That's a lot bigger than we are trained to think based on the marketing and 'smartphone centric' world we appear to have, where apparently there is only a demand for the easier and more service-oriented society. This is not true at all and we have yet to see it stick.

Look at the rapidly changing sentiment wrt cloud gaming and on-demand. As the number of (potential) subscriptions grows, so too does the resistance. And these services are all still pushing hard on introduction price structures, freebies, 1 dollar subs and big marketing budgets.
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Messages
851 (0.61/day)
Catching up to a desktop-first chip in a tiny range of applications tailor made to suit Apple's hardware, yes.

Boy where have we seen this before... ARM? :) Its yet another iteration but I don't see Apple's path forward as something we can use outside of their ecosystem. The package size has no business in any normal competitive market, Apple is the outlier and you can have only one of those. They carved out their own segment, and there is only a place for one Apple in that basket.

Its nice to see what they're doing though, power to them. But I don't view it as a threat to any other market really. Maybe we will move to bigger package in due time. Maybe not. Time will tell. But its not disruptive in any way of other progress like the push on chiplets and/or more specialized cores/big little concepts.

The only real move forward if we zoom out is that device capabilities are moving closer together regardless of device form factors. Phones and small devices become more powerful, all devices can utilize cloud processing power, etc. But the overall demands don't really change, even with the introduction of cloud to local productivity. The real question that will eventually surface (and already is, if you are aware of it) is how much control you want to have over your hardware/software solutions, how much control you need, and what price you're paying for it. Apple isn't in the best position in that sense for significant user/target markets, no matter what chips they choose to build.

The differentiation isn't really in hardware anymore but in policy.
I think they deserve more credit and attention that. Its not just first party applications where this chip looks good, DaVinci Resolve and Adobe Premiere (and others) is also running native on Apple silicon and its getting awful close to the performance of the Xeon powered Mac Pro. Granted the Xeon they are using isn't the best of example of x86 silicon but you compare the results from those applications running on Windows on Intel 12th gen and Zen 3 and the M1 hardware still looks pretty impressive no matter how you look at it.

The package of the APU is unconventional but if that level of integration is key to the performance they are getting then either AMD and Intel will have to do something similar or someone else will eventually do it for them. I mean if you use any of those performant applications (video editing, 3D rendering) and if Apple starts walking away from the competition you will switch so in that sense they are absolutely a threat. Users of professional software packages are not allegiant to platforms and/or hardware fanboi/gurls.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
22,449 (6.03/day)
Location
The Washing Machine
Processor 7800X3D
Motherboard MSI MAG Mortar b650m wifi
Cooling Thermalright Peerless Assassin
Memory 32GB Corsair Vengeance 30CL6000
Video Card(s) ASRock RX7900XT Phantom Gaming
Storage Lexar NM790 4TB + Samsung 850 EVO 1TB + Samsung 980 1TB + Crucial BX100 250GB
Display(s) Gigabyte G34QWC (3440x1440)
Case Lian Li A3 mATX White
Audio Device(s) Harman Kardon AVR137 + 2.1
Power Supply EVGA Supernova G2 750W
Mouse Steelseries Aerox 5
Keyboard Lenovo Thinkpad Trackpoint II
Software W11 IoT Enterprise LTSC
Benchmark Scores Over 9000
I think they deserve more credit and attention that. Its not just first party applications where this chip looks good, DaVinci Resolve and Adobe Premiere (and others) is also running native on Apple silicon and its getting awful close to the performance of the Xeon powered Mac Pro. Granted the Xeon they are using isn't the best of example of x86 silicon but you compare the results from those applications running on Windows on Intel 12th gen and Zen 3 and the M1 hardware still looks pretty impressive no matter how you look at it.

The package of the APU is unconventional but if that level of integration is key to the performance they are getting then either AMD and Intel will have to do something similar or someone else will eventually do it for them. I mean if you use any of those performant applications (video editing, 3D rendering) and if Apple starts walking away from the competition you will switch so in that sense they are absolutely a threat. Users of professional software packages are not allegiant to platforms and/or hardware fanboi/gurls.

Its not the integration here, its the die & package size that makes the nice numbers. AMD and Intel don't have to do anything, they can produce any sort of x86 machine for a fraction of the cost with a faster chip.

The way forward for Apple:
- bigger dies / more chiplets = further cost increase per chip
- even further integration which implies even further tailor made solutions, which kills expandability, unless they can automate it somehow. Which could be their higher purpose, they already built pretty strong recompiling software if I recall to bridge ARM > x86.

Both things are finite. You can only scale chips as far as package allows, and we're already looking at a massive package compared to the competition. You can also only scale chips as far as is economically feasible, and that's a moving target, but still finite in some way.

The way forward for x86:
- the focus is still on small dies, the monolithic die is yesterday's news, so we're looking at not just die size increases but simply more chiplets or better arranged core complexes, but still with a focus on reduced yield risk, ergo, small dies. Nodes get smaller, so the gain here is massive - simply because its achievable. Same die size on a smaller node is already a larger floor plan.
- the focus is on more specialized cores that - again - take up lower square mm per core on the die.
- software efficiency is a per-case scenario. Some software will optimize for newer hardware, other stuff will lag behind, but eventually, economics dictate you will need to optimize to keep up. These are costs Intel and AMD are not making, while Apple forced itself into that software garden, with control comes a large responsibility there.

As Apple dies go larger, I predict they'll face an ever more difficult economic balance with a large package. Part of that can be justified by its performance, perf/watt, and the performance of applications that run on it. But the hard cap of its capabilities will be lower than what x86 can be stretched towards, or Apple will have to sacrifice power efficiency for clocks. Basically... something's gonna give one way or another.

Huge chips and huge packages are not risk free, the real, core question is whether Apple timed their move to a larger package right, really.

So far, historically, every company that could hold on to a smaller chip at a competitive level longer than the rest, is the company that won that specific round of silicon wars. Intel during their quad core / single thread focused days (which is the reason they're not abandoning that race either even with the newest core designs; the reason E cores exist is so they can push P cores harder within similar TDPs), and Nvidia ever since Kepler, and even now, with a feature advantage for Nvidia, AMD manages to strike back with a smaller chip even in the strange market of today. I mean yes, AMD won a few rounds in the GCN years especially with HD7970's, but let's not speak of their margins; meanwhile, Nvidia could keep up with smaller, more efficient designs and they started swimming in gold year over year, even while keeping the performance crown and increasing their lead as AMD's GCN stopped scaling proper past Hawaii XT. It is thát money that enabled them to fortify their lead. We have yet to see how things develop post-Ampere as Nvidia does a proper shrink at last, and not this crappy Samsung business; but the only reason Nvidia had margins to speak of on Samsung is because likely Samsung loved having that high profile business and offered something cheap. Even so... the ride was bumpy and we know yields aren't fantastic, and we also know of several price hikes between Pascal and Ampere, while nearly all of Turing was too expensive even in base MSRP... because the die got huge. One gen post Turing and Nvidia lost a convincing +-3~5-year lead to RDNA2 that now has a far stronger road ahead of itself in terms of die size/scalability.

Also... this is Apple, which kind of lives in a vacuum in tech land and is really happy in it. The reason they are what they are is because they have nice things that aren't for everyone's wallet. It remains to be seen how hard they even want to push and fire on all cilinders. They can easily make do on marketing and minimal progress, as we've seen, again, historically.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
3,598 (1.69/day)
Location
UK, Midlands
System Name Main PC
Processor 13700k
Motherboard Asrock Z690 Steel Legend D4 - Bios 13.02
Cooling Noctua NH-D15S
Memory 32 Gig 3200CL14
Video Card(s) 4080 RTX SUPER FE 16G
Storage 1TB 980 PRO, 2TB SN850X, 2TB DC P4600, 1TB 860 EVO, 2x 3TB WD Red, 2x 4TB WD Red
Display(s) LG 27GL850
Case Fractal Define R4
Audio Device(s) Soundblaster AE-9
Power Supply Antec HCG 750 Gold
Software Windows 10 21H2 LTSC
No, you can just look it up on Apple.com, right? 64GB, which is pretty generous for Apple. That's where a lot of the $4000 price comes from. Apple charges $1600 for that ram usually.


60W for the CPU. 100W for the GPU. But currently it rarely gets close to that. Per core performance is high in IPC, but clock speeds are only 3Ghz. 16+4, P+E. Obviously beats any other 3 Ghz consumer CPU. Too bad. That's the only other thing I wanted from the Studio, 4 Ghz clocks, not 3.
Great power efficiency then.
 
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Messages
3,832 (0.59/day)
Location
Northern Ontario Canada
Processor Ryzen 5700x
Motherboard Gigabyte X570S Aero G R1.1 BiosF5g
Cooling Noctua NH-C12P SE14 w/ NF-A15 HS-PWM Fan 1500rpm
Memory Micron DDR4-3200 2x32GB D.S. D.R. (CT2K32G4DFD832A)
Video Card(s) AMD RX 6800 - Asus Tuf
Storage Kingston KC3000 1TB & 2TB & 4TB Corsair MP600 Pro LPX
Display(s) LG 27UL550-W (27" 4k)
Case Be Quiet Pure Base 600 (no window)
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1220-VB
Power Supply SuperFlower Leadex V Gold Pro 850W ATX Ver2.52
Mouse Mionix Naos Pro
Keyboard Corsair Strafe with browns
Software W10 22H2 Pro x64
Intel, AMD, Qualcomm have created an interconnect alliance, probably because they're scared that the rich boy is just throwing money at the problem. That package size is ridiculous, likely matched only by how ridiculous Apple's profit margins are.
Needs some spikes and wheels so we can call it mad max's M1
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
8,282 (3.93/day)
System Name Bragging Rights
Processor Atom Z3735F 1.33GHz
Motherboard It has no markings but it's green
Cooling No, it's a 2.2W processor
Memory 2GB DDR3L-1333
Video Card(s) Gen7 Intel HD (4EU @ 311MHz)
Storage 32GB eMMC and 128GB Sandisk Extreme U3
Display(s) 10" IPS 1280x800 60Hz
Case Veddha T2
Audio Device(s) Apparently, yes
Power Supply Samsung 18W 5V fast-charger
Mouse MX Anywhere 2
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys (not Cherry MX at all)
VR HMD Samsung Oddyssey, not that I'd plug it into this though....
Software W10 21H1, barely
Benchmark Scores I once clocked a Celeron-300A to 564MHz on an Abit BE6 and it scored over 9000.
The "CPU package" not including the memory is 1/3 the size of the IHS. It isn't that big. You can tell by the thermal paste only covering a third of it.
Apple has not hidden what's under the IHS in any way, we all knew up front that there's this:
1647890610454.png

I was merely commenting on the cost. The interposer is expensive for that, the motherboard to handle that is going to be some insanely-expensive 12-layer madness...

It likely costs Apple more to make an M1 Ultra than it costs AMD to make an EPYC 7713 which has a $5K list price, not that you can buy one by itself these days.
 

sys3175

New Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
1 (0.00/day)
Its not the integration here, its the die & package size that makes the nice numbers. AMD and Intel don't have to do anything, they can produce any sort of x86 machine for a fraction of the cost with a faster chip.

The way forward for Apple:
- bigger dies / more chiplets = further cost increase per chip
- even further integration which implies even further tailor made solutions, which kills expandability, unless they can automate it somehow. Which could be their higher purpose, they already built pretty strong recompiling software if I recall to bridge ARM > x86.

Both things are finite. You can only scale chips as far as package allows, and we're already looking at a massive package compared to the competition. You can also only scale chips as far as is economically feasible, and that's a moving target, but still finite in some way.

The way forward for x86:
- the focus is still on small dies, the monolithic die is yesterday's news, so we're looking at not just die size increases but simply more chiplets or better arranged core complexes, but still with a focus on reduced yield risk, ergo, small dies. Nodes get smaller, so the gain here is massive - simply because its achievable. Same die size on a smaller node is already a larger floor plan.
- the focus is on more specialized cores that - again - take up lower square mm per core on the die.
- software efficiency is a per-case scenario. Some software will optimize for newer hardware, other stuff will lag behind, but eventually, economics dictate you will need to optimize to keep up. These are costs Intel and AMD are not making, while Apple forced itself into that software garden, with control comes a large responsibility there.

As Apple dies go larger, I predict they'll face an ever more difficult economic balance with a large package. Part of that can be justified by its performance, perf/watt, and the performance of applications that run on it. But the hard cap of its capabilities will be lower than what x86 can be stretched towards, or Apple will have to sacrifice power efficiency for clocks. Basically... something's gonna give one way or another.

Huge chips and huge packages are not risk free, the real, core question is whether Apple timed their move to a larger package right, really.

So far, historically, every company that could hold on to a smaller chip at a competitive level longer than the rest, is the company that won that specific round of silicon wars. Intel during their quad core / single thread focused days (which is the reason they're not abandoning that race either even with the newest core designs; the reason E cores exist is so they can push P cores harder within similar TDPs), and Nvidia ever since Kepler, and even now, with a feature advantage for Nvidia, AMD manages to strike back with a smaller chip even in the strange market of today. I mean yes, AMD won a few rounds in the GCN years especially with HD7970's, but let's not speak of their margins; meanwhile, Nvidia could keep up with smaller, more efficient designs and they started swimming in gold year over year, even while keeping the performance crown and increasing their lead as AMD's GCN stopped scaling proper past Hawaii XT. It is thát money that enabled them to fortify their lead. We have yet to see how things develop post-Ampere as Nvidia does a proper shrink at last, and not this crappy Samsung business; but the only reason Nvidia had margins to speak of on Samsung is because likely Samsung loved having that high profile business and offered something cheap. Even so... the ride was bumpy and we know yields aren't fantastic, and we also know of several price hikes between Pascal and Ampere, while nearly all of Turing was too expensive even in base MSRP... because the die got huge. One gen post Turing and Nvidia lost a convincing +-3~5-year lead to RDNA2 that now has a far stronger road ahead of itself in terms of die size/scalability.

Also... this is Apple, which kind of lives in a vacuum in tech land and is really happy in it. The reason they are what they are is because they have nice things that aren't for everyone's wallet. It remains to be seen how hard they even want to push and fire on all cilinders. They can easily make do on marketing and minimal progress, as we've seen, again, historically.

I think what all of these responses seem to be missing is that this is not some sort of experiment by Apple. They have spent a lot of money hiring talented engineers and I am certain they have a roadmap in place which takes into account everything which any of us can bring up as shortcomings. This is a first generation product from a company that has never designed a desktop processor in the past, even with the powerpc they were nothing more then an investor and partner in the sense that they informed IBM/Intel/Motorola of their requirements and hoped that they would come up with something which fit their needs.

Again, just because we don't see their roadmap, doesn't mean they don't have one.

I also assume here that they are working closely with ARM to make architectural advancements which will favor their long term objectives. The interesting thing here is that this won't just help Apple in the long run but everyone who uses ARM architecture.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Messages
851 (0.61/day)
Its not the integration here, its the die & package size that makes the nice numbers. AMD and Intel don't have to do anything, they can produce any sort of x86 machine for a fraction of the cost with a faster chip.

The way forward for Apple:
- bigger dies / more chiplets = further cost increase per chip
- even further integration which implies even further tailor made solutions, which kills expandability, unless they can automate it somehow. Which could be their higher purpose, they already built pretty strong recompiling software if I recall to bridge ARM > x86.

Both things are finite. You can only scale chips as far as package allows, and we're already looking at a massive package compared to the competition. You can also only scale chips as far as is economically feasible, and that's a moving target, but still finite in some way.

The way forward for x86:
- the focus is still on small dies, the monolithic die is yesterday's news, so we're looking at not just die size increases but simply more chiplets or better arranged core complexes, but still with a focus on reduced yield risk, ergo, small dies. Nodes get smaller, so the gain here is massive - simply because its achievable. Same die size on a smaller node is already a larger floor plan.
- the focus is on more specialized cores that - again - take up lower square mm per core on the die.
- software efficiency is a per-case scenario. Some software will optimize for newer hardware, other stuff will lag behind, but eventually, economics dictate you will need to optimize to keep up. These are costs Intel and AMD are not making, while Apple forced itself into that software garden, with control comes a large responsibility there.
Yeah, I agree, if they just keep doing what they (Apple) are doing at some point things become pretty unwieldy. Already I'm not sure how they would do a real Mac Pro based on this chip.

It will be interesting to see what they do for the next generation for their desktop designs and if they change their approach. The M1 at its core is really just stuff they have been doing for iPhones and iPads scaled way up. That totally makes sense as it gives them a very much a good enough starting point but they might have something that really starts to deviate from what they are putting in their mobile devices in ways other than just size for future desktop CPUs.
 
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
216 (0.14/day)
System Name Home
Processor 5950x
Motherboard Asrock Taichi x370
Cooling Thermalright True Spirit 140
Memory Patriot 32gb DDR4 3200mhz
Video Card(s) Sapphire Radeon RX 6700 10gb
Storage Too many to count
Display(s) U2518D+u2417h
Case Chieftec
Audio Device(s) onboard
Power Supply seasonic prime 1000W
Mouse Razer Viper
Keyboard Logitech
Software Windows 10
For content creation in photo/video space Apple will probably beat everyone, they kind of beat everyone with that tiny machine, low power consumption and very high performance.
What they will never achieve is beat PC gaming and raw compute power of desktops, but, the problem is that huge raw compute power desktop's can achieve is most of the time sitting idle in content creation apps and that's why Apple will eventually be overwhelmingly the favorite for some professionals, they put that hardware to work.
 
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
8,282 (3.93/day)
System Name Bragging Rights
Processor Atom Z3735F 1.33GHz
Motherboard It has no markings but it's green
Cooling No, it's a 2.2W processor
Memory 2GB DDR3L-1333
Video Card(s) Gen7 Intel HD (4EU @ 311MHz)
Storage 32GB eMMC and 128GB Sandisk Extreme U3
Display(s) 10" IPS 1280x800 60Hz
Case Veddha T2
Audio Device(s) Apparently, yes
Power Supply Samsung 18W 5V fast-charger
Mouse MX Anywhere 2
Keyboard Logitech MX Keys (not Cherry MX at all)
VR HMD Samsung Oddyssey, not that I'd plug it into this though....
Software W10 21H1, barely
Benchmark Scores I once clocked a Celeron-300A to 564MHz on an Abit BE6 and it scored over 9000.
Yeah I think that's the big conclusion when we see all these tech companies and the reason MS shouldn't lock Windows down too much. They have a very VERY strong proposition in the market and if they keep Windows versatile, legacy capable and accessible all at the same time, while improving usability for non-advanced users, they can keep it that way. But the moves of applications to the Windows Store, for example, counter that idea completely. Its the same thing as their Metro UI brainfart with Windows 8, the same as their bundled Kinect with an Xbox that had to be always-online... The moment they try to play by a new rulebook, the userbase punishes it super hard.

I like that consumer power at work, a lot. I hope MS will keep listening, because its for their own good...

Linux is a real contender sooner rather than later, too, because a big part of Windows in consumer markets right now is gaming. And that really is the three flavors we have:
- open, subject to change you can choose to implement, full adaptability, low user friendly score (Linux)
- not open, subject to change you must implement, high adaptability, high user friendly score (Windows)
- walled garden, subject to change you won't like and will cost you money you don't prefer spending, ultra high user friendly score, very limited adaptability (anything Apple)
The Steam Deck running Proton has moved the first two flavours closer together than they've ever been before. Once DRM and Anti-cheat developers get their head around Proton, it's going to seriously increase the catalogue of games that don't need Windows.

Your average windows gamer just wants their game to run, discord or whatever, and some web browser stuff. User-friendly Linux distros that do this and run Proton are getting more popular by the day....
 
Top