Apple Preparing M4 Chips with AI Capabilities to Fight Declining Mac Sales

[dragontamer5788]

ok, can someone finally explain what the hell "AI capabilities" or "AI hardware" even is?
For what I know its just calculations, its just stuff google has been doing for years already and otherwise simulation programms.

What the heck is different about the hardware...what does it even mean? is it like an ASIC situation?

Every "AI Capability" I've seen is a 16-bit floating point matrix multiplication acceleration of some kind, but its obscure how far any particular company goes.

NVidia has 4x4 sparse matrix (if more than half the locations are 0, NVidia executes them a bit faster).

AMD Called dot-product an AI routine a few years ago.

Intel calls their int8 matrix multiplication AVX512 instructions an "AI" instruction.

Various ASICs of 8x8 to 256x256 matrix sizes are also "AI capabilities", which are more efficient in theory. But in practice, NVidia / AMD / Intel just builds on a more advanced node (ex: 3nm), which more than wipes out the advantages of larger matrix instructions. Some companies call bfloat16 AI, but others are half-float (another 16-bit format). Other companies support both 16-bit formats. Some companies (ex: Intel) like to call 8-bit integer matrix multiplications AI.

So there's no standardization at all here.

 

[QUANTUMPHYSICS]

Unfortunately for Apple: they've peaked. The iPhone is perfect. The Mac is perfect. The iPad is perfect. Where do you go from there?

 

[Dr. Dro]

Yes - Apple defines "pro" users as anyone that uses either Final Cut or Logic. Anyone else simply doesn't exist, as far as Timmy is concerned.

For me the 7,1 Mac Pro was the final "FU" moment.

A $1,200 machine with a $4,500 chassis (not including the $400 non-locking wheels). Every single subsystem was obsolete the day it was released. Two years later, Apple cut sling load on every Intel Mac user.

This segment has always been mistreated anyway. The Power Mac G5 had the same fate as the latest Mac Pro... it was released right at the edge of the PPC to Intel transition and launched effectively obsolete and at the cost of a high-end workstation. The 2013 Mac Pro being stuck to its custom (and mega obsolete) FirePros effectively killed its viability (despite the low prices of Xeon E5 v2 CPUs for it), and the 2010-2012 MP's just too obsolete to matter...

 

[NC37]

If they want more sales they need to finally make something that isn't brushed metal. Apple back seated Macs in favor of phones and then continued to do that over and over. Cook did that. He doesn't know how to handle Macs.

 

[R0H1T]

Where do you go from there?

You don't want iRobot?

Apple Exploring 'Mobile Robot' That 'Follows Users Around Their Homes'

Apple is exploring various "personal robotics" projects in an effort to create its "next big thing," according to Bloomberg's...

www.macrumors.com

 

[mechtech]

Know what might help sales, better prices or actual sales.................

 

[TechLurker]

This makes the M3 the shortest-lived CPU gen from them, assuming it actually happens. Then again, they also need to redo their hardware anyway to get around the unfixable security vulnerability that plagues their M1s and M2s, and to a lesser degree, their M3s. So it's a sacrifice they'll need to make regardless.

That said, I may as well just wait for the M2 stuff to go on sale and buy a tablet from them.

 

[mb194dc]

What is the use case for "AI" on consumer devices like phoes, or even PCs? It's all just hysterical hype, without a feature people en mass actually want?

There are some real use cases, certainly a lot more than for Blockchain. But it's largely bullshit.

 

[stimpy88]

Unfortunately for Apple: they've peaked. The iPhone is perfect. The Mac is perfect. The iPad is perfect. Where do you go from there?

Lowering their prices? And the GPU performance of the devices are far from "peak".

 

[kondamin]

This makes the M3 the shortest-lived CPU gen from them, assuming it actually happens. Then again, they also need to redo their hardware anyway to get around the unfixable security vulnerability that plagues their M1s and M2s, and to a lesser degree, their M3s. So it's a sacrifice they'll need to make regardless.

That said, I may as well just wait for the M2 stuff to go on sale and buy a tablet from them.

N3 was a bad node if I remember correctly so that makes sense

 

[Minus Infinity]

N3 was a bad node if I remember correctly so that makes sense

N3B is trash, basically an expensive and minute improvement in all the key metrics over N4P. but crApple needed to boast about being first with 3nm despite it being ovepriced and underperformant. Most are waiting for N3E.

 

[G777]

I've always been disappointed Apple hasn't embraced CAD/CAM/Design/3D Printing. I imagine their chips would excel at the workloads. Macs are literally for the mother-in-law only, just so she's that less likely to get a virus/ransomware/etc.

Don't they have Autodesk AutoCAD and Fusion for Mac? There's not much more than that but it's something at least.

 

[watzupken]

Surely the declining Mac sales are a direct result of Apple's limited ecosystem of mostly consumption apps rather than productivity and sky-high pricing for a general user that is finding more and more capability in their phones with each passing year?

I know Apple still have the edge in photo editing and video editing, but the switch to Apple silicon means that their performance advantage (for the eye-watering price tags) is limited to an even narrower range of applications than the already restrictive walled garden.

Three of the most vocal Apple fans here are work defend Macbooks because they're beautiful hardware they can use to access a bash prompt, and I can't argue with that - in fact I strongly agree with them.

In my opinion, the declining sale are due to,
1. Increasing prices,
2. Stingy hardware specs that are not user upgradeable,
3. Incremental improvements.

I was very impressed after using the first gen M1 MacBook Air. While they have upgraded the M2 and M3 MBA, I don’t feel you are getting a significant improvement in performance and user experience. Speaking of performance, Apple avoided comparing with M2 because the improvement in performance is marginal and generally at the expense of battery life. If they focus on AI for the M4, you can be sure it will not improve sales.

 

[theouto]

ok, can someone finally explain what the hell "AI capabilities" or "AI hardware" even is?
For what I know its just calculations, its just stuff google has been doing for years already and otherwise simulation programms.

What the heck is different about the hardware...what does it even mean? is it like an ASIC situation?

For you? It means nothing, 99% of people won't use those capabilities, even power users. It's added price for almost nothing in return.

 

[phints]

Unfortunately for Apple: they've peaked. The iPhone is perfect. The Mac is perfect. The iPad is perfect. Where do you go from there?

Open up their products a little. They have POSIX compliance okay cool, but drop Metal and switch to Vulkan as your API, allow sideloading, allow 3rd party GPUs. Imagine an M4 Pro paired with an RTX 5080 end of year with Vulkan API. Devs would actually want to work with them.

I know it seems outlandish, but those things would actually make consider purchasing an Apple product. I enjoy my iPhone 15, but I would not consider buying any other product they offer because of their closed ecosystem.

 

[remixedcat]

Open up their products a little. They have POSIX compliance okay cool, but drop Metal and switch to Vulkan as your API, allow sideloading, allow 3rd party GPUs. Imagine an M4 Pro paired with an RTX 5080 end of year with Vulkan API. Devs would actually want to work with them.

I know it seems outlandish, but those things would actually make consider purchasing an Apple product. I enjoy my iPhone 15, but I would not consider buying any other product they offer because of their closed ecosystem.

repairability

 

[Noyand]

If they want more sales they need to finally make something that isn't brushed metal. Apple back seated Macs in favor of phones and then continued to do that over and over. Cook did that. He doesn't know how to handle Macs.

Sandblasted*. Brushed aluminium is a very different texture that Apple never used on the hardware side. If you are referencing to the UI, they stopped using brushed metal since 2007.

 

[Random_User]

Oh, how about fix the "unpatchable" vulnerabilities, instead of adding some new "AI" holes? The cheese for new grater?

ok, can someone finally explain what the hell "AI capabilities" or "AI hardware" even is?
For what I know its just calculations, its just stuff google has been doing for years already and otherwise simulation programms.

What the heck is different about the hardware...what does it even mean? is it like an ASIC situation?

It's even more pricey.

Yes it's an ASIC, you pay for extra silicon real estate that you're not gonna use. It will make collecting your data more energy efficient.

Or just do it much faster at all costs. Eventually it's the end users that pays the electric bills for their data being stolen.

 

[cvaldes]

If they want more sales they need to finally make something that isn't brushed metal. Apple back seated Macs in favor of phones and then continued to do that over and over. Cook did that. He doesn't know how to handle Macs.

Incorrect.

Mac has grown in PC marketshare over the years percentage wise.

But no company can rest on their laurels. We have recently seen Samsung reclaim the title as top smartphone manufacturer from Apple.

 

[remixedcat]

Incorrect.

Mac has grown in PC marketshare over the years percentage wise.

But no company can rest on their laurels. We have recently seen Samsung reclaim the title as top smartphone manufacturer from Apple.

apple is the kings of complacency... what was the last thing that was truly innovative and wasn't a copy cat?? steve jobs might remember...

 

[cvaldes]

apple is the kings of complacency... what was the last thing that was truly innovative and wasn't a copy cat?? steve jobs might remember...

Apple is rarely first to market in any product category.

Computer, music player, mobile phone, tablet, TV streamer, smartwatch, VR HMD. All launched first elsewhere. Same with its services: media store, cloud services, streaming media, payment network, etc. All of its started by others.

Being first to a category doesn't automatically make it the best. Ask Microsoft how well Windows Mobile operating system is doing. How many BlackBerrys does RIM sell in 2024?

Apple's long suite is its vertical integration -- particularly with its services. That's what has made it so popular. The whole experience is greater than the sum of its individual parts.

I know it's very fashionable to bash Apple here at TPU (and many other places on the Internet) but I will point out that the company has gone from being close to bankruptcy into the #2 company by US market capitalization. Even if its customers are complacent, they sure are willing to continue spending money. And Apple pretty much leads the customer satisfaction surveys in every single major category they are eligible for. So there's something to be said there.

 

[Beginner Macro Device]

I sold my iPhone for the reason they couldn't even make a Telegram app that's not complete bollocks. Literally everything requires at least two taps more than on the Android app which is by no mean perfect. They also banned Russian banking apps so monetary operations became a major PITA. This certainly does hinder their sales since both online banking and Telegram are very high priority here in Russia.

Apple are a miss for me in case of PCs because you can't game on macs. Yeah, you can technically install Windows and can technically launch some games but a quote-unquote normal PC of half the price gets you 4+ times more FPS. Also much lesser chance of glitches and crashes.

AI... no one but a couple mad scientists needs that. Canonical buzzword.

 

[cvaldes]

I sold my iPhone for the reason they couldn't even make a Telegram app that's not complete bollocks. Literally everything requires at least two taps more than on the Android app which is by no mean perfect. They also banned Russian banking apps so monetary operations became a major PITA. This certainly does hinder their sales since both online banking and Telegram are very high priority here in Russia.

Apple are a miss for me in case of PCs because you can't game on macs. Yeah, you can technically install Windows and can technically launch some games but a quote-unquote normal PC of half the price gets you 4+ times more FPS. Also much lesser chance of glitches and crashes.

AI... no one but a couple mad scientists needs that. Canonical buzzword.

FYI, Apple is not the author of the Telegram app. Don't blame Apple for Telegram's devs' lack of skill.

Also, there's nothing stopping anyone from owning more than one computer. In my house, there are Macs, Windows PCs, even an RPi4 running Raspian (or whatever they call it these days).

One thing for sure, Apple Silicon-power Macs destroy my Windows PCs in performance-per-watt. I have a separate Windows PC for gaming so that's not an issue.

 

[Beginner Macro Device]

FYI, Apple is not the author of the Telegram app.

I know but this genuinely doesn't matter. I don't get quality experience and this is what matters.

there's nothing stopping anyone from owning more than one computer

Apple PCs cost a lot of money; not everyone in their clear mind is willing to spend several Franklins on a thing that doesn't do gaming well. I personally don't do anything that's working better on mac than on Windows so my purchase history is obvious. Also not every country is the US; sub-10K USD annual median salaries are a thing.

 

[cvaldes]

I know but this genuinely doesn't matter. I don't get quality experience and this is what matters.

Again, that's your particular anti-Apple bias showing itself. If the Redfall game sucks, do you blame your PC maker? The GPU maker? Your PSU maker?

Apple PCs cost a lot of money; not everyone in their clear mind is willing to spend several Franklins on a thing that doesn't do gaming well. I personally don't do anything that's working better on mac than on Windows so my purchase history is obvious. Also not every country is the US; sub-10K USD annual median salaries are a thing.

And not everyone buys computers for gaming. There are other usage cases for computers that aren't gaming and Macs are actually pretty good at some of them. If you don't do any of those things, good for you. But there are people who do and you can't disclaim their needs.

Remember that Apple's PC marketshare has grown percentage wise over the years so it's not just a handful of Apple fanbois propping up unit hardware sales.

I'm very much aware that other countries do not have the same median salaries as the US. It's worth pointing out that Apple's biggest market is PR China where the annual salary is considerably lower than in the USA. I read their SEC filings.

There are good things and bad things about Apple products and services. I own a cheap Acer Swift notebook instead of a fancy Apple MacBook. But I game (infrequently) on a well-appointed Windows PC and do most of my daily productivity stuff on a Mac mini M2 Pro. And when I need to fire up a spreadsheet, I ignore Apple's free Numbers spreadsheet app and fire up Excel on a $160 mini PC (I paid $25 for a MS Office 2021 license).

For whatever its worth, I've owned both Macs and Windows PC since the Nineties. In the corporate environment, I have used whatever system my employer provided for me, always a Windows PC. In my personal life I have options and I choose both.