Asus router making squeaking/high freq buzzing when stressed

[Ferrum Master]

Inductors are coils/chokes... Not sure what you're talking about. The Asus has at least four of them from what I can see.

Inductor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I already have a basic 10Gbps switch at home, so I'm not waiting. Only two ports, but I only have two 10Gbps devices so far, so not really a problem.

First of all... damn oligarch...

About the coils. Just habits. Because of the naming in different languages differ a lot. I have a lot of German because of DIN and Russian because of the availability of educational material... and my native language in the middle... on your board L1-L5 resides SMD ferrite beads, those are low pass filters. Asus board has 4 chokes and 2 double ferrite beds for ESD protection, induktivitāte is my native for it like in German Induktivität. They are so majestic in the design they don't even mark most elements on the board. Considering late trends... in all Asus product departments... they are not the same as they used to be...

Good RF design may need 6 layers, because of the space and noise.... longer traces means more noise, heat and problems. Mobile SOC PMUS need to have it, as they have a large BGA pinout and have to supply much more wider peripheral amount, it is a swiss army knife, few screen voltages, RF for wifi/bt combo, NFC, 2G/WCDMA/LTE, various CPU voltages, VRAM, two SIM voltages, SD card, and the high current battery charging, that's now even 25W etc etc... it is truly a a powerhouse. They will not use planar design because of mechanical issues also. BGA is more sturdy, offers more flexibility. Router is kinda simple tbh... as it needs to do only few things... and cheap! If you say those 5GHz parts leaked current like pigs it may needed a better VRM in general not just some better chokes. It seems you tried to drive it above the efficient range and parasitics overtook the place.

I am not a 50 years old geezer, who lies on old laurels... as long you step out of the train for even year... you missed a lot... that's true. You can compensate it with sheer luck and intuition tho, but most problem with older peps are stubbornest, they reject the facts, that everything really has changed, stepping into new domains and materials really changes the rules of the game. As for electronics goes each specific niche needs expertise and dive in for few weeks... you seek out... there is no datasheet without an error... but that's the good thing... as soon you reach the level finding flaws there you are competent enough to compare and grasp things needed for your project, that usually differs so much because of the goals you need to achieve.

Considering this case looking at the device boutique... for sure those are the C-OUT caps with the PCB squealing underneath... It uses a BCM4360 RF IC's, the consumption is unknown, but considering PCIe solutions based on them for laptops it is fairly low and it uses 3.3V and 1.2V voltage lanes, basically CPU vreg + 3x SE5023L RF power amps are fed by three voltages by ideal design, by a mandatory 5V and two voltages from 3V to Vcc3 ie the 5V(and most probably the same) and vref prolly made from a simple voltage divider - 600mA, the RTC6649E for 2.4GHz PA is operated from 5V and vref around 3V made from a divider according to the datasheet. And uses 430mA at max power. So basically one shoulder with 1.8A other with 1.29A for the RF amps and + the power that's on the right side of the board. We have 3 Vregs for radio and one for RF IC/CPU/DRAM... seems pretty logic to me for a budget design... and it operates within safe limits. If you limit the PA's within 25% of max ratios as it usually is, the current draw will be reduced drastically as they will cease to leak due to high bad/cheap tech node antics.

Considering the fact the power adapter for that Asus is 33W ie 19V@1.75A at all considering the reserve is for powering USB devices... I guess... let's leave the coil issues out.

 

[TheLostSwede]

@Ferrum Master as knowledgeable as you are, you really should read up on PA/LNA's. They're not leaking, they're tiny chips, a lot of power goes through them, they produce a lot of heat. Skyworks even moved to gallium arsenide, rather than regular silicon due to this.
PA/LNAs are not like other chips in devices and this is why you see routers with massive heatsinks and even fans these days, as that part of the PCB is what gets so hot, not the SoC.

Yes, BGA might be better for some designs, but you seem to focus a lot on the latest in tech. Sadly the market doesn't work like that, as it's so much about cost. This is why we're still getting brand new chips in QFP type packaging. They're simple to play with and can in theory be used with single layer PCBs. If it's not a high-speed device, BGA and similar type packaging is simply not needed. BGA is great for things like DRAM, but if you want some SPI flash, it makes no sense at all to use a complex, expensive chip packaging, as there's no benefit going down that route. Even most device level Wi-Fi chips are using some kind of QFP/QFN packaging and not BGA. The same applies to most Ethernet controllers up to 2.5Gbps.

I also think you should learn to listen to those that are older than you, instead of calling people and old geezer. Yes, that guy was a rotten apple, but a lot of the older engineers has something you don't have, it's called experience. This guy was just bad at his job and a lot of people are good at hiding that and getting on with their jobs anyhow. I have unfortunately worked with quite a few people like that, most of them weren't engineers though.

It sounds like you need to get a lot more hands on experience working in the real world. What happens when the part maker says it's working fine and there's no issue and that their materials are correct, yet there's a problem? We wasted three months at Securifi trying to figure out and issue, which turned out to be a driver bug in the end, which took another two months for the chip maker to fix. That's something no datasheet, experience or otherwise can account for. Sometimes, shit simply happens.

I'm still 100% sure that it's the coils that are causing the whine, but you're free to have a different opinion. As I said, I have hands on experience of exactly this happening in a router, but only when the Wi-Fi is transmitting. There's no other logical reason for the noise. But hey, maybe the OP can send the router to you for investigation once the OP has replaced it?

 

[Fif23]

The two Asus 68's are on their way from the store.
Once installed, I will upload pictures of the PCB causing the wifi noise and try to pinpoint what broke... Perhaps with your help, I can order and resolder a component and have it fixed ? Is it a possibility on these designs ?

By the way, it has this AI Mesh feature, which is the idea behind the "two packs" they sell of these routers, which requires 2 or more Asus routers ... Should I mess with that at all or is it just a gimmick from asus ?

Also regarding Merlin - Is it possible to send specific clients through VPN or must I be global like the stock firmware ?

 

[dirtyferret]

As an affordable router, the RT-AC68x range isn't bad, but it's not great either. The one I'm using at the moment (as I'm stuck abroad due to the Wuhan virus) has pretty poor 5GHz range.

Not sure what else you're looking for in a router in terms of features.

I've owned several broadcom based Asus routers over the years with no issue including the the N56U, N66R, and AC66U. My last two Asus routers, AC68U and AC66 B1 have both crapped out on me after more then a year of use each. My current router, broadcom based Netgear nighthawk offers great 5ghz performance and beyond mediocre 2.4ghz performance as the signal strength of that frequency has deteriorated over the its two year existence. Right now the qualcomm wave 2 routers are the big recommendation on the SNB forums and I may look to take one out for a run.

 

[TheLostSwede]

The two Asus 68's are on their way from the store.
Once installed, I will upload pictures of the PCB causing the wifi noise and try to pinpoint what broke... Perhaps with your help, I can order and resolder a component and have it fixed ? Is it a possibility on these designs ?

By the way, it has this AI Mesh feature, which is the idea behind the "two packs" they sell of these routers, which requires 2 or more Asus routers ... Should I mess with that at all or is it just a gimmick from asus ?

Also regarding Merlin - Is it possible to send specific clients through VPN or must I be global like the stock firmware ?

It might be possible to try and swap the components, but I'm not sure. I know I'm not good enough at soldering to do it.

The AI Mesh is more or less a fancy name for using one of the two routers as a Wi-Fi range extender. It'll reduce the speed of the Wi-Fi on both routers, but it should work just fine. Ideally, run a cable between the two and set the second one up as an AP instead.

Server or client mode for VPN? You can run multiple servers and clients, but not sure what you're looking at doing so...
This is the server settings page.

This is the VPN client page.

I've owned several broadcom based Asus routers over the years with no issue including the the N56U, N66R, and AC66U. My last two Asus routers, AC68U and AC66 B1 have both crapped out on me after more then a year of use each. My current router, broadcom based Netgear nighthawk offers great 5ghz performance and beyond mediocre 2.4ghz performance as the signal strength of that frequency has deteriorated over the its two year existence. Right now the qualcomm wave 2 routers are the big recommendation on the SNB forums and I may look to take one out for a run.

I haven't used any Broadcom based Netgear routers, so I don't have anything to say about them, but yes, some routers seems to have this issue that the signal strength dies over time. Most of that is related to factory tuning and the life span/cooling of the PA/LNAs.

The R7800 has been amazing I have to say, it's four years old by now and hasn't skipped a beat in that time. Never had to reboot it, beyond firmware updates. Netgear has been a bit so-so in terms of software updates, but considering that it's a rather old product and they still push out updates, is actually quite amazing. With Voxel's firmware it'll most likely be able to live on and get improved for at least another couple of years.

 

[Fif23]

Thanks for the pics !
Hey, what's that TOR tab ? Can it route via TOR over windows ?! Are you kidding me ? That is insane. Does it work ?? Been using the Tallow softawre for that (to get global windows tor routing) but this is better if it works. I will probably kill the CPU though ?

Yes the R7800 looks good, but way too expensive for what it is. When they start running sales on it, as AX becomes popular then it will be a good buy for an average home

See here is a recording of the noise with the Radio in use by a client. You can open the file with VLC player

https://www.sendspace.com/file/zhjyqc

Driving me crazy !

 

[TheLostSwede]

Thanks for the pics !
Hey, what's that TOR tab ? Can it route via TOR over windows ?! Are you kidding me ? That is insane. Does it work ?? Been using the Tallow softawre for that (to get global windows tor routing) but this is better if it works. I will probably kill the CPU though ?

Yes the R7800 looks good, but way too expensive for what it is. When they start running sales on it, as AX becomes popular then it will be a good buy for an average home

See here is a recording of the noise with the Radio in use by a client. You can open the file with VLC player

https://www.sendspace.com/file/zhjyqc

Driving me crazy !

Not tried the TOR stuff, so I can't answer that, but I presume it works.

As for the recording, hard to tell, but it doesn't sound high-pitched enough to be coil whine, as it tends to have a different tone. Maybe I'm wrong in this instance, but it's hard to tell. It sounds more hissy than screeching, but maybe that's just the recording.

 

[Fif23]

you can add .mp3 to it and it will open in any app Otherwise VLC player should eat it as is

 

[theonek]

don't stress your router so much, it will riot onto you and that's the warning signals..

 

[Fif23]

tell me about it, The first two nights I put a mouse trap in the work room until I realized that It was the damn router

It is the last piece of hardware you put your eat to when diagnosing noises haha

Not tried the TOR stuff, so I can't answer that, but I presume it works.

As for the recording, hard to tell, but it doesn't sound high-pitched enough to be coil whine, as it tends to have a different tone. Maybe I'm wrong in this instance, but it's hard to tell. It sounds more hissy than screeching, but maybe that's just the recording.

Whatever it is, that can't be "normal operation" am I right ?
So I did good ordering replacements before I get stuck on some weekend ?

I admit in real life it's much more high pitched, i'm the only one in the house that can hear it.

 

[jsfitz54]

So I did good ordering replacements before I get stuck on some weekend ?

What I would have done is download the Merlin firmware, save backup settings just in case, reset to factory defaults, Flash Merlin, set to factory defaults again after flash and reboot, and load settings from scratch.

The router you ordered is fine but getting old.

The AX58U (aka AX3000) is a sleeper with a (4x4) antenna disguised marketed as (2x2) and (2x2). And much more powerful with newer tech. And you most likely would only need one unless you have some circumstance you did not disclose.

 

[TheLostSwede]

What I would have done is download the Merlin firmware, save backup settings just in case, reset to factory defaults, Flash Merlin, set to factory defaults again after flash and reboot, and load settings from scratch.

The router you ordered is fine but getting old.

The AX58U (aka AX3000) is a sleeper with a (4x4) antenna disguised marketed as (2x2) and (2x2). And much more powerful with newer tech. And you most likely would only need one unless you have some circumstance you did not disclose.

New tech ≠ better.
In fact, a lot of new routers have lower end CPU cores than some of the older routers.
The CPU in the AX58U is a triple core Cortex-A7 https://www.broadcom.com/products/wireless/wireless-lan-infrastructure/bcm6750
That's hardly cutting edge, nor particularly powerful.
It's only about on pair with the dual core Cortex-A9 found in the RT-AC68U.
Something like the RT-AC86U has a quad core Cotex-A53, so if processor performance is what matters, then that should be the one to go for.

Both Broadcom and Qualcomm has made a lot of "cheap" Cortex-A7 based router SoCs over the past couple of years, as it allows them to sell cheap chips to the router makers and the router makers make more margin, since most consumers have no idea what's inside their router.
The IPQ40xx series and the BCM675x are most likely best avoided if you're looking for a high-performance router.

On top of that, 802.11ax is still in beta. It's not something I would waste money on today, as all the router SoCs lack features and most can never be software updated to support all the missing features. Now we're getting revision 1.5 beta hardware with support for the 6GHz band in the US. I would wait until revision 2.0 hardware is out, then we might actually get feature complete routers. Interoperability is still a bit iffy too.
Please read the below links, to see what I'm talking about.

Wi-Fi 6 Performance Roundup: Five Routers Tested - SmallNetBuilder

We take a look at how five Wi-Fi 6 routers perform with a Wi-Fi 6 client.

www.smallnetbuilder.com

What's Missing From Your Wi-Fi 6 Router? OFDMA - SmallNetBuilder

OFDMA, a key Wi-Fi 6 feature, is still mostly absent from consumer routers and makers are not telling us.

www.smallnetbuilder.com

Also, if anyone's interested, here's the most up-to-date list of hardware found inside Asus routers.

List of ASUS Devices - Wireless Routers - TechInfoDepot

en.techinfodepot.shoutwiki.com

 

[Fif23]

Are those the same chips Apple is using for the iphone ?

 

[Ferrum Master]

@Ferrum Master as knowledgeable as you are, you really should read up on PA/LNA's. They're not leaking, they're tiny chips, a lot of power goes through them, they produce a lot of heat. Skyworks even moved to gallium arsenide, rather than regular silicon due to this.

We can stop on this... do some learning.

 

[TheLostSwede]

Are those the same chips Apple is using for the iphone ?

Chips, no, cores, well, it's the same base, but Apple has done some tweaks to the CPU core designs they've licensed from ARM.
Anyone can license cores from ARM to build a CPU/SoC around.