Battery swap for cyberpower UPS

[Bill_Bright]

It was made possible because regulation [I mean voltage regulation, not laws] had improved over time, and narrower tolerance ranges could be set.

That was part of it but another, perhaps bigger, part was newer technologies made self-sensing, self-adjusting, "universal" power supplies more cost effective.

For example, most computer power supplies these days support just about any input from 90V up to 250V without any user intervention - other than ensuring they use the correct power cord for the region.

In this way, manufacturers can make a single model for worldwide distribution with the only difference being the packaging language and the included power cord. Logistically speaking, that is much simpler and, therefore, much less costly than designing, maintaining inventory, and distributing multiple versions of the same product.

***

So are we heading off onto yet another OT discussion?

 

[Shrek]

Regulation has its own issues

Without regulation, as the power station gets overloaded its voltage drops, which would normally help it cope.

With regulated power supplies, the load would not reduce and the power station is more likely to collapse.

 

[CrAsHnBuRnXp]

When my UPS took a shit last year, i found for my particular UPS that the replacement batteries were more or less the same price as a new unit. I just bought a new unit and called it a day.

 

[Bill_Bright]

When my UPS took a shit last year, i found for my particular UPS that the replacement batteries were more or less the same price as a new unit.

If you shop for exact OEM-branded replacement batteries, they are ridiculously overpriced. So, as I posted earlier (and often elsewhere) I never EVER buy replacement batteries from the UPS maker but ALWAYS buy, and recommend everyone buy from 3rd party vendors instead. Turns out, most often (once you peel off the labels) the UPS makers use the exact same cells as the 3rd party suppliers.

The ONLY difference, besides the label, is the OEM may use a special bracket to simplify assembly of multiple cells into the one battery pack, and connection to the UPS. This is why I also recommend users take pictures of the assembled old battery pack, to include how the cells are jumpered, AND to keep the current brackets to reuse and to make assembly of the new pack simple, and most importantly, correct.

So I shop at BatteryWholesale, Battery Mart, Batteryplex, RefurbUPS, Walmart or Amazon - depending on who has the best price on that day. Note today one distributor will price high with free shipping and the next day price low but with additional shipping charges added. So be sure to factor in shipping, which can be significant, but sometimes free.

Just make sure you get the same voltage. The amp/hour rating can be higher however, for longer run times, but not lower. For example, it the current cells are 12V 7.2AH, I always go with 12V 9AH. And last, make sure you get the correct terminal size. There are inexpensive adapters but typically space inside the UPS battery compartment is too limited.

F1 vs F2 terminal connector size

F1 Terminal – 3/16” (0.187”, 4.8mm) wide
F2 Terminal – 1/4" (0.25”, 6.35mm) wide

In the decades of use and replacing UPS batteries, not once have I ever had a problem finding, buying or using 3rd party replacement cells priced significantly lower than the OEM replacements from the UPS maker.

The ONLY exception is not really an exception. Some, not all, but some rack mounted UPS use proprietary mad:) batteries that are hard-wired in and not meant to be user-replaceable. However, most home and small office users don't use equipment racks.

 

[Shrek]

Not sure all lead acid batteries are equal; I run a AGM battery in my car.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Not sure all lead acid batteries are equal; I run a AGM battery in my car.

No, they are not all equal. But AGM actually fits in a different category of SLA batteries and are designed for applications that have frequent heavy discharges and often not enough time to fully recover. For example, in cars where the motor shuts off every time you come to a red light. The battery then powers everything while off, then must start the engine again. It then only has time to recharge until the next red light, which may only be a block or two away, and not enough time to fully recharge the battery. These are similar to marine type SLA batteries.

If the UPS is frequently cutting over to battery backup, an AGM type SLA may be beneficial.

 

[Panther_Seraphin]

It should be noted that it is common AND normal for the mains voltage to vary a few volts throughout the day. For example, while mine typically sits most of the time at 120VAC, I often see it drop to 117VAC and climb to 121VAC. This is perfectly normal as the load on the local transformers vary throughout the neighborhoods and across the regional power grid as users (and businesses) wake and go to sleep, the sun rises and sets, high wattage machines and appliances like ACs, refrigerators, furnaces, clothes driers, ovens, etc. turn or cycle on and off.

Where there are several power hungry businesses in the area, or on abnormally hot or cold days, those variances might even be wider and still be normal, and perfectly safe for our electronics.

And don't forget, IT IS NORMAL for different voltages to appear at different outlets throughout the house. Fact: The longer the conductor (wire) the greater the resistance. In fact the spec here says for 120VAC mains, the voltage "at the furthest" outlet should be no less than 114V (a drop of 5%). Note an increase of 5% would be 126V and still within allowed tolerances.

With 240VAC mains the variances would be similar and still perfectly normal and safe for ALL our electronics with many devices being significantly more robust and tolerant.

So do NOT expect your mains voltage to be rock steady at exactly 120VAC or 240VAC or whatever is standard for your part of the world.

What you can and should expect, however, at least in most advanced, industrialized countries, is steady frequencies. That is, 50 or 60Hz should remain at 50Hz or 60Hz at all times. In the US, the allowed tolerance is ±0.5% or from 59.7Hz to 60.3Hz. I personally have never seen it vary more than .1Hz, and typically it is exactly 60Hz.

I really should get the network card for this Eaton UPS I have so I could log all this, but with the logging done so far with a Mk1 Eyeball I have seen voltage swings personally of ~238 up to 246 so far and a frequency swing from 49.8 to 50.5 so far where I live. Nothing Horrendous but it just goes to show that things can swing a lot with no real known issues/problems.

Regulation has its own issues

Without regulation, as the power station gets overloaded its voltage drops, which would normally help it cope.

With regulated power supplies, the load would not reduce and the power station is more likely to collapse.

Problem is that if you dont have regulation you devices can attempt to run at voltages way out of its spec leading to some spectacular failures especially in motor windings. Due to current demand going through the roof as voltage drops off leading to massive increase in temperatures in the windings suddenly you end up with all the plastic brushes melted out the back of the motor in short order.

Now normally a power plant should trip out before it gets to that point to prevent these sorts of situations but imagine during a heatwave in Texas/California without this regulation and suddenly the voltage drops into the high 90s low 100s for a couple of hours due to high load?

HVAC compressor manufacturers will be rubbing their hands together with the amount of compressor orders they are about to recieve!!

 

[Shrek]

I didn't mean to suggest that one should not regulate, just to point out a possible consequence.

 

[chrcoluk]

Half of the thread is about this already, so it should be renamed to "UPS battery swap, followed by mains voltage variations".

I can stop providing updates if you want, I did so under Bill's request, I dont think I can be bothered to make a new thread on it. On the original subject battery drain time seems good now (now much better than the original one's ever were, so glad to have now done the swap), ironically put to test with the power issues.

If the national grid were to tell me they have tested everything in spec then thats fine, but yesterday I got told they confirmed the problem and they working on it. So its a waiting game.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I can stop providing updates if you want, I did so under Bill's request, I dont think I can be bothered to make a new thread on it.

YOU are the OP. YOU have a big say in the direction or directions YOUR thread goes. If you were not still participating because it was driven OT, that would be different. But it seems you have at least one hand on the steering wheel too! And IMO, that's just fine - a good thing even.

 

[Waldorf]

@Shrek
there are still big differences between agm and agm.
the "basic" ones, usually sold as the top-of-the-line battery in part shops, are safer (no leak if exposed during accident),
more resistant (vibration), dont gas out under charge, dont need fluids replaced over time, and can better to handle start-stop engines, than "normal" lead batteries.
but they still cant handle deep cycling like most marine/deep cycle agms, and most companies will not cover any damage thru deep cycling on regular agms.

i swapped for agm for car audio in the mid 90s, but lately because they were just 20$ more than a stock battery for my "import",
or if its a hard place to get to (under passenger seat), as they tend to last longer (+5y) without a noticeable drop in perf, until they finally go out (no bang ).

 

[Bill_Bright]

We are talking about UPS batteries. Regardless if AGM or standard, I am about 99.99% sure all UPS designed for the home or office use SLA - as in "sealed" - batteries. Thus, unless physically damaged, they don't leak and so the fluids cannot be "topped off" or replaced.

Why sealed? For one, so users don't have to worry about checking fluid levels and topping off. For another, when sealed, there is no worry about fumes or leaking battery acids. And third, being sealed the cells can be (and frequently are) physically oriented in any position inside the UPS case.

I have a couple UPS here where the cells lay on their side. The UPS supporting this computer uses two cell, one sits top up, the other sits top down. No leaks anywhere.

 

[Waldorf]

well shrek was talking about car, so..

ignoring for a moment that enough of those SLA are identical to some of the sealed agms used for small sport/bike/toy stuff,
and can be had at most car/marine/bike part shops, if someone doesnt want to wait to get one shipped.

now i remember, those SLA were also used in my RC boat in the early 80s.
hated them. day of charging, for just +10 min of fun

 

[Bill_Bright]

As for identical batteries, all I am saying is over the years, I have peeled the labels off of batteries that came in UPS from several different UPS makers only to find one of these.

 

[chrcoluk]

In about a week they installing a local voltage reader to verify what is happening in the property itself, it will be next to my meter, I assume they will have to briefly cut power. Then a week later to remove it.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Voltage is measured in parallel to the circuit so they may not need to cut power.

 

[chrcoluk]

They fitted the voltage meter now (much earlier today).

Power had to be cut, after about 15 minutes chatting and waiting, I went to PC as realised it was a fair amount of time on battery, and the UPS was reporting 100% battery, so something glitchy there (and this was on front panel), since the actual battery was unknown I put it in hibernation sharpish. But since the UPS thinks it never drained I think it also means whatever was drained also didnt recharge afterwards.

They will be back on Tuesday to collect it.

--

Well this is annoying, I ran a test, and the run time still doesnt go down and battery stays at 100%, with no mains power, I havent seen anyone else report this kind of issue when googling it. I will post a screenshot here, but this I am observing on the front panel as well. The front panel comes on when on battery, and reports 100% and matching runtime (runtime still moves with load fluctuations). Later when PC is off I will put the smart plug back in so I can check on that if after I kill the battery it is recharging the battery.

 

[Shrek]

Input voltage 185V ?

 

[chrcoluk]

Rescaled the min/max for you shrek.

 

[chrcoluk]

I tested if the wattage increases after battery use (indicating recharge) and it seems to still be charging the battery after the battery is used. I guess will have to at some point though, do a reset on the unit to fix the reported battery charge.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I tested if the wattage increases after battery use (indicating recharge)

No necessarily. Depends on the depth of discharge, among other things.

I don't know but from here, it seems you are letting your knickers get tied up in a knot over something that just is not an issue to worry about. Your bottom screenshot above shows you have a 153W load and still have 45 minutes of runtime left. For comparison, my APC 1500VA UPS on this system is currently showing 116W load and an estimated 46 minutes of runtime left. And I'm happy with that.

 

[chrcoluk]

No necessarily. Depends on the depth of discharge, among other things.

I don't know but from here, it seems you are letting your knickers get tied up in a knot over something that just is not an issue to worry about. Your bottom screenshot above shows you have a 153W load and still have 45 minutes of runtime left. For comparison, my APC 1500VA UPS on this system is currently showing 116W load and an estimated 46 minutes of runtime left. And I'm happy with that.

Not sure if you understand what I am reporting, the UPS is no longer reporting the battery level dropping when its being used, this has an obvious impact none of my stuff will auto shutdown/hibernate and I no longer have an idea how much charge is left on the battery.

So basically it will just stay at 100% forever (and max runtime reported) until it just shuts off with no juice left.

As much as I would love to believe that after 15 minutes on battery with the PC running I still had circa 45-50 mins runtime and 100% battery charge, I doubt it managed to power it that long with no drain.

 

[Bill_Bright]

As I recommended over a month ago back in post #7, I recommend you use the UPS maker's software, in this case PowerPanel Personal for Windows as found here under the Software & Utility tab. I would also verify readings with the front panel LCD panel of your UPS.

 

[chrcoluk]

Its on the front panel as well, this isnt anything to do with win nut.

It was actually the front panel that made me notice it, as its always on when running on battery. Walked in with it showing no drain and 45-50 runtime when the power had been turned off for 15-20 mins.

 

[chrcoluk]

Update, voltage meter went out this morning, and they sent this.

I have decided to ignore the battery 100% thing, at least for now. Cant be bothered worrying about it. The UPS is switching correctly.