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bill gates and warren buffet building nuclear reactor in Wyoming

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I think main thing to keep in mind here is this is just a good first step. Proof of concept to see if waste nuclear material can be re-used efficiently enough to make the argument for nuclear again. That is the main goal of this (I think), once it is proven than governments of the world can scale it (I don't mean in size of reactor, I just mean more small reactors in non-wind non-solar geographical locations that need 24/7 energy). Getting rid of that waste was the main issue.
 
I just want to point out the fact anyone can install a wind powered generator or solar power unit on their own property, but portable, personal nuclear is not possible.
Sure, but I'm talking about power plants that power whole cities. Nuclear is perfect for that.
 
Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen..you all know the rules :rolleyes:

Thread cleansed
 
if the Yellowstone Super Volcano goes, you are looking at probably half the worlds population dying. so let's just hope that doesn't happen ye?
No, unless you meant your half (pacific rim) of the world? And yeah that geyser is one hell of a, you know :D
 
plus wyoming doesn't get earthquakes and tsunami's to my knowledge, so all should be good.
I’m pretty sure there have been quite a few quakes in Wyoming the past few years. Their increasing frequency is part of what alarms a number of volcanologists about Yellowstone.

Edit: I checked and this is a little synopsis.
There are 1,516 earthquake incidents in Wyoming on record since 1931. The state averages 18 earthquakes per year. The largest earthquake on record for Wyoming occurred on 02/03/1994, with a depth of 3.8 miles and a magnitude of 5.6 on the Richter scale in Lincoln County, WY.
 
I’m pretty sure there have been quite a few quakes in Wyoming the past few years. Their increasing frequency is part of what alarms a number of volcanologists about Yellowstone.

Edit: I checked and this is a little synopsis.
There are 1,516 earthquake incidents in Wyoming on record since 1931. The state averages 18 earthquakes per year. The largest earthquake on record for Wyoming occurred on 02/03/1994, with a depth of 3.8 miles and a magnitude of 5.6 on the Richter scale in Lincoln County, WY.

hmm, would be interesting to hear Warren Buffet/Bill Gates response as to the choice of location.
 
It's simply insane to me the FUD and double standard that some Westerners believe. In Japan, I can understand those sentiments given the lasting impact of the Tohoku earthquake and it is politically suicidal not to tread carefully after 2011 - but we're not in Japan.

People saw Chernobyl...... and concluded that Soviet BWRs are bad, Soviet politics was bad, and mismanagement was bad. All a reasonable reaction.
People saw Fukushima I/II...... and concluded that nuclear power is bad. :wtf: the human factor wasn't as different as some people think.

Onagawa: The Japanese nuclear power plant that didn’t melt down on 3/11 - Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists (thebulletin.org)
Learning from non-failure of Onagawa nuclear power station: an accident investigation over its life cycle - ScienceDirect
IAEA Expert Team Concludes Mission to Onagawa NPP | IAEA

I try not to sound too enthusiastic about something that was still making the best of a bad situation, especially when reliable and objective English-language sources on it are scarce. There's a lot of safety measures and upgrades needed even at Onagawa, but some politicians are already trying to jump the gun to get it restarted before then.



I get that there needs to be incentive again to jumpstart nuclear again, but you say that like "regulation in moderation" is a good thing. The stakes are too high to allow for anything less than the strictest oversight, I thought history was clear.

The stakes are not nearly as high as the public has been scared to believe. You can count the publicized failures on one hand, but you'd need a spreadsheet to keep track of the operational life cycles of all the reactors that performed perfectly without an issue. If we're talking human cost look at how many people in a 100 year scale have suffered from the effects of coal, oil, and gas accidents. It's a deadly field of work with second hand deadly emissions. Any time nuclear is mentioned the pearl clutching begins and another bill gets signed forcing even more strict red tape that other industries with worse safety records simply don't have to deal with. Shit dude how many millions of barrels of crude dumped into the oceans in the last 20 years versus how many ecologically destructive nuclear failures happened. Like seriously there's clearly some regulatory imbalance happening if we're going to clutch pearls and point at how destructive any particular energy source can potentially be.

Do not misinterpret my words here. Nuclear, as with anything inherently risky, needs to be regulated to certain standards of operable safety and reliability. However the regulations applied to nuclear vastly stifle any possibility of sustainability, and are in place not to just make nuclear simply a safe option but to make it an entirely unattractive option. It's costly not because it's inherently more unsafe than other energy sources, but because it's been regulated beyond being viable. Hence how we end up with geriatric billionaires being the only ones capable of funding development in the field at this point...
 
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Low quality post by TumbleGeorge
but because it's been regulated beyond being viable. Hence how we end up with geriatric billionaires being the only ones capable of funding development in the field at this point
You could very well argue without the "stifling" regulations you end up with ~
Or more recently ~
If the corporations are allowed to have their way they will skip on a lot of safety measures, even if they're over the top. It's always better to be safe than sorry, especially when dealing with nuclei at an atomic scale.
 
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You could every well argue without the "stifling" regulations you end up with ~
Or more recently ~
If the corporations are allowed to have their way they will skip on a lot of safety measure, even if they're over the top. It's always better to be safe than sorry, especially when dealing with nuclei at an atomic scale.

Ah yes two of the three horseman of "what about" nuclear regulatory hell. The same tired talking points that have destroyed development in the field despite the hundreds of perfectly functional reactors and facilities globally, many which operate or operated during the very same time spans. If you want to argue for safety regulation in the energy sector you're pointing the gun at the wrong target. Nuclear is well and properly regulated. Speaking of disasters, here's a fun graphic to end on...

1622787735417.png


Keep enjoying that fish...
 
So you're saying none of these disasters happened due to sometimes lacking (safety) regulations or corporate greed? They aren't mutually exclusive btw.
 
So you're saying none of these disasters happened due to sometimes lacking (safety) regulations or corporate greed? They aren't mutually exclusive btw.

I said what I said and nothing more take your "so you're saying" counters and keep them to yourself, thank you very much. I refuse to engage with somebody who can't stick to the argument without swinging at words that weren't said. I'm not for shadow boxing, leave that in the gym. If you'd like to dissect the circumstances of the three, count them, three civilian nuclear disasters of the past 50 years there is lots of public information on them. Just do not forget to keep your scope wide and compare to the competition's impact with the disasters they've caused. The regulations placed on nuclear energy simply for existing far outstrip any other source of energy with greater impacts to the planet and its inhabitants. If we were to assess risk evenly then it would be easier to develop nuclear to phase out dirtier, more destructive energy industries.


I'm out of words for this thread as I've repeated myself three times now.
 
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Hey you're the one who brough up other "disasters" so if you can't stick to your guns you should indeed sign off & disengage. Ciao :rolleyes:
 
My friend's a principal engineer for a global company. We discuss a lot of technical parameters and just last week spoke of 'process' as a factor in safety.

As far as nuclear is concerned, you do need regulations in place. I know thats anathema to some but it's essential for that industry. Nuclear done well is safe. Cut corners, or have systems that don't allow critical human feedback (Chernobyl) and it's not so rosy.
 
Yeah & just to give you a hint ~

Eager to establish its credibility as an American ally, the Indian government largely copied an annex of the convention into a draft law. However, it could not negate the historical context: an estimated 15,000 people have died in Bhopal as a result of poisoning by methyl isocyanate, a chemical that escaped from a plant run by a subsidiary of the American company Union Carbide in 1984. The accident clearly resulted from corporate negligence, and there is considerable anger in India that top executives — including the C.E.O. of Union Carbide at the time of the Bhopal disaster, Warren Anderson, who lives openly in the United States despite having been declared an “absconder” by Indian courts —have never been brought to book.

The effect of the Indian government’s proposal for the nuclear liability law was to override the “absolute liability” principle laid down by the Indian Supreme Court after the Bhopal disaster. Under this principle, both the operator and supplier would have been jointly liable, with no cap on their liability. Instead, the government wanted to indemnify the supplier and transfer responsibility for an accident onto the public-sector Nuclear Power Corporation. This would have led to a situation where Indian victims and taxpayers were entirely liable for an accident, with no way of holding the supplier to account.

The final Indian law does cap the Nuclear Power Corporation’s liability at about $250 million. However, even though the government went to farcical lengths to prevent this, the law also contains a small clause that allows the public-sector company a “right of recourse,” which it can use to reclaim some of this money from the supplier if the accident was caused by a design defect.

Taken at face value, this clause does not seem significant and it is not clear why Westinghouse and G.E. are unwilling to sell reactors to India. After all, the maximum exposure is only $250 million — a tiny fraction of the multibillion price tags for each reactor. However, suppliers are probably worried about the consequences of opening the door to supplier liability by even an inch.

For instance, a future government may simply ignore the liability cap and demand that the supplier pay up a much larger figure in the event of an accident. This is precisely what the Obama administration did to BP, forcing it to pay compensation well in excess of the liability cap of $75 million for the Deepwater Horizon disaster.


Furthermore, the Indian law sets a precedent. Other countries may decide to follow suit, and this could undermine an international liability system that has been carefully crafted by Western governments to protect their companies.
Just as a frame of reference you know the number of people who died at Bhopal? It's anywhere between at least 100-1000x than the BP oil spill, the real number will never be known! You know what Union Carbide paid? I know it's not right to compare tragedies but the scale of disaster at Bhopal & commensurate compensation wasn't even peanuts wrt BP payout!

The scale of disaster which nuclear power can unleash is unreal & no amount of capping limited liability on the nuclear (power) provider will suffice! As far as I'm concerned, personally I wouldn't mind such companies going bankrupt over the disasters they caused!
 
hmm, would be interesting to hear Warren Buffet/Bill Gates response as to the choice of location.
I too would like to hear their response. However, 5.6 is not huge and that was also many years ago. Most are smaller and unless one is monitoring readings, most people never even realize it. I just wanted to point out it’s not a risk-free zone. Personally, i’m not opposed to more new nuclear plants.
 
Nuclear is indeed the answer. It's been staring at us in the face for decades, yet the green lobby keep banging on about wind power and other useless technology. :rolleyes: Makes one wonder if they're really on the side of the environment, or if there's a secret agenda.
I know it’s too late, but the arguments I’ve heard against nuclear from the left are basically that it takes too long (in terms of climate change) and costs too much, not so much that it’s bad, although there are concerns about waste and it’s development going towards weapons, but that’s another story.
 
I know it’s too late, but the arguments I’ve heard against nuclear from the left are basically that it takes too long (in terms of climate change) and costs too much, not so much that it’s bad, although there are concerns about waste and it’s development going towards weapons, but that’s another story.

just fyi the power plants from bill gates are a bit different, there will be one normal but updated power plant nuclear, then a smaller plant that is designed to re-use the nuclear radioactive waste from the bigger power plant.

there ends up being no waste at all this way and no radioactive stuff needs stored. its quite genius from what i understand about it. bill gates and warren buffet seem fairly confident in it anyway

(im not an expert in this stuff, so some of that info may be wrong, but thats how i understand it)
 
The only reason any of those things are true (cost, time to build) is because we've made it that way. In terms of climate change, we might be slow but far from late. But it really is the only current option for a high-energy society. And energy usage is directly tied to quality of life. Low energy is a quicker death, to put it succinctly.

I highly recommend reading Mike Shellenberger's book Apocalypse Never, and checking out his website.

 
The only reason any of those things are true (cost, time to build) is because we've made it that way. In terms of climate change, we might be slow but far from late. But it really is the only current option for a high-energy society. And energy usage is directly tied to quality of life. Low energy is a quicker death, to put it succinctly.

I highly recommend reading Mike Shellenberger's book Apocalypse Never, and checking out his website.


thanks for sharing I will give it a look, personally I think there are so many variables against us that we are just wasting our finite resources at to rapid a pace, for example, even driving across my town the other day and seeing the new buildings they are building... like the wood they use is so cheap... it won't last very long at all against even medium level tornadoes. its just a constant waste/rebuild game with insurance companies and contractors going as cheap as they can for max profits.

we are just wasteful beyond belief in almost every category across the board, its simply not sustainable, and we won't change our ways until "shortages" hit the headlines, and no i don't mean shortages like today, i mean literally the company who sources the good usable silicon sand says oh hey, we overestimated our supply... lol

RIP
 
There's a lot to unpack there. Basically, the developed world is wasteful because we can afford to be. Things are plentiful. Not so much for the developing world. They live in scarcity. That's what we should be focusing on, and there's a lot of good and bad solutions out there. Mostly what's been done has not helped them.

Wood is renewable. We can farm it. Yes, stick-built homes are not efficient uses of wood and the practice goes back a couple hundred years. Manufactured homes make a lot more sense but goes against tradition and there's a stigma around them as cheaply built, but it doesn't have to be. Look up ebay cabins or barndominums for all sorts of cool ideas. Only real solution to tornado damage is to basically live underground or don't live near tornado areas. Pretty much every geographical area has its own challenges from a climate or geology standpoint (e.g. earthquake). Shellenberger has a good page on how fewer people die from natural disasters and how good we are at adapting to them in his climate section.

Just because humanity is wasteful doesn't mean it isn't sustainable. We should get more efficient with how we use our land, and that comes with increased energy usage. Want to lessen deforestation as developing countries are still burning wood and charcoal for cooking, and dying of indoor air pollution? Get them on propane. Want to lessen land usage for ag? Get people off of manual labor farming and get them a tractor and fertilizer. We already grow food for 10 billion people. It's more a matter of getting it where it needs to go, and growing it on fewer acres.

What's going on in the chip space is weird. We're not running out of sand.....that's one of the most plentiful things on earth!
 
The main force behind this natrium reactor is that it can respond to renewables. The liquid sodium acts as a thermal battery so the electric generation loop can be hours divorced from thermal (reactor) loop. At night, it can put 100% of thermal capacity into the electric loop. If wind picks up, that number drops. If the sun starts rising and there's too much solar in the grid, some of the electricity may be used to heat the sodium (instead of nuclear) to be expended later. Molten sodium reactors are industrial thermal batteries in addition to being nuclear power plants. That's what makes this design so attractive, even though it can't hold a light to boiling water reactors in terms of pure electric generation (often have nameplate generation capacity 3x higher).

The really exciting thing about these reactors is that they can replace natural gas in the grid. It has similar performance/capability as gas turbines but without the emissions and market pricing risks.


just fyi the power plants from bill gates are a bit different, there will be one normal but updated power plant nuclear, then a smaller plant that is designed to re-use the nuclear radioactive waste from the bigger power plant.

there ends up being no waste at all this way and no radioactive stuff needs stored. its quite genius from what i understand about it. bill gates and warren buffet seem fairly confident in it anyway

(im not an expert in this stuff, so some of that info may be wrong, but thats how i understand it)
Fast breeder reactor. The problem with breeders is that nobody trusts anybody with them because they can weaponize uranium. They need to be among the most secure facilities in the world.
 
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Fast breeder reactor. The problem with breeders is that nobody trusts anybody with them because they can weaponize uranium. They need to be among the most secure facilities in the world.

I've read actually there is shortage of really highly enriched and pure uranium in US. The space industry complained about that as they need small reactors for future missions too.
 
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