• Welcome to TechPowerUp Forums, Guest! Please check out our forum guidelines for info related to our community.

China Develops Domestic EUV Tool, ASML Monopoly in Trouble

AleksandarK

News Editor
Staff member
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
2,849 (1.03/day)
China's domestic extreme ultraviolet (EUV) lithography development is far from a distant dream. The newest system, now undergoing testing at Huawei's Dongguan facility, leverages laser-induced discharge plasma (LDP) technology, representing a potentially disruptive approach to EUV light generation. The system is scheduled for trial production in Q3 2025, with mass manufacturing targeted for 2026, potentially positioning China to break ASML's technical monopoly in advanced lithography. The LDP approach employed in the Chinese system generates 13.5 nm EUV radiation by vaporizing tin between electrodes and converting it to plasma via high-voltage discharge, where electron-ion collisions produce the required wavelength. This methodology offers several technical advantages over ASML's laser-produced plasma (LPP) technique, including simplified architecture, reduced footprint, improved energy efficiency, and potentially lower production costs.

The LPP method relies on high-energy lasers and complex FPGA-based real-time control electronics to achieve the same result. While ASML has refined its LPP-based systems over decades, the inherent efficiency advantages of the LDP approach could accelerate China's catch-up timeline in this critical semiconductor manufacturing technology. When the US imposed sanctions on EUV shipments to Chinese companies, the Chinese semiconductor development was basically limited as standard deep ultraviolet (DUV) wave lithography systems utilize 248 nm (KrF) and 193 nm (ArF) wavelengths for semiconductor patterning, with 193 nm immersion technology representing the most advanced pre-EUV production technique. These longer wavelengths contrast with EUV's 13.5 nm radiation, requiring multiple patterning techniques to achieve advanced nodes.




However, this Huawei system must still answer questions about resolution capabilities, throughput stability, and integration with existing semiconductor manufacturing flows. However, commercializing an alternative EUV lithography tool will challenge ASML's position. ASML's latest High-NA EUV tool costs around 380 million US Dollars. No matter the cost for Chinese R&D centers, the Huawei EUV machine will deliver the much-needed upgrade path for the older DUV scanners, which previously limited domestic chip production. Despite China's development of solid IP, its manufacturing progress was limited, but it could experience a "DeepSeek" moment very soon. Leading fabs like SMIC are working with Huawei to integrate the EUV scanners into existing workflows. A solid semiconductor manufacturing workflow takes years to build, so we have to see what the final result will be.

View at TechPowerUp Main Site | Source
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2009
Messages
1,058 (0.18/day)
Location
Romania
Processor i7-9700
Motherboard Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO
Memory 32GB DDR4
Video Card(s) msi 1080
Storage Samsung SSD 850 pro 2TB+1tb hdd 7200rpm+ 1tb 970pro
Software Mageia 6 + Windows 10
I will believe when I will see it, too many 'we will do that big thing in future' and almost zero real results, in past, from this country/regime. Although we need competition.
 
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
144 (0.09/day)
Nah I would never buy the Chinese one. Too many back doors like all the devices here in our country. AKA the dumbest country in the history of humanity. Nice job building up your enemy for cash. I would trust me 2 ex wives to tell me the truth that them I'll tell ya. Enjoy your backdoors you all.
 
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
3,636 (0.57/day)
Location
Terra
System Name :)
Processor Intel 13700k
Motherboard Gigabyte z790 UD AC
Cooling Noctua NH-D15
Memory 64GB GSKILL DDR5
Video Card(s) Gigabyte RTX 4090 Gaming OC
Storage 960GB Optane 905P U.2 SSD + 4TB PCIe4 U.2 SSD
Display(s) Alienware AW3423DW 175Hz QD-OLED + AOC Agon Pro AG276QZD2 240Hz QD-OLED
Case Fractal Design Torrent
Audio Device(s) MOTU M4 - JBL 305P MKII w/2x JL Audio 10 Sealed --- X-Fi Titanium HD - Presonus Eris E5 - JBL 4412
Power Supply Silverstone 1000W
Mouse Roccat Kain 122 AIMO
Keyboard KBD67 Lite / Mammoth75
VR HMD Reverb G2 V2
Software Win 11 Pro
It's ironic that all the sanctions put to china actually pushed china to chase their own tech.
define "their own" :laugh:
 
Joined
Sep 6, 2013
Messages
3,633 (0.86/day)
Location
Athens, Greece
System Name 3 desktop systems: Gaming / Internet / HTPC
Processor Ryzen 5 7600 / Ryzen 5 4600G / Ryzen 5 5500
Motherboard X670E Gaming Plus WiFi / MSI X470 Gaming Plus Max (1) / MSI X470 Gaming Plus Max (2)
Cooling Aigo ICE 400SE / Segotep T4 / Îťoctua U12S
Memory Kingston FURY Beast 32GB DDR5 6000 / 16GB JUHOR / 32GB G.Skill RIPJAWS 3600 + Aegis 3200
Video Card(s) ASRock RX 6600 / Vega 7 integrated / Radeon RX 580
Storage NVMes, ONLY NVMes / NVMes, SATA Storage / NVMe, SATA, external storage
Display(s) Philips 43PUS8857/12 UHD TV (120Hz, HDR, FreeSync Premium) / 19'' HP monitor + BlitzWolf BW-V5
Case Sharkoon Rebel 12 / CoolerMaster Elite 361 / Xigmatek Midguard
Audio Device(s) onboard
Power Supply Chieftec 850W / Silver Power 400W / Sharkoon 650W
Mouse CoolerMaster Devastator III Plus / CoolerMaster Devastator / Logitech
Keyboard CoolerMaster Devastator III Plus / CoolerMaster Devastator / Logitech
Software Windows 10 / Windows 10&Windows 11 / Windows 10
I will believe when I will see it, too many 'we will do that big thing in future' and almost zero real results, in past, from this country/regime. Although we need competition.
Chinese are more often words than results, but Huawei is not a joke. If Huawei is behind it, it's probably closer to reality than just an empty press release.

About competition. I doubt the Chinese will sell it abroad. If it works and if it offers advantages over ASML's machines, they will probably keep it in China and forbid selling it out of China. Except if US starts lifting it's bans, that I doubt it will happen any time soon.
 
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
Messages
2,231 (0.43/day)
define "their own" :laugh:

Well enough to at some point being equivalent or even better then western tech.

and then what? Sanctions won't help when they are capable of designing their own CPU's and GPU's at this point for heavy AI work.

That's what this race is all about.
 
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
3,486 (1.70/day)
System Name Still not a thread ripper but pretty good.
Processor Ryzen 9 7950x, Thermal Grizzly AM5 Offset Mounting Kit, Thermal Grizzly Extreme Paste
Motherboard ASRock B650 LiveMixer (BIOS/UEFI version P3.08, AGESA 1.2.0.2)
Cooling EK-Quantum Velocity, EK-Quantum Reflection PC-O11, D5 PWM, EK-CoolStream PE 360, XSPC TX360
Memory Micron DDR5-5600 ECC Unbuffered Memory (2 sticks, 64GB, MTC20C2085S1EC56BD1) + JONSBO NF-1
Video Card(s) XFX Radeon RX 5700 & EK-Quantum Vector Radeon RX 5700 +XT & Backplate
Storage Samsung 4TB 980 PRO, 2 x Optane 905p 1.5TB (striped), AMD Radeon RAMDisk
Display(s) 2 x 4K LG 27UL600-W (and HUANUO Dual Monitor Mount)
Case Lian Li PC-O11 Dynamic Black (original model)
Audio Device(s) Corsair Commander Pro for Fans, RGB, & Temp Sensors (x4)
Power Supply Corsair RM750x
Mouse Logitech M575
Keyboard Corsair Strafe RGB MK.2
Software Windows 10 Professional (64bit)
Benchmark Scores RIP Ryzen 9 5950x, ASRock X570 Taichi (v1.06), 128GB Micron DDR4-3200 ECC UDIMM (18ASF4G72AZ-3G2F1)
define "their own" :laugh:
China in 10 years - "All your lithography are belong to us!" ...but to steer back on topic this isn't surprising but kind of surprising at the same time. China is and has been constantly trying to improve it's technological position and not be limited by external sources. The question for the moment is how will markets react?
 
Joined
Oct 6, 2021
Messages
1,789 (1.43/day)
System Name Raspberry Pi 7 Quantum @ Overclocked.
Is it fair to say that this is nothing more than Chinese propaganda?
Or... perhaps the result of hard, honest work for the greater good of humanity, and nothing more, right?
ASML: Dutch chip firm says former China employee stole data | CNN Business

sherlock holmes GIF
 
Joined
Sep 9, 2017
Messages
267 (0.10/day)
System Name B20221017 Pro SP1 R2 Gaming Edition
Processor AMD Ryzen 7900X3D
Motherboard Asus ProArt X670E-Creator
Cooling NZXT Kraken Z73
Memory G.Skill Trident Z DDR5-6000 CL30 64GB
Video Card(s) NVIDIA RTX 3090 Founders Edition
Storage Samsung 980 Pro 2TB + Samsung 870 Evo 4TB
Display(s) Samsung CF791 Curved Ultrawide
Case NZXT H7 Flow
Power Supply Corsair HX1000i
VR HMD Meta Quest 3
Software Windows 11
Nah I would never buy the Chinese one. Too many back doors like all the devices here in our country. AKA the dumbest country in the history of humanity. Nice job building up your enemy for cash. I would trust me 2 ex wives to tell me the truth that them I'll tell ya. Enjoy your backdoors you all.

It's an EUV machine. That's like saying you don't trust a Chinese microwave because it has back doors. :kookoo:
 
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
6,220 (0.85/day)
Location
Ikenai borderline!
System Name Firelance.
Processor Threadripper 3960X
Motherboard ROG Strix TRX40-E Gaming
Cooling IceGem 360 + 6x Arctic Cooling P12
Memory 8x 16GB Patriot Viper DDR4-3200 CL16
Video Card(s) MSI GeForce RTX 4060 Ti Ventus 2X OC
Storage 2TB WD SN850X (boot), 4TB Crucial P3 (data)
Display(s) Dell S3221QS(A) (32" 38x21 60Hz) + 2x AOC Q32E2N (32" 25x14 75Hz)
Case Enthoo Pro II Server Edition (Closed Panel) + 6 fans
Power Supply Fractal Design Ion+ 2 Platinum 760W
Mouse Logitech G604
Keyboard Razer Pro Type Ultra
Software Windows 10 Professional x64
As usual, we have the standard anti-PRC brigade to claim they're just lying and it will never happen. Does the PRC lie? Yes. The thing is,the PRC lies about how much progress it makes - _but it eventually makes that progress_.

That's what has been said about literally every technological advance that the PRC has made that was supposedly impossible for them. The West's casual bigotry is what is allowing the PRC to eat it piece by piece.

It's ironic that all the sanctions put to china actually pushed china to chase their own tech.
Bingo. Globalism prevents war because it creates interdependence... when you remove that interdependence, you remove the safeguards against war.

It's an EUV machine. That's like saying you don't trust a Chinese microwave because it has back doors. :kookoo:
Ignore the anti-PRC shills, they are really just the most braindead of bigots with zero critical thinking facilities.
 
Joined
Dec 25, 2020
Messages
7,846 (5.11/day)
Location
SĂŁo Paulo, Brazil
System Name "Icy Resurrection"
Processor 13th Gen Intel Core i9-13900KS
Motherboard ASUS ROG Maximus Z790 Apex Encore
Cooling Noctua NH-D15S upgraded with 2x NF-F12 iPPC-3000 fans and Honeywell PTM7950 TIM
Memory 32 GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB F5-6800J3445G16GX2-TZ5RK @ 7600 MT/s 36-44-44-52-96 1.4V
Video Card(s) NVIDIA RTX A2000
Storage 500 GB WD Black SN750 SE NVMe SSD + 4 TB WD Red Plus WD40EFPX HDD
Display(s) 55-inch LG G3 OLED
Case Pichau Mancer CV500 White Edition
Audio Device(s) Sony MDR-V7 connected through Apple USB-C
Power Supply EVGA 1300 G2 1.3kW 80+ Gold
Mouse Microsoft Classic IntelliMouse (2017)
Keyboard IBM Model M type 1391405
Software Windows 10 Pro 22H2
Benchmark Scores I pulled a Qiqi~
It's ironic that all the sanctions put to china actually pushed china to chase their own tech.

It's not, I've repeatedly stated in the past this was gonna happen and summarily dismissed, sanction them hard enough and it's only a matter of time until their technology advancements branch out and - eventually - leapfrog the West's. I have a lot more to talk about this, but it's all political and none of it very nice, so I'm giving it a pass - looks like @Assimilator covered the basics of it anyway.
 
Joined
Jul 4, 2018
Messages
128 (0.05/day)
Location
Seattle area, Wa
System Name Not pretty
Processor Ryzen 9 9950x
Motherboard Crosshair X870E
Cooling 420mm Arctic LF III, for now
Memory 64GB, DDR5-6000 cl30, G.Skill
Video Card(s) EVGA FTW3 RTX 3080ti
Storage 1TB Samsung 980 Pro (Win10), 2TB WD SN850X (Win11)
Display(s) old 27" Viewsonic 1080p, Asus 1080p, Viewsonic 4k
Case Corsair Obsidian 900D
Power Supply Super Flower
Benchmark Scores Cinebench r15, w/ 1680v2 @ 4.6ghz and XMP enabled, 1648 1680v2 @ 4.7ghz RAM @ stock 1333MT/s, 1696
Well, we'll have to see if this is another case of China overpromising and underperforming. They remind me of these three companies that we all know of
 
Joined
Feb 15, 2019
Messages
1,711 (0.77/day)
System Name Personal Gaming Rig
Processor Ryzen 7800X3D
Motherboard MSI X670E Carbon
Cooling MO-RA 3 420
Memory 32GB 6000MHz
Video Card(s) RTX 4090 ICHILL FROSTBITE ULTRA
Storage 4x 2TB Nvme
Display(s) Samsung G8 OLED
Case Silverstone FT04
So this time there is no "84 year old grandma handmade computer chip" ?
 

freeagent

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Messages
10,021 (4.24/day)
Location
Winnipeg, Canada
Processor AMD R9 9900X
Motherboard Asus Strix X670E-F
Cooling Thermalright Aqua Elite 360 V3, 6x TL-B12 V2
Memory 2x16GB Lexar Ares @ 6000 30-36-36-68 1.35v
Video Card(s) Zotac 4070 Ti Trinity OC @ 3045/1500
Storage WD SN850 1TB, SN850X 2TB, 3x SN770 1TB
Display(s) LG 50UP7100
Case Asus ProArt PA602
Audio Device(s) JBL Bar 700
Power Supply Seasonic Vertex GX-1000, Monster HDP1800
Mouse Logitech G502 Hero
Keyboard Logitech G213
VR HMD Oculus 3
Software Yes
Benchmark Scores Yes
The cool thing about all of this is that they can run it themselves, they don't need the cooperation of like 6 countries to make it work.
 
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
1,879 (0.33/day)
Location
Latvia
System Name Personal \\ Work - HP EliteBook 840 G6
Processor 7700X \\ i7-8565U
Motherboard Asrock X670E PG Lightning
Cooling Noctua DH-15
Memory G.SKILL Trident Z5 RGB Black 32GB 6000MHz CL36 \\ 16GB DDR4-2400
Video Card(s) ASUS RoG Strix 1070 Ti \\ Intel UHD Graphics 620
Storage 2x KC3000 2TB, Samsung 970 EVO 512GB \\ OEM 256GB NVMe SSD
Display(s) BenQ XL2411Z \\ FullHD + 2x HP Z24i external screens via docking station
Case Fractal Design Define Arc Midi R2 with window
Audio Device(s) Realtek ALC1150 with Logitech Z533
Power Supply Corsair AX860i
Mouse Logitech G502
Keyboard Corsair K55 RGB PRO
Software Windows 11 \\ Windows 10
It's only a question of time before they fully catch up.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
1,523 (0.29/day)
Location
[Formerly] Khartoum, Sudan.
System Name 192.168.1.1~192.168.1.100
Processor AMD Ryzen5 5600G.
Motherboard Gigabyte B550m DS3H.
Cooling AMD Wraith Stealth.
Memory 16GB Crucial DDR4.
Video Card(s) Gigabyte GTX 1080 OC (Underclocked, underpowered).
Storage Samsung 980 NVME 500GB && Assortment of SSDs.
Display(s) ViewSonic VA2406-MH 75Hz
Case Bitfenix Nova Midi
Audio Device(s) On-Board.
Power Supply SeaSonic CORE GM-650.
Mouse Logitech G300s
Keyboard Kingston HyperX Alloy FPS.
VR HMD A pair of OP spectacles.
Software Ubuntu 24.04 LTS.
Benchmark Scores Me no know English. What bench mean? Bench like one sit on?
Crying about Chinese backdoors when, merely a few weeks ago, security for an entire country (continent? world?) was compromised because some of the "good" governments were demanding backdoors, is amusing...

Anyways, to reiterate what I said in a previous, related news thread: This is what some of y'all look like rn:
IMG_0887.jpeg
 
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
2,963 (0.58/day)
Time to do a little reading, and maybe draw some conclusions.

December 2023, Huawei "breaks the 5nm barrier"
Note that the article calls out using triple or quadruple patterning. No notation on those 5 nm chips taking twice as long to produce...but whatever.
DUV used to produce 5nm chips...with the predictable errors and slag produced due to compounding errors
So...on paper claiming 5nm chips, but using old tech with much increased production time and increased errors.
2022 patent for the tech...
Paper mills, the ban on further DUV machines, and research quality


Do I believe that China will "catch-up" to the west? No. Do I believe that they will develop some sort of lithographic tech they claim to be 5 nm, do victory laps, and find that the yields and quality of their cutting edge tech are suddenly no as good? Yeah. There is a future where China, by way of the CCP, throw enough cash at developing stuff that something manages to be produced that isn't an absolute dumpster fire. My problem with the CCP is that to make that happen they are going to have to plow 20-30x as many resources into the system to get it to come out. That isn't a guess by the way, it's the base cost, 60% skimmed directly off the top to bribe people, 20% lost on middle-man transactions, 10% lost in inefficiency, and 5% lost to people not giving a crap because the industry is too big to fail and thus getting fired means nothing as long as the numbers can be manipulated.


Do I wish ASML didn't have a monopoly? Yes. Do I believe that the CCP can develop something that competes? No.
High Speed rail. Youtube video for those who hate reading
Tofu Dregs Different source, same outcome. Also a video
C919...in all it's failure. Boeing is not doing better, so don't chalk that up to the west being better. Chalk it up to race to the bottom, cut all other manufacturers out of the market tactics as inherently hostile and idiotic: 1400 claimed ordered, 11 per year finished, and the plan is to add a second factory and get to 150 per year. Gotta love that China only list of operators. C919 failures, airbus replacement. In 2024. The oldest of these planes is two years old.
Of course, for the world's manufacturing hub you'd expect them to move some weapons. Planes...nope Why the J20 is not being sold. Naval assets? Better learn German German diesel engines for Chinese warships and subs. Yeah, Germany supplies a crap ton of Diesel engines...and when you want something that works you obviously go German.

I can spend literal hours going through this and highlighting anything complex and complicated being beyond the CCP...even if they are flush with doctorate level scholars, because the problem is not the resources. The problem is that the CCP uses them badly. That's apparently just "hate for asia" so I guess I'm a racist then. It's not like Vietnam, Taiwan, and other countries exist in Asia. It's not like the CCP is speed running through late stage capitalistic rot, without the supportive morality that prevents it (to some extent, and in a protected version of capitalism). Yeah, that paper from 2022, with a patent that probably was entirely derived from a western education or source, will absolutely make things happen. It'd be the first time in history it ever did, but I've got a good feeling that this isn't another one of the 11,000 companies that failed in 2023.
Tech insight, chip manufacturer failures in 2023
When the CCP dies, and China gets to compete as a truly peer nation, assuming there's anybody left, then the west should fear China. Until that day comes, I treat their claims as substantive as a fart in a windstorm.
 
Joined
May 11, 2018
Messages
1,509 (0.60/day)
I think some people are facing the rude awakening that the China isn't just stealing Western tech and lying about their tech advancements.

Sure, they still do that, but science and technology have for long been a high focus of the country, with huge investments in education and research - something that we can't even pronounce any more. This resulted in China surpassing all other nations in number of scientists, scientific papers, patent applications... In some areas their development has overtaken Western world already, and the only tools we use to combat this is not advancing on our own, but seeking to stop their advancement or at least stop the products coming to the West, with various bans and tariffs - which of course helps lower their revenue, but ultimately this will only deepen the divide in time.

Interconnected West also has it's vulnerabilities in current climate of screwing over allies, but this is purely political - but that doesn't mean it won't have large influence in tech industry.
 
Top