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China Develops Domestic EUV Tool, ASML Monopoly in Trouble

dotjaz

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Time to do a little reading, and maybe draw some conclusions.

December 2023, Huawei "breaks the 5nm barrier"
Note that the article calls out using triple or quadruple patterning. No notation on those 5 nm chips taking twice as long to produce...but whatever.
DUV used to produce 5nm chips...with the predictable errors and slag produced due to compounding errors
So...on paper claiming 5nm chips, but using old tech with much increased production time and increased errors.
2022 patent for the tech...
Paper mills, the ban on further DUV machines, and research quality


Do I believe that China will "catch-up" to the west? No. Do I believe that they will develop some sort of lithographic tech they claim to be 5 nm, do victory laps, and find that the yields and quality of their cutting edge tech are suddenly no as good? Yeah. There is a future where China, by way of the CCP, throw enough cash at developing stuff that something manages to be produced that isn't an absolute dumpster fire. My problem with the CCP is that to make that happen they are going to have to plow 20-30x as many resources into the system to get it to come out. That isn't a guess by the way, it's the base cost, 60% skimmed directly off the top to bribe people, 20% lost on middle-man transactions, 10% lost in inefficiency, and 5% lost to people not giving a crap because the industry is too big to fail and thus getting fired means nothing as long as the numbers can be manipulated.


Do I wish ASML didn't have a monopoly? Yes. Do I believe that the CCP can develop something that competes? No.
High Speed rail. Youtube video for those who hate reading
Tofu Dregs Different source, same outcome. Also a video
C919...in all it's failure. Boeing is not doing better, so don't chalk that up to the west being better. Chalk it up to race to the bottom, cut all other manufacturers out of the market tactics as inherently hostile and idiotic: 1400 claimed ordered, 11 per year finished, and the plan is to add a second factory and get to 150 per year. Gotta love that China only list of operators. C919 failures, airbus replacement. In 2024. The oldest of these planes is two years old.
Of course, for the world's manufacturing hub you'd expect them to move some weapons. Planes...nope Why the J20 is not being sold. Naval assets? Better learn German German diesel engines for Chinese warships and subs. Yeah, Germany supplies a crap ton of Diesel engines...and when you want something that works you obviously go German.

I can spend literal hours going through this and highlighting anything complex and complicated being beyond the CCP...even if they are flush with doctorate level scholars, because the problem is not the resources. The problem is that the CCP uses them badly. That's apparently just "hate for asia" so I guess I'm a racist then. It's not like Vietnam, Taiwan, and other countries exist in Asia. It's not like the CCP is speed running through late stage capitalistic rot, without the supportive morality that prevents it (to some extent, and in a protected version of capitalism). Yeah, that paper from 2022, with a patent that probably was entirely derived from a western education or source, will absolutely make things happen. It'd be the first time in history it ever did, but I've got a good feeling that this isn't another one of the 11,000 companies that failed in 2023.
Tech insight, chip manufacturer failures in 2023
When the CCP dies, and China gets to compete as a truly peer nation, assuming there's anybody left, then the west should fear China. Until that day comes, I treat their claims as substantive as a fart in a windstorm.
Lol, Boeing nEvEr fails.

And what exactly failed about HSR, as in 70% of HSR in the world is failing how? Japan is failing to build HSR in both India and Vietnam but you don't seem to care.

Also who is supplying Chinese Nuclear Powered submarines, destroyers and soon carriers? Why would the Chinese be bothered with diesel? If you want ***cheap reliable outdated fossil technology***, you go German.
 
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It's not, I've repeatedly stated in the past this was gonna happen and summarily dismissed, sanction them hard enough and it's only a matter of time until their technology advancements branch out and - eventually - leapfrog the West's. I have a lot more to talk about this, but it's all political and none of it very nice, so I'm giving it a pass - looks like @Assimilator covered the basics of it anyway.

In a capitalist system, you'd be 100% right. In the CCP, you are wrong. Instead of research-patent-monopolize-profit-research you get steal-replicate-drive cost out of product. The problem is that driving cost out is unsustainable. You need somebody to steal from, something to replicate, or somebody to give you a leg up. Let me suggest that you live in Brazil. Your country does quite a bit to protect technology...which is why for years you couldn't legally purchase videogame systems that were not manufactured in Brazil.
What happened? Brazil created a need by extreme protectionism. Initially, software pirates swooped in, and provided for the immediate need. Pirates became developers, and now Brazil has a surprisingly robust amount of developers Software dev/project list.

In China they steal western tech. They use local universities and middlemen to transfer that tech to industry. They develop cheaper versions, removing any investment in the stuff. They then pump these designs to the market, and let them low bid production to saturate the market. The company in another country that spent $100k developing the tech now has a competitor that can crap out a cheap clone at 70% of the price with none of the research cost. They come to the market, sell at 80% of the cost of the research group, and the research group never earns the money they invested back. That cycle continues until you get a product that you can't make cheap, is protected, or requires tech you cannot replicate because you haven't stolen it yet. You are the CCP...you have investment in spy networks, and you've spent 4 decades pushing for replication and not research. How do you suddenly turn around and make research a priority, when anyone in your own population that suggested that either donated their organs afterwards, or were priced out of the market by cheaper alternatives?

Well, we'll have to see if this is another case of China overpromising and underperforming. They remind me of these three companies that we all know of

So this time there is no "84 year old grandma handmade computer chip" ?

CCTV, an arm of the CCP, ran a piece on somebody hand fabricating 5nm chips. They claimed that they'd solved the manufacturing issues with the balls for ballpoint pens...and 80% of the market internal to China told them to go pound sand. The C919 is less reliable than Boeing and Airbus, cannot come close to meeting production goals, and is still reliant on western made goods because they cannot replicate the stuff they stole in the Boeing leaks.

I fear the Chinese people deciding that today is the day, and that the CCP needs to go. If they weren't part of such a backwards power they'd have eaten the lunch of a lot of lazy western markets, who only now are acting as though the CCP hasn't told the west that we are at war with them openly, and acted on that truth. That said, the CCP and the USSR are cut from the same cloth. Their downfall is their former strength, that they've got central planning and almost no flexibility. If the party leader says we need 5 nm manufacturing up and running by June 1st 2025 it will be running by then. If they say the yields must be 85%, the yields will be 85%. By the time the leader is finally aware that everyone is lying to avoid punishment, they are left with nothing to build upon. This is why 11,000 companies for semiconductors and chip manufacturing shutdown in 2023. It was not because they didn't have the resources (people), the training (again, western educations), or the physical resources. It is entirely down to the incentives for developing all of the stuff needed for the next revolution missing. Error 404, incentive to push technology forward not found because it's wasted capital.

You're welcome to hate capitalism all you'd like. Patents, or government protected monopolies, push things forward by making other companies have a hard time competing with you if you invest in development. In return, in a set period of time, that research is made public to enrich everyone. It's not perfect, but it's a far sight better than the communist idea of "sharing" everything. If I new the fruits of my effort would be "shared" and enrich only the people who would low bid with my technology I'd not want to burn myself making that tech. The CCP solved that problem by stealing the tech...where about 99% of their "leapfrogging" development came from. That's great...until there's no new tech to steal, nothing you can replicate, or you suddenly find the rest of the world aware of your "sharing" and unwilling to treat you as an equal anymore. Then you get to be North Korea.

Lol, Boeing nEvEr fails.

And what exactly failed about HSR, as in 70% of HSR in the world is failing how? Japan is failing to build HSR in both India and Vietnam but you don't seem to care.

Also who is supplying Chinese Nuclear Powered submarines, destroyers and soon carriers? Why would the Chinese be bothered with diesel? If you want ***cheap reliable outdated fossil technology***, you go German.

You seem to not read. Boeing is something I have issues with...and you think it's a pithy retort?

HSR is failing for a lot of reasons. I refer to the quality and replacement of the wheels causing catastrophic vibrations during riding. I could refer to ghost lines, or to insane costs which cannot be attainable for normal people....but that's another huge discussion. Don't really care about Japan, India, and Vietnam because they haven't tried to resell stolen HSR tech to the rest of the world by undercutting the people who developed it.

You seem to not understand the concept of boats. How many nuclear reactors do the Chinese have? Well, one carrier that cannot leave port without a tug. The other two are steam operated...so diesel and fuel oil. The thing is, most of China's naval assets are green water...IE, not open ocean. Most are powered by diesel, because it's literally the only way to power them. It's kinda silly that you can say they have the largest navy in the world by tonnage, without also considering if the Germans stopped supplying them diesel engines they'd have the largest amount of scrap in the water. You're welcome to bring up the nuclear sub argument...which is old soviet tech with some evolution...but none of that exports... It's amazing that you can read words and have zero comprehension of both what they keep and what they sell, and be so assured that they are awesome. It's almost like you reading comprehension is "what I think you said" instead of "the words." Consider me unimpressed, and entirely sure that the people so sure that China will win are also those too dense to be able to differentiate truth from propaganda. The west isn't perfect, but you don't have to be perfect to be better than the CCP.
 
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It's ironic that all the sanctions put to china actually pushed china to chase their own tech.
Funny way of saying copying & paste :)
 
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I wonder how much IP theft, government sponsored, was involved for developing this...
On a positive news, is better to finally have some more competition. There are also Japanese ones too, but they are 15-20 years behind of anything ASML is currently offering.
 
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I'm curious, does anyone have at least one piece of evidence of computer IP theft committed by China? Real evidence, not some myths and legends from the internet that are lies repeated a billion times. Warning, such lies are also found in articles on reputable websites, so not every piece of information published on such a site is necessarily true.
 
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While governments of the West are far from ideal I always cannot comprehend how can anyone defend and root for China and CCP. Guess many people really don't like Winne the Pooh and want to ban it forever.
it's not rooting for the CCP it's about rooting for technology to advance and prices to come down.
Is IP theft good no, but patent trolls/hoarders aren't either.

Mobile phones were more affordable and inovations came faster back when huawei was still allowed access to tsmc and android.
 
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Is there riusks of explosion, for this things ?
 
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I believe the reason China advances so quickly in so many areas is precisely because of the CCP. As a de-facto dictatorship they can, and do, direct all the necessary resources at a given challenge/task. Just remember how quickly they built those hospitals during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Do I approve of the CCP? No. We can't argue that they get stuff done, though. Not sure a democratic China would be able to pull this off.

Do I approve of *certain* Western "democracies"? Also no. Just to point to an obvious and OT example: ASML is Dutch, yet the US more or less tells it what it can and cannot do with its products.

Finally, yes, I believe China is exaggerating about their progress on EUV lithography, but probably not as much as some here believe. Only time will tell, though.
 
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it's not rooting for the CCP it's about rooting for technology to advance and prices to come down.
Is IP theft good no, but patent trolls/hoarders aren't either.

Mobile phones were more affordable and inovations came faster back when huawei was still allowed access to tsmc and android.
Whole industrial revolution happened thanks to patents. If it will be ok to steal them and produce at lower cost thanks to no R&D then there will be no incentive for companies to progress and innovate, for new ones to start up. If CCP will come over, steal it and then produce it, why bother.
It's not only China fault, they offered cheap manufacturing and the West bought it, so they are also to blame.

I believe the reason China advances so quickly in so many areas is precisely because of the CCP. As a de-facto dictatorship they can, and do, direct all the necessary resources at a given challenge/task. Just remember how quickly they built those hospitals during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Do I approve of the CCP? No. We can't argue that they get stuff done, though. Not sure a democratic China would be able to pull this off.

Do I approve of *certain* Western "democracies"? Also no. Just to point to an obvious and OT example: ASML is Dutch, yet the US more or less tells it what it can and cannot do with its products.

Finally, yes, I believe China is exaggerating about their progress on EUV lithography, but probably not as much as some here believe. Only time will tell, though.
USSR also was seen as being able "to get stuff done" with Stalin 5 year plans. It is not sustainable and leads to corruption, stagnation and whole lot of other bad things. China only survived thanks to the fact that they didn't close their economy, instead offered to produce for western countries for cheap.
 
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I visited Shenzhen last year and was struck by how advanced the infrastructure and technology was in the city. Coming from London, it seems as if here we are at least 15 years behind. Regarding computing, if you told me as little as 5 years ago China would catch up to the West in the near future, I would laugh at you. But now seeing the advancement in the last few years (in general technology terms, patent licensing, science etc) it is only a matter of time before they overtake our Western giants.
 
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Let's send them another Stuxnet-like mail and pretend no one was it :D
 
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C919 actually is flying and in production. But hey, such a super advanced nation as Japan could not get the smaller SpaceJet anywhere. Or should we talk about Boing?
People, just stop, please...
 
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I will believe when I will see it, too many 'we will do that big thing in future' and almost zero real results, in past, from this country/regime. Although we need competition.
This.

When chip wars started suddenly China was making their own DUV powered 7nm. And after that announcement.... radio silence. Meanwhile any china domestic chips we do see are nowhere near as good as what they tried to copy.

That being said, there is also no doubt in my mind China will eventually catch up. But then thats no different than everyone catching up because performance increases either stall more and more, or the node is just effin rare and expensive to fab on. That situation is already materializing; and there will eventually be benefits in being able to bake similar performance chips on various sized nodes. Its a simple cause and effect situation as the tooling expenses increase.

Progress is finite or at some point simply counterproductive, effectively creating a dead investment. This supposed advantage we have will not last, irrespective of China or whatever sanctions we use. The only thing we can and actually do, is slowing them down by denying stuff.

While governments of the West are far from ideal I always cannot comprehend how can anyone defend and root for China and CCP. Guess many people really don't like Winne the Pooh and want to ban it forever.
Yeah I guess it fits in the 'I hate my first world of freedoms and luxuries because some other guys have more money in it, too' sentiment prevalent among gen Z'ers that cant seem to get the same world of opportunity that previous generations had.

I cant explain that any other way unless we consider people really are just fucking stupid.
 
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at what cost? at what cost....

Doesn't matter (much). This is not a commercial venture that has to make money. It is a strategic issue for a (very) big country. They are willing to "lose" all kinds of money in this as long as it gets done. It's their Manhattan project.
 

Paul Young

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I visited Shenzhen last year and was struck by how advanced the infrastructure and technology was in the city. Coming from London, it seems as if here we are at least 15 years behind. Regarding computing, if you told me as little as 5 years ago China would catch up to the West in the near future, I would laugh at you. But now seeing the advancement in the last few years (in general technology terms, patent licensing, science etc) it is only a matter of time before they overtake our Western giants.
Totally agree, even though it's hard to accept.
 
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I think some people are facing the rude awakening that the China isn't just stealing Western tech and lying about their tech advancements.
so everyone else can start stealing China's tech then...which was stolen from other places, so... yeah, this should be fun


Sure, they still do that, but science and technology have for long been a high focus of the country, with huge investments in education and research - something that we can't even pronounce any more. This resulted in China surpassing all other nations in number of scientists, scientific papers, patent applications... In some areas their development has overtaken
spending can only get you so far, you can force people to do it, or, if your population doesn't want to enter the sciences, then, you move on to another way to accomplish the same kind of task, and that is with AI

Western world already, and the only tools we use to combat this is not advancing on our own, but seeking to stop their advancement or at least stop the products coming to the West, with various bans and tariffs - which of course helps lower their revenue, but ultimately this will only deepen the divide in time.
reciprocal tariffs are only trying to level the playing field, but I think the real problem is everyone wants to be top dog no matter the cost, but this is getting way OT
 
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I'm curious, does anyone have at least one piece of evidence of computer IP theft committed by China? Real evidence, not some myths and legends from the internet that are lies repeated a billion times. Warning, such lies are also found in articles on reputable websites, so not every piece of information published on such a site is necessarily true.
Ah yes, the good ol' tactic of pre-dismissing any possible example someone might offer as lies, even if it's from a reputable source. I'm sure in your mind people like Yanjun Xu were completely innocent and wrongly convicted by the tyrannical US government. Even though his own attorney admitted that he was a Chinese spy tasked with stealing IP, and despite China later agreeing to a prisoner swap involving him.

I hope you get paid well. It'd be sad to be doing this for free.
 
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Bingo. Globalism prevents war because it creates interdependence... when you remove that interdependence, you remove the safeguards against war.


Ignore the anti-PRC shills, they are really just the most braindead of bigots with zero critical thinking facilities.
The world is constantly at war. Whether it's with bombs or digital.

I've always kinda wondered something similar about Intel and Israel. Don't know why you'd build something so important in an area so unstable. Not like Israel was the hotbed for chip engineers or anything before hand.
 
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I'm curious, does anyone have at least one piece of evidence of computer IP theft committed by China? Real evidence, not some myths and legends from the internet that are lies repeated a billion times. Warning, such lies are also found in articles on reputable websites, so not every piece of information published on such a site is necessarily true.

Nortel

I've always kinda wondered something similar about Intel and Israel. Don't know why you'd build something so important in an area so unstable. Not like Israel was the hotbed for chip engineers or anything before hand.

It's an interesting question, the only answer I can find are massive tax incentives that brought not only Intel but many other tech industries
 
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Ah yes, the good ol' tactic of pre-dismissing any possible example someone might offer as lies, even if it's from a reputable source. I'm sure in your mind people like Yanjun Xu were completely innocent and wrongly convicted by the tyrannical US government. Even though his own attorney admitted that he was a Chinese spy tasked with stealing IP, and despite China later agreeing to a prisoner swap involving him.

I hope you get paid well. It'd be sad to be doing this for free.
I asc for facts and where is facts from you? I see zero. I will help you. Apple have patent for rounded corners of the phone. Huh.
 
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