China Develops Domestic EUV Tool, ASML Monopoly in Trouble

[naksu]

Many people disagree with you

 

[naksu]

I wonder how much IP theft, government sponsored, was involved for developing this...
On a positive news, is better to finally have some more competition. There are also Japanese ones too, but they are 15-20 years behind of anything ASML is currently offering.

Google

China leads the world In 37 out of 44 critical
technologies

 

[naksu]

CCP is known for its practices over foreign IP!!!

Google

China leads the world in 37 out of 44 critical Technologies

Whole industrial revolution happened thanks to patents. If it will be ok to steal them and produce at lower cost thanks to no R&D then there will be no incentive for companies to progress and innovate, for new ones to start up. If CCP will come over, steal it and then produce it, why bother.
It's not only China fault, they offered cheap manufacturing and the West bought it, so they are also to blame.


USSR also was seen as being able "to get stuff done" with Stalin 5 year plans. It is not sustainable and leads to corruption, stagnation and whole lot of other bad things. China only survived thanks to the fact that they didn't close their economy, instead offered to produce for western countries for cheap.

China's advantage is their government has "5 year" plans. (They are on#15 now).

in 2015, Beijing’s launched its "Made in China 2025" strategic plan aimed to transform the country from a low-cost manufacturing base into a high-tech superpower. Ten key focus industries have been identified, spanning

advanced computing,
aerospace,
artificial intelligence and
green energy (including electric vehicles).

Since then, Chinese companies – the likes of BYD, Tencent and Huawei – have become dominant global players in these arenas

In a democracy where the government changes every 4 to 8 years it's impossible to set long-term goals

For example Biden used government subsidies to encourage Americans to turn to electric vehicles. Now Trump is undoing everything to Biden tried to do

 

[naksu]

ASML President and CEO Christophe Fouquet used to state that prohibiting the export of these machines to China would cause the country’s semiconductor industry to lag 10 to 15 years, as per Dutch media outlet NRC.

 

[naksu]

FLASHLIGHT VS SPARK

ASML Laser-Produced Plasma (LPP) Method

This method is like using a powerful flashlight to shine on a mirror ball coated with tiny droplets. The flashlight (a high-energy laser) hits the droplets (liquid tin), turning them into a glowing mist (plasma). This glowing mist scatters light (EUV) all over the room. However, the flashlight needs to be incredibly powerful, and the process involves a lot of intricate machinery, like advanced circuits (FPGA chips), to ensure everything happens precisely. This makes it highly effective but also very complex and expensive.


China's Laser-Induced Discharge Plasma (LDP) Method

Now imagine instead of a flashlight, you use a simple spark between two wires
First, a small vapor cloud (tin) is released between the wires.

Then, a spark (high voltage) is applied, turning the vapor into a glowing cloud (plasma) that lights up the room (produces EUV light).

This method directly converts electricity into light, making it simpler and more energy-efficient.

However, it’s like trying to adjust the timing of the spark and the amount of vapor perfectly—it’s tricky to get just right. Additionally, some worry that this spark-based method might not be bright enough to light up a very large room (power output limitations).

Comparison
LPP (Flashlight on droplets): Complex, powerful, and precise but expensive and energy-intensive.
LDP (Spark in a vapor cloud): Simpler, cheaper, and more energy-efficient but technically challenging to optimize and potentially limited in brightness.

 

[trsttte]

Oh boy... Doesn't even understand the basic geo-politics of the last century

I'm not discussing geo-politics, those aren't allowed, i'm discussing nomenclature which has no linguistic logic precisely to steer away from geo politics

whoosh if I ever saw one ‍

 

[Scrizz]

green energy (including electric vehicles).

Since then, Chinese companies – the likes of BYD, Tencent and Huawei – have become dominant global players in these arenas

LOL

where do you think the tech came from

Elon Musk opens up Tesla patents; it 'isn't entirely altruistic'

The Tesla Model S just became the world’s first open-source car.

www.latimes.com

 

[Pizdarenkowitch]

Take a look also here:

https://indico-cdex.ep.tsinghua.edu.cn/event/38/contributions/214/attachments/144/206/Tang-SSMBActivitiesatTsinghuaUniversity.pdf

China is aiming to leap-frog current top-end EUV technologies with steady-state microbunching (SSMB) EUV, that would give China what's been called a "lithographic cannon", enabling faster, higher-yield, and cheaper production of cutting-edge 2nm-and-lower microchips.

 

[Crackong]

Take a look also here:

https://indico-cdex.ep.tsinghua.edu.cn/event/38/contributions/214/attachments/144/206/Tang-SSMBActivitiesatTsinghuaUniversity.pdf

China is aiming to leap-frog current top-end EUV technologies with steady-state microbunching (SSMB) EUV, that would give China what's been called a "lithographic cannon", enabling faster, higher-yield, and cheaper production of cutting-edge 2nm-and-lower microchips.

I am not Ph.D.

But I highly doubt the truthfulness of this piece when the person making this pdf can't even keep the word 'Content' in a single line.

 

[systemBuilder]

China is really good at theft. I bet the new EUV machine they have developed is 100% (and i mean absolutely 100%) identical to the ASML machine in every single way - the Chinese machine probably even has the same signatures of the Dutch designers on the circuit boards !!!

 

[Pizdarenkowitch]

I am not Ph.D.

But I highly doubt the truthfulness of this piece when the person making this pdf can't even keep the word 'Content' in a single line.

Then what about westerns scientists which are participating in Tsinghua University on their future SSMB machinery???
Still skeptical?

 

[JakeThomas]

The Chinese are arguably some of the smartest hardest working people on the planet. And we thought it would be a good idea to poke them in the eye and make an enemy out of them. Does anyone in the West study Chinese history? Do they understand how profound the 100 years of humiliation is to Chinese?

After seeing China's progress from living in a swamp to lead almost every single industry in the world (except semiconductors) in 20-30 years, we thought a few trade restrictions would stop them from taking the lead in semiconductors?

We just made the bear angry. And the told them we want to humiliate them for another 100+ years.

I read this quote that there has never been the rise of any empire like this without a war, instead they achieved it with sheer tenacity and hard work. We can't believe they wouldn't want to impose themselves on the world and turn other nations into slaves or take advantage of them, because that's what we would do if we were in their position.

OK great, so we made an enemy out of them. So what, we're going to keep trolling them and hope they are never able to dominate the last industry they want? To help ourselves sleep at night? How dumb and arrogant can we be.

 

[TumbleGeorge]

I read this quote that there has never been the rise of any empire like this without a war,

This is not true. But yes China don't have wars all over the world and very distant colonies like many other old and new empires.

 

[shehanm]

Chinese are more often words than results, but Huawei is not a joke. If Huawei is behind it, it's probably closer to reality than just an empty press release.

About competition. I doubt the Chinese will sell it abroad. If it works and if it offers advantages over ASML's machines, they will probably keep it in China and forbid selling it out of China. Except if US starts lifting it's bans, that I doubt it will happen any time soon.

Well, isn’t it the other way around? These days, most Western countries including the US are all talk and no real results. They shamelessly ban chips to China, yet China ends up developing some of the most cost-effective and competitive LLMs out there. So, from my perspective, it’s actually the US and the West who are the real culprits in this AI war.

 

[prodromosregalides@gmail.]

There is a strategic flaw in western policies, that is as much alarming, as it is baffling.

So, ok you ban your tech to China , so that you maintain leadership. Ok fine , excellent!

But , what do you do yourself ,once you slowed down your opponent? Do you make efforts
to increase your own speed? I don't think so . If the "West" was really concerned about its
silicon manufacturing prowess, it would try to make EUV machines in the US , in the UK , in Germany
and so on .

But they don't . They rely on the island of Taiwan, at least superficially . How stupid is that?
The claim that making EUV machines is still 10 years away for China is laughable on so many levels
it is already sad.
1st the scientific and industrial base of China is more than enough to make it in 10 years or earlier. But let's

suppose it happens after 15 years( I really doubt it will be delayed by that much but anyway). If you are not going to be
in a better position after 15 years , this means that all your efforts were in vain . Especially if you are still reliant on the Netherlands
and Taiwan.

2nd I am pretty certain , that all of the above is understood, exactly like this at the higher echelons, that take the decisions.
So, this means they know and they don't care. Maybe they don't care, because they know sth we don't know.
And this is certainly not the "it is very difficult to build EUV lithography". I mean, come on how difficult can it be ?
You are not asking it from the semi-savage tribes of the Amazon , this is China my friends.

 

[prodromosregalides@gmail.]

PS. Before the amount of dollars China invests for this , put an "x3" . Because this is the equivalent in the US conditions.
It is as effcient and buys equivalent intellectual power.