General Cryptocoin Discussion

[Papahyooie]

You can indeed, but I do not feel comfortable pointing fingers at random people on the internet and tried to make my point in a more polite manner.



Now that's a statement I can agree with.

Fair enough. When people say "we should do something" to me, that implies that I'm part of some conglomerate, and I must comply with the group.

I'm sure if you've read the thread, you can guess why that's an issue for me lol. But my apologies. I can appreciate intent.

 

[R-T-B]

Lower energy usage than bank offices and branches: may be true, but 1. blockchain calculations consume way more energy than bank transactions

This does not neccasarily have to be true. It's more a design limitation of PoW coins like bitcoin. As more PoS coins come out, I see this not being an issue at all.

Well, Nvidia thinks the gaming GPUs are meant for gaming. Have a look at their site. There is no mention of mining at all. Just saying........

NVIDIA GeForce

Ultimate gaming, creating, and AI with GeForce RTX

www.nvidia.com

I do, too. That's not an arguement against crypto in general.

 

[AusWolf]

Obviously nothing in this world can be entirely good or bad. I don't think anybody would make that claim about crypto.

You seem to be under the impression that you have to be a computer genius or a financial expert to use crypto... You don't have to mine crypto to use crypto. USING crypto is just as easy as any payment system on your phone (apple pay, android pay, etc.) And there are services that you can actually use crypto on a debit card, both using crypto directly and transferring seamlessly to fiat for places that don't accept crypto. These things are not mainstream yet. Hopefully they eventually will be. But there is no technological barrier to entry. You do not need to mine crypto in order to use crypto.

Cool, I believe you on this.

Independence from central banks and governments IS the point. Right now, you are dependent on everyone using the same currency as you. If the US dollar or whatever other currency collapses (and it absolutely can) then your money is worthless unless you act fast and make the switch soon enough yourself. See how that works? Fiat currencies are based on trust just as much as crypto, it's just WHO you trust that changes. Fiat, the trust is in governments. Crypto, trust is in the masses. I get it if you choose to trust governments more, but do not pretend that it's somehow different. It's exactly the same. Yes, crypto is generally far more volatile NOW. The hope is that that is not the case in the future, and it is changing. BTC has been pretty much as stable as the stock market in general for a couple of years now. Hopefully that track record can continue, and eventually reach stability parity with a fiat currency.

There's far less chance of the US dollar collapsing than any crypto currency. Trust in a central government's money that has been there for hundreds of years is different from trust in the masses who 1. do as they please, 2. aren't usually educated enough to make educated decisions.

Freedom from central banks aids in freedom from other things. It's not a silver bullet, no. Nobody said it was. But considering EVERYTHING is about money, including politics, it makes sense that wresting control of the money supply away from centralized government creates a more free environment. You are INHERENTLY more free by using crypto, because the money you are using is not controlled by a centralized government. I realize this sort of thing isn't on many peoples' minds... for some of us, it's very important. Continue to live in your cage if you wish, I say, but don't hinder me in my quest to break free.

I don't understand your bizarre idea that crypto will make nobody bake bread and deliver it to supermarkets. The only thing I can guess here is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what we're doing here. You do not have to mine crypto in order to use crypto, and if crypto replaced the world's currencies, there would still be people who bake bread and deliver it to supermarkets... they'd just get paid in crypto instead of dollar and pounds. Nobody is expecting everybody to be a crypto miner. That's silly, and I'm not sure why you'd even bring it up.

I continue "living in my cage" because I get my salary in British pounds, not crypto. That's my point with the example, and it's not gonna change. Companies are not going to swap for a currency that is not backed by a central bank, and can't be traced by them for taxation purposes and whatnot. The guy who delivers your groceries to the supermarket will never be paid in crypto. The government simply won't allow that. I'm sure you feel a lot more free mining and trading in crypto, but somebody has to work normal jobs for normal money, and pay taxes, healthcare, pension, etc. you know.

I'm not going to continue to argue the gamer vs miner thing after this point. Buying a graphics card that I have a right to buy is not aggression. You may THINK it harms you, but it doesn't, because you don't have a right to the card in the first place. When I buy a graphics card to mine with, I have made a consensual transaction with the graphics card seller to purchase it for my own purposes. YOU do not have a right to intervene in that transaction, no matter what you think. You may not like it, but there are lots of things you probably don't like. In fact, there are lots of things I don't like. I don't like being forced under threat of violence to pay taxes that go to building bombs to murder children in Afghanistan, for instance. But here we are. It is my prerogative to say F* the government , and crypto doesn't depend on your liking that. Again, I'm trying to be educational here, but if you reject the base assumption, there's nothing I can do about that, and I'm wasting my time.

So technically, you're telling me what I have the right to buy and what I don't, meaning you buy whatever you want and as many as you want, and it is my obligation to be happy with the leftovers (if there's anything left at all). That's the exact opposite of non-aggression as I see it. I wonder if your statement would change if it was about food, for example.

 

[Papahyooie]

Cool, I believe you on this.

Good!

There's far less chance of the US dollar collapsing than any crypto currency. Trust in a central government's money that has been there for hundreds of years is different from trust in the masses who 1. do as they please, 2. aren't usually educated enough to make educated decisions.

That's fine. I agree that it's less likely to collapse. I also believe it's morally reprehensible to perpetuate such a murderous institution if there are other alternatives possible, but that' just me. You're free to continue trusting whom you wish.

I continue "living in my cage" because I get my salary in British pounds, not crypto. That's my point with the example, and it's not gonna change. Companies are not going to swap for a currency that is not backed by a central bank, and can't be traced by them for taxation purposes and whatnot. The guy who delivers your groceries to the supermarket will never be paid in crypto. The government simply won't allow that. I'm sure you feel a lot more free mining and trading in crypto, but somebody has to work normal jobs for normal money, and pay taxes, healthcare, pension, etc. you know.

First, I didn't mean to offend with the "live in your cage" comment, that wasn't directed at you personally, but in the royal sense. That being said, you are wrong. You can buy computer equipment with crypto on newegg right now (and even get a lower price for doing so!) There is literally a bitcoin ATM in my small town shopping mall where you can exchange for USD, and vice versa. Microsoft accepts bitcoin. Paypal. Overstock.com. Whole Foods. Etsy. Starbucks. Home Depot. Twitch. All of these companies accept BTC.

As for paying people in crypto, and the government not allowing it... That's the point. If the infrastructure gets big enough, government will not be able to stop it. That's the power of a distributed system. It cannot be shut down. There are plenty of things that government can do to hinder crypto, as long as a transfer to fiat is required to perform day to day operations. Once that is not the case, there will be nothing government can do to stop it. And that's the goal. I never said we were there yet, simply that that's the goal.

I work a normal job. I'm a software QA Automation Engineer. I'm not really sure why you think that that makes any difference.

So technically, you're telling me what I have the right to buy and what I don't, meaning you buy whatever you want and as many as you want, and it is my obligation to be happy with the leftovers (if there's anything left at all). That's the exact opposite of non-aggression as I see it. I wonder if your statement would change if it was about food, for example.

Negative. If you get the card first, and make such a consensual transaction with the card manufacturer or seller, then I have no right to intervene in that transaction either. It is not my fault that graphics card makers cannot keep up with the demand, nor is it my responsibility to make sure that you get one before me. You can't get a graphics card because you either haven't put in the work that I have to find one, or you weren't willing to pay the premium of supply/demand, and I am. If you were or did one of those two things, and did them better than the next guy, you'd have a shiny new graphics card. It's not the next guy's responsibility to make sure you get a graphics card. If you wish to discuss non-aggression, then you need to read that Wikipedia page I posted and truly understand it. Because chances are, your ideas of what "aggression" means are not what it truly means.

No, my feelings and by proxy my statement about the subject would not change if it were food. I have cultivated (pun intended) the ability to fend for myself in such situations. I suggest everyone else do the same, because there is nothing but a vague promise from the guys with all the guns, that they won't do exactly that to you and your food supply.

 

[64K]

This does not neccasarily have to be true. It's more a design limitation of PoW coins like bitcoin. As more PoS coins come out, I see this not being an issue at all.


I do, too. That's not an arguement against crypto in general.

That was intended to all of the comments that GPUs aren't intended for gamers only.

 

[R-T-B]

That was intended to all of the comments that GPUs aren't intended for gamers only.

Gotcha. Missed the comment stream.

 

[AusWolf]

That's fine. I agree that it's less likely to collapse. I also believe it's morally reprehensible to perpetuate such a murderous institution if there are other alternatives possible, but that' just me. You're free to continue trusting whom you wish.

There's absolute zero chance I can earn my living in crypto, so it isn't really a question of trust, is it? Besides, I have no say in what those murderous institutions do with the taxes I pay, and I similarly have no say in what other members of the crypto market do with their money, so...

First, I didn't mean to offend with the "live in your cage" comment, that wasn't directed at you personally, but in the royal sense. That being said, you are wrong. You can buy computer equipment with crypto on newegg right now (and even get a lower price for doing so!) There is literally a bitcoin ATM in my small town shopping mall where you can exchange for USD, and vice versa. Microsoft accepts bitcoin. Paypal. Overstock.com. Whole Foods. Etsy. Starbucks. Home Depot. Twitch. All of these companies accept BTC.

No offense taken. Mostly every sentence starting with "you" means a general you on an online forum.

Are you talking about the USA? Financing and politics in Europe are a lot more centralised. Here in the UK for example, there is literally nothing you can do with your BTC or any other crypto coin without converting it into British pounds first. So I'm not wrong, just talking from a different perspective.

Besides, if those companies accept BTC, then they are a part and decisive factor in the crypto economy as well, so technically, you're also trusting them when you trust crypto. And the way they treat their employees isn't usually better than what governments do in general (speaking about murderous institutions).

As for paying people in crypto, and the government not allowing it... That's the point. If the infrastructure gets big enough, government will not be able to stop it. That's the power of a distributed system. It cannot be shut down. There are plenty of things that government can do to hinder crypto, as long as a transfer to fiat is required to perform day to day operations. Once that is not the case, there will be nothing government can do to stop it. And that's the goal. I never said we were there yet, simply that that's the goal.

I work a normal job. I'm a software QA Automation Engineer. I'm not really sure why you think that that makes any difference.

And I work as a warehouse trainer at one of the country's largest logistics firms. As I mentioned, I see no chance my company could ever pay me in something other than GPB. There are strict employment and taxation laws they have to adhere to. They can't go like "nah, we'll just skip the tax BS and pay everybody in BTC". There's also public healthcare here (known as national insurance, or NI) which is deducted from everybody's wage. Same with state pension. These are all controlled by the government. How are you going to pay for these if you're not using the government's money? Do you think companies focused on constant economic growth and compliance are going to bother with conversions from a highly volatile currency? Wouldn't make any sense.

Negative. If you get the card first, and make such a consensual transaction with the card manufacturer or seller, then I have no right to intervene in that transaction either. It is not my fault that graphics card makers cannot keep up with the demand, nor is it my responsibility to make sure that you get one before me. You can't get a graphics card because you either haven't put in the work that I have to find one, or you weren't willing to pay the premium of supply/demand, and I am. If you were or did one of those two things, and did them better than the next guy, you'd have a shiny new graphics card. It's not the next guy's responsibility to make sure you get a graphics card. If you wish to discuss non-aggression, then you need to read that Wikipedia page I posted and truly understand it. Because chances are, your ideas of what "aggression" means are not what it truly means.

No, my feelings and by proxy my statement about the subject would not change if it were food. I have cultivated (pun intended) the ability to fend for myself in such situations. I suggest everyone else do the same, because there is nothing but a vague promise from the guys with all the guns, that they won't do exactly that to you and your food supply.

You're right about one thing: it's not your responsibility to make sure I can get a graphics card. But the thing is, some people have been buying them up by hundreds, and that doesn't by far qualify as normal use. They could easily do with fewer, but they choose not to. With the food analogy, they would buy everything up from supermarkets, and not even bat an eye that so many people are starving. It's called greed, which is aggressive by nature. Turning back to the previous topic of who you trust, how is an economic system controlled by selfish, greedy people morally more acceptable than one that's controlled by equally selfish and greedy people but is a lot more stable?

About the food cultivation thing: Having a (not extremely well-paid) full time job, and living in a flat in a relatively busy small town is the sure recipe for not having the time, resource and infrastructure for such things. I wasn't born a farmer, and never intended to be one. Not to mention giving up my life and taking on farming (which I don't find particularly desirable) would also require my girlfriend to give up hers. So all in all: not gonna happen unless absolutely necessary. Another thing is, life is short, and if you spend all of it preparing for the worst, then you never truly live, which is again something I can't and don't want to afford.

This does not neccasarily have to be true. It's more a design limitation of PoW coins like bitcoin. As more PoS coins come out, I see this not being an issue at all.

I hope all coins turn into PoS eventually, and peace and prosperity will return to PC-lovers' lives.

 

[dragontamer5788]

TITAN and STEEL Emerge As Bear-Proof Assets

Over the past few weeks, as market conditions worsened for crypto as a whole, TITAN and STEEL have stood out as gems.

ironfinance.medium.com

Lol. Oh yeah, in case you haven't heard, this entire scheme collapsed.

Iron Finance's Titan Token Falls to Near Zero in DeFi Panic Selling

"What happened is just the worst thing that could possibly happen considering their tokenomics," said Iron Finance investor Fred Schebesta.

www.coindesk.com

The token was recently changing hands for around $0.000000035, down from Wednesday’s high of $65. The fallout, which has been swift, has brought the project to its knees.

 

[Outback Bronze]

Positive news in China: https://www.benzinga.com/markets/cr...at-miners-clean-energy-usage-exceeds-50-in-ch

Funny how people are saying its banned in China. I'd say the word restricted comes to mind instead.

 

[Robert Bourgoin]

Hedge funds bought deep into Bitcoin and crypto, that spells trouble and chance of fair play non existent.
Be wary be scared, don't go in with any amount that you will miss cause you probably will.

 

[Vayra86]

There's absolute zero chance I can earn my living in crypto, so it isn't really a question of trust, is it? Besides, I have no say in what those murderous institutions do with the taxes I pay, and I similarly have no say in what other members of the crypto market do with their money, so...


No offense taken. Mostly every sentence starting with "you" means a general you on an online forum.

Are you talking about the USA? Financing and politics in Europe are a lot more centralised. Here in the UK for example, there is literally nothing you can do with your BTC or any other crypto coin without converting it into British pounds first. So I'm not wrong, just talking from a different perspective.

Besides, if those companies accept BTC, then they are a part and decisive factor in the crypto economy as well, so technically, you're also trusting them when you trust crypto. And the way they treat their employees isn't usually better than what governments do in general (speaking about murderous institutions).


And I work as a warehouse trainer at one of the country's largest logistics firms. As I mentioned, I see no chance my company could ever pay me in something other than GPB. There are strict employment and taxation laws they have to adhere to. They can't go like "nah, we'll just skip the tax BS and pay everybody in BTC". There's also public healthcare here (known as national insurance, or NI) which is deducted from everybody's wage. Same with state pension. These are all controlled by the government. How are you going to pay for these if you're not using the government's money? Do you think companies focused on constant economic growth and compliance are going to bother with conversions from a highly volatile currency? Wouldn't make any sense.


You're right about one thing: it's not your responsibility to make sure I can get a graphics card. But the thing is, some people have been buying them up by hundreds, and that doesn't by far qualify as normal use. They could easily do with fewer, but they choose not to. With the food analogy, they would buy everything up from supermarkets, and not even bat an eye that so many people are starving. It's called greed, which is aggressive by nature. Turning back to the previous topic of who you trust, how is an economic system controlled by selfish, greedy people morally more acceptable than one that's controlled by equally selfish and greedy people but is a lot more stable?

About the food cultivation thing: Having a (not extremely well-paid) full time job, and living in a flat in a relatively busy small town is the sure recipe for not having the time, resource and infrastructure for such things. I wasn't born a farmer, and never intended to be one. Not to mention giving up my life and taking on farming (which I don't find particularly desirable) would also require my girlfriend to give up hers. So all in all: not gonna happen unless absolutely necessary. Another thing is, life is short, and if you spend all of it preparing for the worst, then you never truly live, which is again something I can't and don't want to afford.


I hope all coins turn into PoS eventually, and peace and prosperity will return to PC-lovers' lives.

PoS indeed but it has yet to be seen how that will work out exactly; the metric for transaction cost really does not change; its still a variable fee so markets will keep moving and might even remain volatile. When it gets stable enough, it will also have to remain there for a significant amount of time and meanwhile tons of speculating players could do little else but sit and wait... or launch more and more alt coin concepts to keep moving... which introduces volatility once more.

Interesting times.

Positive news in China: https://www.benzinga.com/markets/cr...at-miners-clean-energy-usage-exceeds-50-in-ch

Funny how people are saying its banned in China. I'd say the word restricted comes to mind instead.

We could argue every ban is a restriction; the net effect is the same: the regular economy and administration will not want it. Black and grey markets will exist anyway as they always have...

 

[1freedude]

While doing research to see if I can break into Chia plotting and farming, I was told by my finacial advisor that I cannot, per non-compete and securities clauses. I also found out a real estate title company in our area uses blockchain to prove its work.

 

[80-watt Hamster]

While doing research to see if I can break into Chia plotting and farming, I was told by my finacial advisor that I cannot, per non-compete and securities clauses. I also found out a real estate title company in our area uses blockchain to prove its work.

Crypto uses blockchain, but blockchain != crypto. Crypto may stick around, or it may not. I think it almost certainly will in some form. But blockchain is for sure here to stay.

 

[Hardcore Games]

Given the high cost of computation blockchain does not have any advantages over the conventional SQL database

MySQL is a layer on top of a flat file system and with MySQL it is also open source InnoDB which provides many advanced features


I studied advanced databases and there is more to the world than blockchain

 

[R-T-B]

the metric for transaction cost really does not change;

In energy usage hell yes it does. That is what we were talking about, no?

Given the high cost of computation blockchain does not have any advantages over the conventional SQL database

Too easy to forge a centralized sql record, so there's an advantage for blockchain right off the bat.

Blockchain is also not inherently computationally expensive. It's just a chain of signatures at it's core.

 

[Vayra86]

In energy usage hell yes it does. That is what we were talking about,

Its still measured in gwei, right? It might cost less of it.

 

[Robert Bourgoin]

Manipulation at it's best.
Polkadot, XRP, Solana, Chainlink, Bitcoin Cash, Theta, Ethereum, SHIB, Dogecoin—this is the list of today’s casualties after the global market capitalization of cryptocurrencies lost $80 billion overnight, dropping from $1.6 trillion to $1.52 trillion.

 

[R-T-B]

Its still measured in gwei, right? It might cost less of it.

Gwei is the ethereum fee for a transaction. We are talking about real world energy cost per transaction.

Manipulation at it's best.
Polkadot, XRP, Solana, Chainlink, Bitcoin Cash, Theta, Ethereum, SHIB, Dogecoin—this is the list of today’s casualties after the global market capitalization of cryptocurrencies lost $80 billion overnight, dropping from $1.6 trillion to $1.52 trillion.

It's only a loss if you sell now. I'm certainly not counting it as a loss yet.

 

[trog100]

Manipulation at it's best.
Polkadot, XRP, Solana, Chainlink, Bitcoin Cash, Theta, Ethereum, SHIB, Dogecoin—this is the list of today’s casualties after the global market capitalization of cryptocurrencies lost $80 billion overnight, dropping from $1.6 trillion to $1.52 trillion.

i am expecting a stock market sell off this monday.. i think crypto is doing the front running being as it trades over the weekend..

trog

 

[Hardcore Games]

futures are pointing to more red ink suggesting a rebalancing in the broader market as bond yields bumped up

 

[trog100]

well its monday morning in euroland.. no big sell offs as yet but the US markets have not opened yet.. he he

bitcoin and eth have taken another little dive and gold has gone up a bit..

i await the end of the day..

trog

 

[Vayra86]

Gwei is the ethereum fee for a transaction. We are talking about real world energy cost per transaction.

I wasn't. I was talking about the metric used to determine the cost of a transaction. Whether proof-of-work or proof-of-stake, the cost is measured in Gwei. That is what will keep Ethereum afloat as a usable currency to fulfill its smart contracts. Not the real world energy cost - that is just what's behind the cost in Gwei and has many factors that impact it: such as global energy overproduction which is a constant fact that may change in the future as power grids get more dynamic (it is happening even just because of coal shutting down - and it means less waste = higher price for energy as there is less of it), the price per kwh per region, where farms are situated in relation to that, etc etc etc. Note that we're amidst an energy transition here where higher cost to produce equals better because less carbon dioxide. All of those factors are margins of order bigger and less elastic than crypto.

Its an important difference I think, because Gwei is effectively an abstraction layer that could be used to dampen market effects, or amplify them. The architects of ETH decide, really, and they will nudge it in a favorable path until they can't do so anymore.

Remember that the end goal is not lower transaction cost, but the idea that the cost is negligible to the end user. Nobody wants to pay more commission than they do towards banks for their services, it directly kills any viability of crypto for its proposed goal for anyone intending to elevate crypto to a real transaction system in the real world. And that, but that's another point of interest, is the final banhammer the fiat currencies truly have, and are actively working at: make payment and transaction so easy and hide the cost so well, that any alternative is not marketable to begin with. You'd think a distributed network could make do with less than banks could, but it hasn't managed to do so, just yet.

 

[sepheronx]

we have a bot ladies and gents

 

[the54thvoid]

Spam removed.

 

[dragontamer5788]

well its monday morning in euroland.. no big sell offs as yet but the US markets have not opened yet.. he he

bitcoin and eth have taken another little dive and gold has gone up a bit..

i await the end of the day..

trog

There's virtually no correlation between Bonds, Stocks, and BTC. That's true in the up direction, as well in the down direction.

Case in point: BTC is down today, but S&P500 is up by 1.5%.