Global Warming & Climate Change Discussion

[the54thvoid]

You can understand the anti-green backlash when the cost of a 'green' car is beyond most ordinary wage-earners. It makes it so out-of-reach that the consideration of 'screw you guys' is going to be a normal reaction. I'm not poor by any means (not rich either) but I couldn't afford a 'decent' EV. Sure, I could buy a tiny box car but they're not practical for long journeys. That, and the infrastructure in the UK is verging on non-existent. It makes it so much easier to drive an internal combustion vehicle instead: cheaper, flashier and so many to choose from. These sorts of changes have to be driven by mandate. Which your signature quote wouldn't approve of!

 

[hat]

Indeed, we have nearly 100 years of gas powered vehicles to break away from. Switching to electric requires a massive change from the ground up: from the resources being gathered, to the various factories involved in finally putting a completed car together, to the supporting infrastructure once the car is owned by somebody and on the road. Gas powered vehicles are already here and supported.

Better fuel economy is a nice stop-gap measure while we get the above sorted out. I can drive forever on a full tank in my Honda Civic, and it only has like a 13 gallon tank. It goes farther on 13 gallons than my Ford Taurus did with an 18 gallon tank... and the Civic is an '04 model, so it's not like good fuel economy is anything new. I'm sure the newest models do even better... my Civic has a 5 speed manual transmission, so I'm sure a modern automatic with a ton of gear ratios (which would be unreasonable to have in a standard) could do even better, along with engine improvements as well.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

More on improvement of air quality because of COVID-19 quarantine:

A breath of fresh air

How air quality has improved during the coronavirus crisis

graphics.reuters.com

Video of India before and after:

https://graphics.reuters.com/CLIMATE-CHANGE/CORONAVIRUS-POLLUTION/jznvngjyplm/images/video/India_outdoors_v4.mp4

 

[moproblems99]

Oh, I am looking for investors for my venture to control sea level rise. All I need is $1000 or so per person and I'll let you into group. It involves drinking the ocean. 1 cup per person per day.

 

[mtcn77]

I got seeds of a bush plant that has berries like the taste of redoxon(vitamin c) tablets. Tastes just the over the counter medicine. Pretty amazing stuff, if you ask me. I hope to sprout them, makes fantastic jam.
Let's all celebrate healthy living while we can. Cause life is just like a japanese quince. You just got to make it into marmelade.

 

[Vayra86]

You can understand the anti-green backlash when the cost of a 'green' car is beyond most ordinary wage-earners. It makes it so out-of-reach that the consideration of 'screw you guys' is going to be a normal reaction. I'm not poor by any means (not rich either) but I couldn't afford a 'decent' EV. Sure, I could buy a tiny box car but they're not practical for long journeys. That, and the infrastructure in the UK is verging on non-existent. It makes it so much easier to drive an internal combustion vehicle instead: cheaper, flashier and so many to choose from. These sorts of changes have to be driven by mandate. Which your signature quote wouldn't approve of!

In that vein... did you pick this one up yet?

Mind=blown, here... and its pretty heavy, too. And when you've seen this... start seeing the parallels in our current crisis...

For me, this puts solid ground under that gut feeling that's been singing around for years. And I reckon many have had this.

This also has me scrolling back a page in this topic, looking at my previous post on EVs... Pfew...

 

[FordGT90Concept]

That day Michael Moore finally sees the light and agrees with me.

Half way into it though, they get into the stereotypical environmental alarmism.

And it talks about human overpopulation which I talked about many, many, many pages ago and people attacked me for it.

 

[Vayra86]

That day Michael Moore finally sees the light and agrees with me.

Half way into it though, they get into the stereotypical environmental alarmism.

Well we probably wont fully agree, but the two big ones here for me are not about fossil fuels at all... its about that second bit.. and its a question we need to investigate.

Profit motive, and pop growth.

 

[dragontamer5788]

You can understand the anti-green backlash when the cost of a 'green' car is beyond most ordinary wage-earners. It makes it so out-of-reach that the consideration of 'screw you guys' is going to be a normal reaction. I'm not poor by any means (not rich either) but I couldn't afford a 'decent' EV. Sure, I could buy a tiny box car but they're not practical for long journeys. That, and the infrastructure in the UK is verging on non-existent. It makes it so much easier to drive an internal combustion vehicle instead: cheaper, flashier and so many to choose from. These sorts of changes have to be driven by mandate. Which your signature quote wouldn't approve of!

I think hybrid cars are the near future, and maybe the only realistic future.

Pure electric vehicles have super-expensive Li-ion batteries, while gas engines are made out of (relatively) cheap steel. Hybrids allow for a small Li-ion battery, while the combustion engine becomes grossly more power-efficient. Furthermore, hybrid cars don't need charge (Plug-in hybrids can benefit from a charge, but its not strictly necessary).

The Prius Prime, Honda Clarity, and GM Volt all are $30k USD, maybe a bit cheaper. They're a few grand more expensive than a typical ICE car, but they're not grossly more expensive. I can see myself buying them, unlike a Tesla M3 (which has poor quality issues despite costing so much), or a BMW i3 (small vehicle at high price)

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The pro-green crowd has one more issue. The abnormally low prices on fuel is making "Green Energy" a less-and-less likely proposition. With fuel so cheap, why should we worry about saving fuel?

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There are some very smart technologies out there that are cheap and effective. Pumped Hydro, Compressed-Air for utility-scale energy storage (to make Wind / Solar more usable). At the home-level, I'm not very bullish on expensive Li-Ion energy packs, but I like the idea of Redox Flow and... whatever the heck this thing is. Basically, its a vat of water. Your air-conditioner runs when energy is cheap (ex: California has so much Solar Power that noon-energy is nearly free, or even negative-cost). When energy gets expensive (7pm California: the solar panels stop working, but the day is still hot. Everyone's AC is still running), you run a fan, blowing the cold out of the vat of water into your house.

The Ice-Bear energy storage vat is just that, a pool of water and a fan hooked up to your AC unit. The simple invention can store more energy than Li-Ion batteries. With proper insulation, it is surprising how long ~400 Gallons of water (1.5 Cubic meters) at 40F (or ~5C) can cool a house.

Unfortunately, this group went out of business earlier this year. https://www.greentechmedia.com/arti...ge-evangelist-ice-energy-files-for-bankruptcy

But inventions such as these are what we need most of all. CHEAP energy storage, built out of simple materials (like water) instead of expensive, hard to source Cobalt / rare metals.

 

[Vayra86]

I think hybrid cars are the near future, and maybe the only realistic future.

Pure electric vehicles have super-expensive Li-ion batteries, while gas engines are made out of (relatively) cheap steel. Hybrids allow for a small Li-ion battery, while the combustion engine becomes grossly more power-efficient. Furthermore, hybrid cars don't need charge (Plug-in hybrids can benefit from a charge, but its not strictly necessary).

The Prius Prime, Honda Clarity, and GM Volt all are $30k USD, maybe a bit cheaper. They're a few grand more expensive than a typical ICE car, but they're not grossly more expensive. I can see myself buying them, unlike a Tesla M3 (which has poor quality issues despite costing so much), or a BMW i3 (small vehicle at high price)

--------------

The pro-green crowd has one more issue. The abnormally low prices on fuel is making "Green Energy" a less-and-less likely proposition. With fuel so cheap, why should we worry about saving fuel?

-----------

There are some very smart technologies out there that are cheap and effective. Pumped Hydro, Compressed-Air for utility-scale energy storage (to make Wind / Solar more usable). At the home-level, I'm not very bullish on expensive Li-Ion energy packs, but I like the idea of Redox Flow and... whatever the heck this thing is. Basically, its a vat of water. Your air-conditioner runs when energy is cheap (ex: California has so much Solar Power that noon-energy is nearly free, or even negative-cost). When energy gets expensive (7pm California: the solar panels stop working, but the day is still hot. Everyone's AC is still running), you run a fan, blowing the cold out of the vat of water into your house.

The Ice-Bear energy storage vat is just that, a pool of water and a fan hooked up to your AC unit. The simple invention can store more energy than Li-Ion batteries. With proper insulation, it is surprising how long ~400 Gallons of water (1.5 Cubic meters) at 40F (or ~5C) can cool a house.

View attachment 154150

Unfortunately, this group went out of business earlier this year. https://www.greentechmedia.com/arti...ge-evangelist-ice-energy-files-for-bankruptcy

But inventions such as these are what we need most of all. CHEAP energy storage, built out of simple materials (like water) instead of expensive, hard to source Cobalt / rare metals.

I would be inclined to agree that some sort of hybrid energy supply is always favorable in a general sense.

This is also how our energy is provided at large, beyond cars. Its always a mix. What needs to happen is a global investigation on what mix is most favorable and most durable. Its not a full push for solar/wind/renewable, because that would strain other natural resources and push out other needs we have. Biomass being a good example. It created problems with food supply in some countries, and the surface area required does not weigh up to its return. Its not full nuclear either, though I think that really is a way to 'buy ourselves time' and has many efficiency advantages. Perhaps we just have to rocket the waste off to space, into nothingness?

In transport, a hybrid approach is also favorable. Not necessarily 'within the same vehicle' either. Why can't trucks run on petrol because they simply do need the high energy density and weight advantage? Why can't the short range traffic run on electric? Why are we not discussing this politically? It really does save us a shitload of resources creating an electric car versus a petrol one, up to a certain degree and as long as it can be a light vehicle... Its a whole lot less in terms of components and material cost, but also labor and maintenance. One thing is crystal clear... the market on its own is too slow to figure this out. It can only respond to itself.

Questions... and that brings me back to the mentioned profit motive in the linked documentary and the very human instinct of growth and expansion. We need to reconsider how we approach these problems in a big, big way. One way could be that we have 'an escape'. Elon Musk is a visionary in that sense. His plans for Mars are such an 'escape' to new resources we can tap into. Is it the best one? Perhaps not. But he's the only one right now thinking and acting in that direction. I'm not necessarily an environmentalist... but sustainability is a big one we cannot ignore. The alternative is misery and chaos, up to extinction.

At its core, I think we should recognize humans are like cockroaches, we eat it all, and we will have to move on to something new. Its not the highest of virtues... but we have no reason to attribute that quality to ourselves, as a species that is still fighting amongst themselves.

And it talks about human overpopulation which I talked about many, many, many pages ago and people attacked me for it.

I see you edited this one in later Yeah, I'm curious, did I attack you for it at the time? My general stance I think is similar, there's too many of us... I will say, the documentary was a confirmation for me of so many thoughts and principles I think we've been ignoring for far too long.

I seriously fear, that this climate change problem is going to be similar to COVID-19. Exponential in its effects and growth. Catching us by surprise. We're already seeing models we made a few years back have grown old and the only adjustment is up, up up. The documentary has this graph it shows with a flatline starting somewhere in prehistoric age, then the rapid pop growth with the industrial revolution... that seriously was like a copy of our now very familiar 'Curves'... time to flatten this one.

 

[xtreemchaos]

me i blame it all on der8auer and all his overclocking
na joking aside i really do think i can sum it all up in two words "were Doomed" or shorter "bye"

 

[Vayra86]

me i blame it all on der8auer and all his overclocking
na joking aside i really do think i can sum it all up in two words "were Doomed" or shorter "bye"

Yeah the lack of perspective is highly disturbing. But that makes the issue impossible to ignore, really. There's nowhere to run to.

 

[Tatty_Two]

The thing is.... sadly, it's the human race, the planet is over populated, China brought in a one child per family law for a number of years, for different reasons than the planet and over population and pretty much the rest of the world thought it was shocking, imagine how Western democratic nations would react to similar laws in their countries, one could argue that such a law would not only slow the population growth over a Century or 2 but would save economies Billions every year (Healthcare, Welfare, housing etc etc) to help fund greener policies and maybe cost offsets for the adoption of greener tech but we are greedy and most of us don't care what happens to future generations or the planet if we are not around, they cannot see generationally past their living children or grandchildren.

I am a believer in Global warming but a hypocrite to some extent but overpopulation is being massively overlooked and sits hand in hand with the destruction of natural resources and is actually the easiest and cheapest way to get us back on track, although not the quickest but in just over 200 years the planets population has increased over 7 fold

 

[xtreemchaos]

when i was in uni in the early 80s i was involved in a think tank or debating club and we tryed to look for a solution to GW using logic without letting our hearts being involve and the conclusion we came to after a long amount of time passing is that everybody over the age of 45 has to be turned off in other words back then population was the seen as engine driving GW. people x growth= dead planet. be kind.

 

[mtcn77]

I tend to believe common eudipus complex is the underlying cause in all this. Unless it is resolved, humans act in an impulsivity conditioned manner. You can verify my assessments.
It is left very much unnoticed, since you guys don't follow the same circumcision. It brings a new frame of mind. It is definitely overly simplified talking this way, but it is not some mutilation practice. There is a fundamental understanding going on in the psyche.
There are fundamental differences between eudipal complex active and resolved individuals. You form a whole civilisation on top of that, maybe this is the result? Eudipus complex is the fundamental difference between male and female genders, fyi. It is practically why humans do what they do.

 

[the54thvoid]

I tend to believe common eudipus complex is the underlying cause in all this. Unless it is resolved, humans act in an impulsivity conditioned manner. You can verify my assessments.
It is left very much unnoticed, since you guys don't follow the same circumcision. It brings a new frame of mind. It is definitely overly simplified talking this way, but it is not some mutilation practice. There is a fundamental understanding going on in the psyche.
There are fundamental differences between eudipal complex active and resolved individuals. You form a whole civilisation on top of that, maybe this is the result? Eudipus complex is the fundamental difference between male and female genders, fyi. It is practically why humans do what they do.

The Oedipus complex is the attraction to the opposite sex parent, where the child feels jealousy toward the same sex-parent who they see as a competitor. It's a Freudian term based on a greek drama. It's got absolutely nothing to do with the human instinct to procreate. It also applies to both sexes (though it's commonly termed the Electra Complex for girls).

(edited for getting the opposite-same sex roles around)

 

[Vayra86]

Oh dear. Here we go

 

[FordGT90Concept]

As I said over and over and over, nuclear fission is the only carbon neutral energy source available to mankind right now. I was extremely disappointed that the documentary didn't present it as a solution. It really didn't present any solutions at all. Missed opportunity.

Everyone should be all-in on nuclear fusion. Nuclear fission is a 100-year solution, nuclear fusion is a 1000 year solution. The sooner we get nuclear fusion functioning, the sooner the energy and environmental crisis ends.

 

[Vayra86]

As I said over and over and over, nuclear fission is the only carbon neutral energy source available to mankind right now. I was extremely disappointed that the documentary didn't present it as a solution. It really didn't present any solutions at all. Missed opportunity.

Everyone should be all-in on nuclear fusion. Nuclear fission is a 100-year solution, nuclear fusion is a 1000 year solution. The sooner we get nuclear fusion functioning, the sooner the energy and environmental crisis ends.

Good point but this can also not be the 'end game'. And it only solves the energy question.

Maybe we are approaching an age where the market is no longer the best driver for progress and wealth.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I see you edited this one in later Yeah, I'm curious, did I attack you for it at the time? My general stance I think is similar, there's too many of us... I will say, the documentary was a confirmation for me of so many thoughts and principles I think we've been ignoring for far too long.

"We" psssssssshhhhhhhhh!!! Good sir, I have NEVER promoted wind/solar/biomass. In fact, I literally said they're code words for "natural gas." The documentary just regurgitated what I've been saying since this thread was created and before then. I'm not full of !@#$, most of the time.

Good point but this can also not be the 'end game'. And it only solves the energy question.

Indeed, there's the food side to the equation this thread has never really touched upon other than that brief tangent into overpopulation territory. "Nitrogen fertilizer" is code word for oil but, with smart crop rotation, you really don't need oil-based fertilizers to replenish depleted farm land. On top of that, the scary word "GMO" makes crops more resistant to drought and the like so crops don't need as much water to produce yields. We're actually moving a lot faster on the food side of things than we are on the energy side.

Ultimately, the solution to overpopulation is going to be ending poverty. Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation are charging headlong into that problem.

 

[Deleted member 67555]

A lot of human pollution has slowed or stopped because of the Corona-virus...can't wait to see the data from this.
Anecdotal evidence...The weather here seems to be much cooler than normal for this time of year...but then again it seems as though seasonal changes have been offset by roughly a month the last few years.

Back in 2012 a local Steel mill closed....since it closed the weather pattern in my city has drastically changed....we used to joke about how the weather was always different here than in the next city over.

 

[the54thvoid]

"We" psssssssshhhhhhhhh!!! Good sir, I have NEVER promoted wind/solar/biomass.

Come live in cloudy, windy Scotland!* But you're right - these systems rely on variables beyond human control and biomass is just plain wrong.

In Scotland, renewables accounted for 74% of power generation in 2018.

 

[Assimilator]

I don't understand why people continue to be against wind and solar. Scale solves everything, with enough wind and/or solar farms and enough pumped storage you don't have to worry about vagaries of weather.

Yes, it's expensive - but hey, scale solves that problem too. And the way to get the maximum scale is to devote massive amounts of public resources to it.

We could call it something like, I dunno... "Green New Deal"?

Maybe we are approaching an age where the market is no longer the best driver for progress and wealth.

We passed that age about half a century ago.

 

[the54thvoid]

I don't understand why people continue to be against wind and solar. Scale solves everything, with enough wind and/or solar farms and enough pumped storage you don't have to worry about vagaries of weather.

Yes, it's expensive - but hey, scale solves that problem too. And the way to get the maximum scale is to devote massive amounts of public resources to it.

We could call it something like, I dunno... "Green New Deal"?



We passed that age about half a century ago.

Current green tech is a stop gap contributor until we get either fusion and/or viable battery storage tech that doesn't cost the earth to manufacture (financially and ecologically).

 

[hat]

A lot of human pollution has slowed or stopped because of the Corona-virus...can't wait to see the data from this.
Anecdotal evidence...The weather here seems to be much cooler than normal for this time of year...but then again it seems as though seasonal changes have been offset by roughly a month the last few years.

Back in 2012 a local Steel mill closed....since it closed the weather pattern in my city has drastically changed....we used to joke about how the weather was always different here than in the next city over.

No kidding. I must admit, I had the same thought myself... but that couldn't be it... there's no way that the climate has been impacted this much because we've stopped producing as much crap for a couple months.

Re: steel mill, you're taking about Vallourec (formerly V&M Star), yeah? It was down for a good while back in... 2014 I think? Since then, it's been opened again, however I heard it just recently closed again because of the low oil prices.