Intel CPU Roadmap and DDR5

[Vayra86]

And now they sport pci express 4.0 and higher ddr4 support and will be implementing ddr5 next year...
Intel’s ddr5 and pci express 5.0 is still late uptill 2021/22 and that even not to be desktop parts but server builds

Exactly, there is tangible product in the pipeline. Not so much for Intel. This is why it is worth seeing if Zen can do the work mentioned without bugs.

 

[aQi]

Exactly, there is tangible product in the pipeline. Not so much for Intel. This is why it is worth seeing if Zen can do the work mentioned without bugs.

Zen has worked alot this is the first time im seeing and believing after 2003. Meanwhile Intel is working on X graphic cards and Amd already files patents for performance ray tracing.

 

[efikkan]

If I may pitch in,

I am planning to upgrade to the next major Intel CPU release, but I have lost tracked and confused what is up next from Intel. Would be it 7nm or 10nm? Will it be utilizing DDR5? I Googled Intel CPU Roadmap and not sure I understand what the image means at all.

2021 might be a bit far away. So no new desktop Intel CPU at all for 2020? Will it just be 9900KS?

No, there are at least something coming soon.
Unfortunately we have very little confirmation from Intel, except Ice Lake-SP(server) shipping Q2 next year.
There are some leaked roadmaps from Dell, which is either outdated/full of errors or simply fake.

But what we sort-of know is this:
2019:
HEDT refresh: Cascade Lake-X - Faster clocks, minor improvements, probably price adjustments to compete better with AMD.
Coffe Lake-S refresh: i9-9900KS incoming - just tweaked clocks
Late Q4 or Q1 2020:
Mainstream desktop: Comet Lake-S - fairly certain it's coming, but details remain unconfirmed: 10 cores, 14nm, minor improvements, possibly improved core-to-core bandwidth.
Entry level workstations: Comet Lake-E, Xeon counterpart of Comet Lake-S.
2021:
Rocket Lake-S and Rocket Lake-E, supposedly based on Ice Lake chipset.

This is for work, not for gaming. No Ryzen. Intel only. I need stability and lots of cores + high single core speed. Current CPU is 7 years old 4930k and I don't want to go HEDT ever again.

I develop software…

A quick check of the $1k i9-7900x does not show drastic performance boost my 4930k, or it may even lost out to the new Ryzen. Really disappointed in Intel.

As a long time developer myself, I understand your requirements.
I still wonder about your dissatisfaction with HEDT, is it just about price?

I've been developing on Sandy Bridge, Haswell and Skylake, both mainstream and HEDT variants, so I have a good mental picture of the differences. When it comes to general performance improvements, there is a noticeable difference, but not huge gain. So for responsiveness and singlethreaded tasks, there is a small gain, but some tasks will benefit more from more cores. You will probably see some appreciated improvements in compile time, especially for modern compilers like GCC or LLVM, a little less so with Visual Studio. Anything with VMs will benefit greatly, both from more cores, and also from better virtualization on newer CPUs. Bloated Java based crap like Eclipse, Netbeans, etc. will still be slow as ****.

The new arrival of Zen 2 is of course something most people will bring up, but it's important to remember that it brings the same performance levels we've had for two years, but much cheaper and more energy efficient, plus it brings >8 cores to the mainstream platform. Also, workstations are usually built for a purpose, so you should look more at relevant benchmarks and ignore irrelevant ones. E.g. Blender rendering is only relevant if you do Blender rendering, Cinebench is relevant for nobody. And don't forget that Intel's HEDT lineup will refresh and readjust within a couple of months.

My questions for you are:
Is this something you pay for yourself, or is it something you have to convince your superior about?
Are you looking for a "value build", or how much are you willing to pay for performance and stability?
I would strongly consider ECC memory for a developer workstation, but not if this is a "value build".
There is always the question of waiting vs. buying "now". How immediate is your need? "Immediate", 6 months, or 2 years?

 

[LFaWolf]

If I may pitch in,


No, there are at least something coming soon.
Unfortunately we have very little confirmation from Intel, except Ice Lake-SP(server) shipping Q2 next year.
There are some leaked roadmaps from Dell, which is either outdated/full of errors or simply fake.

But what we sort-of know is this:
2019:
HEDT refresh: Cascade Lake-X - Faster clocks, minor improvements, probably price adjustments to compete better with AMD.
Coffe Lake-S refresh: i9-9900KS incoming - just tweaked clocks
Late Q4 or Q1 2020:
Mainstream desktop: Comet Lake-S - fairly certain it's coming, but details remain unconfirmed: 10 cores, 14nm, minor improvements, possibly improved core-to-core bandwidth.
Entry level workstations: Comet Lake-E, Xeon counterpart of Comet Lake-S.
2021:
Rocket Lake-S and Rocket Lake-E, supposedly based on Ice Lake chipset.




As a long time developer myself, I understand your requirements.
I still wonder about your dissatisfaction with HEDT, is it just about price?

I've been developing on Sandy Bridge, Haswell and Skylake, both mainstream and HEDT variants, so I have a good mental picture of the differences. When it comes to general performance improvements, there is a noticeable difference, but not huge gain. So for responsiveness and singlethreaded tasks, there is a small gain, but some tasks will benefit more from more cores. You will probably see some appreciated improvements in compile time, especially for modern compilers like GCC or LLVM, a little less so with Visual Studio. Anything with VMs will benefit greatly, both from more cores, and also from better virtualization on newer CPUs. Bloated Java based crap like Eclipse, Netbeans, etc. will still be slow as ****.

The new arrival of Zen 2 is of course something most people will bring up, but it's important to remember that it brings the same performance levels we've had for two years, but much cheaper and more energy efficient, plus it brings >8 cores to the mainstream platform. Also, workstations are usually built for a purpose, so you should look more at relevant benchmarks and ignore irrelevant ones. E.g. Blender rendering is only relevant if you do Blender rendering, Cinebench is relevant for nobody. And don't forget that Intel's HEDT lineup will refresh and readjust within a couple of months.

My questions for you are:
Is this something you pay for yourself, or is it something you have to convince your superior about?
Are you looking for a "value build", or how much are you willing to pay for performance and stability?
I would strongly consider ECC memory for a developer workstation, but not if this is a "value build".
There is always the question of waiting vs. buying "now". How immediate is your need? "Immediate", 6 months, or 2 years?

Great info of the roadmap.

To answer your questions -
1. We went with HEDT back then because it was the only way to get 6-core, and 64GB of memory. I routinely run up to 40+GB of memory usage, +8GB for my ram disk. The only way back then to get 64GB DDR3 was using a HEDT. I have built several similarly configured machines for other devs all using Intel HEDT and everyone was very happy. Very stable.
2. The money will be coming out of my own pocket. My budget is $2k when I want to upgrade. It is only for the CPU, MB, Memory, and 2x 1TB Gen3 NVMe drives. I have stockpiled the rest, all new except the GPU (GTX 1060). I don't game on my work machine. 100% stability and compatibility is of utmost importance. I don't OC my work machine.
3. I am not sure why I need ECC memory at all. The office Active Directory runs 2x Xeon with ECC. No dev here has had memory or BSOD issue with regular DDR3. I commit my code to the repository many times a day.
4. However, I dislike HEDT because of the price. I paid $400 for the ASUS x79 Deluxe board, $500 for the 4930k, and $500+ for the memory. I never utilize the multi GPU capability. Other than extra memory configuration, I used none of the HEDT functionality. If I don't need it, I would rather not pay for it. In this round of HEDT, i9 9920x is $1200, and can be matched by $500 Ryzen 3900x. No reason for me to go HEDT. 9920x alone costs the same as the 3900x + memory + 2x 1TB Gen3 NVme drives
5. So far the 4930k is still holding up, but after numerous Intel patches, I do notice a slow down in compile time and general usage. I think planning for the upgrade now and upgrade within a year or so, or maybe with the 3950x is out. I want something that can double my multi-threaded performance, and at least 50% better single threaded performance over my current setup. That should last me another 7 years(?) hopefully. I believe there is a diminishing return when going over 12 or 16 cores.
6. I don't do Blender, video processing, etc. None of that. Only code. No VM as we use AWS. MS VS 2019 and VS Code. I did use Eclipse in the past and it was okay. IntelliJ was much better.

I have questions to you -
1. What dev tools are you using?
2. What platform are you currently on? Intel? How does it perform for your dev tools? Are you upgrading to Ryzen?

 

[efikkan]

The money will be coming out of my own pocket. My budget is $2k when I want to upgrade. It is only for the CPU, MB, Memory, and 2x 1TB Gen3 NVMe drives. I have stockpiled the rest, all new except the GPU (GTX 1060). I don't game on my work machine. 100% stability and compatibility is of utmost importance. I don't OC my work machine.

You had a PSU right? EVGA G2 1300? I'm not familiar with that particular one, and it might be good. But in general, it's the most important part for stability.
I don't cheap out on motherboards, I've built several system with Asus' WS lineup, but they have gotten pricey lately. Check out Supermicro, pricey, but interesting. MSI might be okay if you're careful which one you pick. Stay away from Gigabyte.
You didn't mention cooling. I see you have a Noctua from before, so at least you know quality. I haven't checked if you can refit your old one, but anyway you can't go wrong with a solid air cooler from Noctua or Be Quiet. Just stay away from AIO watercoolers.

I am not sure why I need ECC memory at all. The office Active Directory runs 2x Xeon with ECC. No dev here has had memory or BSOD issue with regular DDR3. I commit my code to the repository many times a day.

ECC is one of those things that is hard to know when it's "worth it" or not.
BSOD or other system crashes is one thing which has become more rare over the years, but there is also application crashes and data corruption (before it's written to storage). I expect my workstation to be running for 6 months without crashes or reboots. As I mentioned, ECC is not relevant for a "value build", but something you consider after you have gotten everything else that you want. I would consider it, but I wouldn't push anyone to buy it. Since you are hesitant about HEDT for pricing, I guess ECC is not relevant.

However, I dislike HEDT because of the price. I paid $400 for the ASUS x79 Deluxe board, $500 for the 4930k, and $500+ for the memory. I never utilize the multi GPU capability. Other than extra memory configuration, I used none of the HEDT functionality. If I don't need it, I would rather not pay for it.

Well, that's the thing with HEDT, you pay a bit for a lot of features you may or may not need. It's hard to create a platform for each possible need, which is why we have the mainstream platforms which are a bit too barebone, and HEDT which has "everything", but is more pricey. It's easy to choose for "normal" users, but often hard to choose for "power users".

In this round of HEDT, i9 9920x is $1200, and can be matched by $500 Ryzen 3900x. No reason for me to go HEDT. 9920x alone costs the same as the 3900x + memory + 2x 1TB Gen3 NVme drives

I wouldn't buy Skylake-X now, right before a refresh. It was fairly priced vs. last year's Threadripper, but need a solid price cut vs. Zen 2.

So far the 4930k is still holding up, but after numerous Intel patches, I do notice a slow down in compile time and general usage. I think planning for the upgrade now and upgrade within a year or so, or maybe with the 3950x is out. I want something that can double my multi-threaded performance, and at least 50% better single threaded performance over my current setup. That should last me another 7 years(?) hopefully. I believe there is a diminishing return when going over 12 or 16 cores.
I don't do Blender, video processing, etc. None of that. Only code. No VM as we use AWS. MS VS 2019 and VS Code. I did use Eclipse in the past and it was okay. IntelliJ was much better.

Your setup is fairly similar to my home workstation; i7-3930K, Asus P9X79 WS, 64 GB 1600 MHz DDR3.
Mine is due for an upgrade too, but I know my workload very well, and while more cores will be useful, faster cores is more important. So for now I keep it only because I'm waiting for a worthwile upgrade. I'm not afraid to spend the money, I'm probably even willing to pay more than you, perhaps up to $1500 for a CPU if it gave me what I wanted. If I could get something ~20% faster per core than i9-9900K (in real, not synthetic benchmarks), and then at least 12 of those cores, I would probably buy it in a heartbeat. Neither Skylake-X nor Zen 2 (3900X) is close to that performance level. I too want something that lasts, but know that more slow cores can't compensate for fewer faster cores.

1. What dev tools are you using?

Well firstly, I use Linux (Ubuntu) for development. It's been several years since I developed on Windows, so this might be very different from your use case. As of why? I do various development work, and all of it works on Linux, is faster on Linux, and I can configure it for my needs. I've been wanting to try out Clear Linux, a distro with a lot of performance optimizations, but I never have the time, and I'm not sure it's so "stable", it's more an experimental thing. I use boring Ubuntu because it's mostly hassle free, generally stable as a rock, and even if it messes up somehow, I can reinstall a fresh copy and run a couple of scripts, and everything is set up for my needs in a few minutes. I also have the OS drive and the "work" drive separate, so I can replace it or migrate to another machine in minutes, if there is a hardware failure.
When it comes to tools, it depends on what I'm doing. I use a lot of makefiles with GCC og LLVM for C/C++, but also Java and various web technologies. I mostly stay in a "plain" text editor when I can, lately that's been Sublime, but sometimes I have to step into tools like Eclipse etc. I'm an "oldschool" guy, most of the time I live in a text editor and a dropdown terminal, but I'm fairly "allergic" to lag, so in my text editor I turn off any kind of auto completion and assistance tools except indenting, as it makes me crazy when there is a lag between typing and words popping up.

2. What platform are you currently on? Intel? How does it perform for your dev tools? Are you upgrading to Ryzen?

I mostly answered this above.
I don't consider Ryzen (Zen 2) for a workstation, but I would consider Zen 3 if I haven't upgraded to anything else by then, assuming it seems to be "problem free" for others.