Is Subwoofer necessary?

[ThrashZone]

Hello, I've been using Altec Lansing BXR1121 model 2+1 speaker system.

View attachment 282176

But Creative claim that their product is so unique that it doesn't need a subwoofer yet its sound quality is much better than ordinary 2+1 sound system. The model is Gigaworks t 40.
View attachment 282177

Do you think this is actually true? If we talk about this specific model, Would creative sounds better than the Altec?

Hi,
If you like Boom-Boom... it is

 

[Anoniem]

Never, ever, fucking ever, believe marketing. The saying is as follows: Lies, damned lies, and statistics. You might hear something I don't, you might not hear what I do etc. It all depends on your ears. Our ears are not the same, very far from it actually, they're unique to every person. So much in fact that you could almost substitute them for fingers. The shape of the ear determines what you hear and then there is the brain. Our brain is our best friend and our worst enemy at the same time, letting us hear different things at different times.

TL;DR, go fudging listen to some speakers on your own before buying.

 

[theFOoL]

Yes a sub is Nessary but some "depending on the brand" can have good 2.0 speakers with good bass. I have from 2009 "Logitech X-240" RIP My Brother as he decided to buy them. They to this day are loud and pack a punch

 

[tussinman]

@tussinman
Can you still hear car horns or sirens from inside your rolling audio studio?

Car horns I rarely hear if ever. Sirens will sneak up on me for sure. At nighttime for example I'll see the police or ambulance lights (either in front of me or via one of my mirrors) way before I hear it. During daytime hours there's been a few times where by the time I actually hear it I'll be shocked how close the ambulance is to me ! (my old car I would have heard it hundreds of yards away where now I might not hear it till it's 5 or 6 car lengths behind me).

As a result of the car being bomb shelter quite (plus the aftermarket audio system) I use all 3 of my mirrors religiously. If the driving situation is bad (bad weather, poor visibility, construction, bad traffic either due to congestion or wrecks) I'll turn my music completely off and slightly crack my windows.

 

[80251]

@tussinman
I think I'd rather live in your car than my apartment -- it would be quieter!

 

[jsfitz54]

These are nice: https://www.paradigm.com/en/subwoofers

 

[kiriakost]

You might hear something I don't, you might not hear what I do etc. It all depends on your ears. Our ears are not the same, very far from it actually, they're unique to every person.

Never mention this side of your story to a real Doctor.
What maters the most at humans hearing potential, both ears to be undamaged, and or both ears to be equally damaged.
Hearing its a sensor for people them be alerted of all sort of dangers at their environment.

I did damage at young age my right ear drum, because I was enjoying high power audio, totally non-distorted sound because of my highest quality pair of speakers.
One day later, I did realize the damage, when I tried to use my headphones.
20 years later, my hearing at both ears has now equalize, but both ears frequency range will never be equal.

Never use combined speaker power of 250W RMS (8 Ohm) in to a 12 square-meters of a room.
While computer speakers they are powerless, when compared to above example, its best us always be alerted about the risks.

Any hearing damage its not reversible, and this is the most painful fact.

 

[Frag_Maniac]

Hello, I've been using Altec Lansing BXR1121 model 2+1 speaker system.

View attachment 282176

But Creative claim that their product is so unique that it doesn't need a subwoofer yet its sound quality is much better than ordinary 2+1 sound system. The model is Gigaworks t 40.
View attachment 282177

Do you think this is actually true? If we talk about this specific model, Would creative sounds better than the Altec?

The only manufacturer I can think of that comes close to that claim is Bose, whom have for a long time used relatively small drivers and elaborate bass port design to yield fuller bass depth to the sound. Those designs come at a price though. The only way to really know what speakers sound like is to actually listen to them. There are good subwoofers and really bad ones too, so just having a sub doesn't automatically mean better bass.

 

[cornemuse]

I am almost deaf.

Having said that, this is what I do.
I have a very old Altec-Lansing setup with the 2 satellites & the base unit. Unit has volume controls on the top of the right-side speaker. (I use sound cards software settings, *bass *treble *balance *etc) I have the base under my desk where I can actually feel the sound in my feet & lower legs! The sub-woofer is 4" with a huge magnet.
The problem I have is: the sub, 'cause its near to the floor, gets a lot of dust in it, it starts 'scratching' & needs replacing.

Remember(?) Radio Shack sold a bookshelf speaker "Minimus 7", 4" in a cast metal box, they were very highly rated at the time.

Anyways, I have replaced the woofer speaker twice, (I bought a set of minimus spkrs at a thrift store) & used them as "perfect" replacements for the A-L sub-woofer. Opening the base was a major chore, they used a huge amount of 'sealant' to separate *inside & outside* of box.

I have a set of the RS Minimus' I bought brand new years ago, but will not use them for parts.

-c-

 

[Operandi]

Indeed, I prefer a 2.0 system.

Just get two high quality larger hi-fi speakers and you effectively get two subwoofers for really powerful bass. I’ve never liked this idea of only a mono speaker for the bass notes. The sound doesn’t integrate as well and one can tell bass direction, contrary to popular belief. Especially so when the music is recorded with the drummer hitting drums (or synth bass notes) on both sides of the sound stage as sometimes happens.

I’ve got two large hi-fi speakers dating from the 1970s that I bought used and still sound fantastic, with big bass.

Subs can be hard to integrate which is why some people don't like them for music. It may or may not be that the sub is bad just that their placement is wrong the room is problematic. Two subs can help cancel out room modes but most people won't want to double their budget.

I prefer the bass out of 8" towers in the living room to the 10" JBL sub (which plays lower) I have for my over the top desktop setup but its not the same room so its hard to say which is actually producing high-er quality bass.

Yes, that’s true. The key here is “tons of power”. Those small speakers will need a very long cone excursion to compensate for their small size in order to move enough air.

Lots of power and an expensive and high-end drivers that can remain linear throughout that excursion which is why all high-end sealed subs are so expensive. The cheap and easy way is a big ported enclosure and a cheap driver which is what all budget subwoofers are (not that all ported subs are cheap and/or bad).

 

[Bill_Bright]

Subs can be hard to integrate which is why some people don't like them for music.

They typically are simple to integrate into an audio system. If someone is going to the effort of buying a separate sub, they should already have done the necessary homework to ensure their receiver (or preamp) has the necessary Sub/LFE output - which just about every AV receiver (or preamp) that supports 5.1 surround sound has had for the last 2 or 3 decades.

Even this budget Technical Pro RX55UriBT Professional Receiver with USB RX55URIBT (bhphotovideo.com) for $170 has a Subwoofer output.

Integrating into a small room may be a challenge but again, very low frequencies are almost omni-directional so placement is much less critical.

But I fear an important factor is being overlooked here. Top quality "full range" speaker systems typically don't need a discrete subwoofer to complement them to accurately reproduce "music". But when it comes to home theater audio, where sound effects like thunder, explosions, evilness of Mordor, and "out-of-this-world" sounds need to be reproduced, the LFE (low frequency effects) provided by a good sub-woofer does become necessary.

This then involves the fact most people don't have separate music systems and home theater audio systems - unless fortunate enough to have a separate, dedicated home theater room.

So I disagree with your characterization that some people "don't like" subwoofers for music. It is that they feel they don't need them to be thoroughly entertained. Either that, or they don't know what they are missing. Or they have a better half that doesn't want that ugly box in the living room.

 

[KrazyT]

But I fear an important factor is being overlooked here. Top quality "full range" speaker systems typically don't need a discrete subwoofer to complement them to accurately reproduce "music". But when it comes to home theater audio, where sound effects like thunder, explosions, evilness of Mordor, and "out-of-this-world" sounds need to be reproduced, the LFE (low frequency effects) provided by a good sub-woofer does become necessary.

Totally agree.
I really feel that, even if a sub is a sub, there are some sub for music, and some for home theater.
As you said, in a ideal world, we should have a kit for music, and an another one for home theater.
Most of us have only one kit, an made some compromise :/

 

[Operandi]

They typically are simple to integrate into an audio system. If someone is going to the effort of buying a separate sub, they should already have done the necessary homework to ensure their receiver (or preamp) has the necessary Sub/LFE output - which just about every AV receiver (or preamp) that supports 5.1 surround sound has had for the last 2 or 3 decades.

Even this budget Technical Pro RX55UriBT Professional Receiver with USB RX55URIBT (bhphotovideo.com) for $170 has a Subwoofer output.

Integrating into a small room may be a challenge but again, very low frequencies are almost omni-directional so placement is much less critical.

But I fear an important factor is being overlooked here. Top quality "full range" speaker systems typically don't need a discrete subwoofer to complement them to accurately reproduce "music". But when it comes to home theater audio, where sound effects like thunder, explosions, evilness of Mordor, and "out-of-this-world" sounds need to be reproduced, the LFE (low frequency effects) provided by a good sub-woofer does become necessary.

This then involves the fact most people don't have separate music systems and home theater audio systems - unless fortunate enough to have a separate, dedicated home theater room.

So I disagree with your characterization that some people "don't like" subwoofers for music. It is that they feel they don't need them to be thoroughly entertained. Either that, or they don't know what they are missing. Or they have a better half that doesn't want that ugly box in the living room.

I'm sure more often than not it comes down to people not liking how they setup their sub, ruining the experience for them and not the sub itself but either way the result is the same and the perception that "subs are bad for music" spreads. Bass a subwoofer should be covering is omni directional but room modes are still a thing and people tend to want to hide a subwoofer away in a corner or somewhere elese where they don't have to look at it thats really less than ideal exciting room modes, hence "the subwoofer crawl", still ultimately a setup issue but sometimes you are limited to where you can (or are allowed) to put it (which is one of the nice things about a small sealed sub).

 

[Bill_Bright]

One thing I really like about my Onkyo is it came with a calibration microphone. You position it where your head will be, then start the calibration process. It automatically makes adjustments to balance the outputs to the room. It is far from perfect, but actually not too bad. But I found I needed to turn down the sub a little for my liking - in part because it caused the dishes and glass doors in the china cabinet to rattle too much!

I also have a SPL meter similar to this one. It is how I determined the Onkyo process was pretty good. However, you need to use a special DVD sound source with it. I recommend Digital Video Essentials for that.

 

[Operandi]

One thing I really like about my Onkyo is it came with a calibration microphone. You position it where your head will be, then start the calibration process. It automatically makes adjustments to balance the outputs to the room. It is far from perfect, but actually not too bad. But I found I needed to turn down the sub a little for my liking - in part because it caused the dishes and glass doors in the china cabinet to rattle too much!

I also have a SPL meter similar to this one. It is how I determined the Onkyo process was pretty good. However, you need to use a special DVD sound source with it. I recommend Digital Video Essentials for that.

Being strictly into two channel audio (movies too) the room correction stuff isn't something I've gotten to play with. Its starting to show up on some two channel gear but its typically pretty high-end integrateds. You can run Dirac Live through things like Roon and get arguably the best room correction solution there is working with anything (anything digital anyway) but its not plug and play like it is on AVRs, it is something I'd like play with at some point though.

Right now the issue is the living room is wider than it is deep and the back wall is acoustically speaking a hard / flat reflective surface, which is less than ideal and I think I'm getting a fair amount of reflective standing waves going on. To that end but not installed yet but ready to go up are some acoustic diffusers for the rear wall and a few absorption panels in the front. I also just picked up this Calibrated Measurement Microphone so I can get some before and after measurements.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Being strictly into two channel audio (movies too) the room correction stuff isn't something I've gotten to play with.

Sorry, but this really doesn't make sense. For serious listeners, room correction is a factor regardless if two channel (stereo) audio or full surround sound. So the fact you are into two channel (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that) is no reason to suggest that is a reason you are restricted from play around with correction.

Remember, when it comes to a "sound stage" - that is, where performers are playing music - with just a few exceptions with just a few bands, it is all happening in front of the audience. Most performers/bands/orchestras do NOT use surround or rear speakers, nor do they have performers in those locations. The source of all the sound originates from the stage.

And the room being wider than it is deep is not really the issue either. Yes, it is a factor for some effects but when it comes to home setups, the typical issues are things like a large upholstered sofa in front of heavy drapes on the right side of the room, and the room opening up into an adjacent dining room on the left.

If the listening room is symmetrical, and has similar reflective/absorbing materials on both sides, life is much easier when it comes to balancing out room acoustics. But except in dedicated home theater rooms, such symmetry is unlikely.

 

[80251]

The metal concerts and punk concerts I went to just seemed like a wall of high decibel sound coming from the stage.

 

[Operandi]

Sorry, but this really doesn't make sense. For serious listeners, room correction is a factor regardless if two channel (stereo) audio or full surround sound. So the fact you are into two channel (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that) is no reason to suggest that is a reason you are restricted from play around with correction.

I'm not opposed to it, it just doesn't really exist on two channel gear and AVRs loose out to dedicated two channel amps in all other aspects.

And the room being wider than it is deep is not really the issue either. Yes, it is a factor for some effects but when it comes to home setups, the typical issues are things like a large upholstered sofa in front of heavy drapes on the right side of the room, and the room opening up into an adjacent dining room on the left.

If the listening room is symmetrical, and has similar reflective/absorbing materials on both sides, life is much easier when it comes to balancing out room acoustics. But except in dedicated home theater rooms, such symmetry is unlikely.

The room being wide is good in that I'm not getting early side reflections, and I'm not exciting any room modes bass wise but being relatively shallow and not having anything on the rear wall is not good. Its not the worst room in the world but I think I can make it better by mitigating the interaction of those two primary walls playing off each other.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I'm not opposed to it, it just doesn't really exist on two channel gear

That depends on what you are listening to. If recorded music, I disagree because again, there typically are no musicians playing music behind the listeners.

For a movie sound track, where, for example, there are recorded sounds from behind the listener (a bullet ricocheting past your ears in Dancing With The Wolves, for example) then yes, it matters.

 

[Shrek]

Dancing With The Wolves, for example) then yes, it matters.

Only movie I watched over and again...

Oh no, that was Dances with Wolves ;-)

So, I rushed to see Waterworld... BIG mistake.

 

[P4-630]

Only movie I watched over and again...

Hopefully it was with a subwoofer, since that's the thread about..

 

[Shrek]

Apologies... I was off topic.

 

[Ruru]

IMO it depends where you live. I just use headphones as I live in an apartment complex, I can listen just as loud as I want without distracting my neighbours.

 

[Operandi]

That depends on what you are listening to. If recorded music, I disagree because again, there typically are no musicians playing music behind the listeners.

For a movie sound track, where, for example, there are recorded sounds from behind the listener (a bullet ricocheting past your ears in Dancing With The Wolves, for example) then yes, it matters.

In stereo two channel more to do with the relationship between direct sound from the speaker and reflected sound in the room. Due to the pattern of sound radiation pattern from the front of the speaker most speakers need to be pulled away from the front wall to image properly, how much depends on the speaker. You need some reflected sound to sound right but too much causes response peaks and destroys the stereo image. Room correction can help but for the most part its just compensating for issues in the room, and past interactions of this type of solution really only corrected the response on axis, solutions like Dirac Live are way more advanced.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Oh no, that was Dances with Wolves ;-)

Doh! You're right. Still an excellent movie regardless.

In stereo two channel more to do with the relationship between direct sound from the speaker and reflected sound in the room. Due to the pattern of sound radiation pattern from the front of the speaker most speakers need to be pulled away from the front wall to image properly, how much depends on the speaker. You need some reflected sound to sound right but too much causes response peaks and destroys the stereo image.

All of that applies equally to the front speakers in a surround sound system too.

And for the record, a decent set of front speakers (assuming a quality recording) will create a full sound stage of sound in front of the listener so it seems the sounds are coming from points spread across the stages and not from just two [speaker] locations.