It keeps getting better for Bethesda.

[Hellfire]

I actually ended up buying FO76 last night, (albeit from a third party) but only because the price has dropped so hard, I ended up just paying over £20.00 for the key, for a month old "AAA" title.

Funny thing is, it's not actually half bad.

 

[Assimilator]

Howard is right about modders being happy with the system (I'm kind of one of them), but I'd be the first to say I'd want more improvements. The additions they've made over the years have been good as far as environment goes, but not characters/movement/combat. I don't mean just animation (which is trivial, I guess). It's still just oldschool and "floaty" and doesn't physically interact with the world like I'd prefer.

Anyone who has been writing software for more than 5 minutes knows that it's not a once-off expense, it needs constant maintenance and upgrading to keep it relevant (known as "technical debt" in the software engineering profession). Just like when you buy a building you have to pay to maintain that building, otherwise it falls down.

This is something that companies whose core competency is not software, generally don't get. Anyone who has been in the unfortunate situation of having to maintain software for such companies knows that it's some of the nastiest, bug-riddled junk out there, and that's not just because programmers who end up working on such software lose their will to live. It's essentially a building full of holes in the roof because management is too cheap to pay for upkeep.

But Bethesda is a software company. They should know and understand and be intimately familiar with tech debt. They should know that they have to pay off portions of that debt every now and then, or it becomes unserviceable. Yet for years, they haven't. And now they're sitting with the "Creation Kit", which is the equivalent of a building that's been condemned because its owners couldn't be arsed to maintain it, and what is the manager of the building - Todd Howard - doing?

He's standing on the steps and telling the crowd that the building's gonna be just fine with a lick of paint, and that the holes are actually a feature because they offer convenient access to various rooms, and that the water coming in through the roof is a feature because you don't have to go to the water fountain, and that by the way look at all the cool features the building was built with that were cool 5 years ago but are expected now. And nobody is buying his BS.

If Bethesda's corporate greed doesn't kill their game development, Howard's insistence on using an outdated, broken, unfit-for-purpose turd like the Creation Kit absolutely will.

 

[StrayKAT]

I

Anyone who has been writing software for more than 5 minutes knows that it's not a once-off expense, it needs constant maintenance and upgrading to keep it relevant (known as "technical debt" in the software engineering profession). Just like when you buy a building you have to pay to maintain that building, otherwise it falls down.

This is something that companies whose core competency is not software, generally don't get. Anyone who has been in the unfortunate situation of having to maintain software for such companies knows that it's some of the nastiest, bug-riddled junk out there, and that's not just because programmers who end up working on such software lose their will to live. It's essentially a building full of holes in the roof because management is too cheap to pay for upkeep.

But Bethesda is a software company. They should know and understand and be intimately familiar with tech debt. They should know that they have to pay off portions of that debt every now and then, or it becomes unserviceable. Yet for years, they haven't. And now they're sitting with the "Creation Kit", which is the equivalent of a building that's been condemned because its owners couldn't be arsed to maintain it, and what is the manager of the building - Todd Howard - doing?

He's standing on the steps and telling the crowd that the building's gonna be just fine with a lick of paint, and that the holes are actually a feature because they offer convenient access to various rooms, and that the water coming in through the roof is a feature because you don't have to go to the water fountain, and that by the way look at all the cool features the building was built with that were cool 5 years ago but are expected now. And nobody is buying his BS.

If Bethesda's corporate greed doesn't kill their game development, Howard's insistence on using an outdated, broken, unfit-for-purpose turd like the Creation Kit absolutely will.

Well, like he said, modders have gotten used to the current system. If you could propose an entirely new engine, but used similarly designed frameworks and scripting, I'd be all ears.

I mean, it'd be easy for Microsoft to shift entirely to UNIX... but then, it wouldn't be Windows any longer. The easy part is switching. The hard part is resembling anything that came before.

And he knows he can get away with it, so long as there are superficial improvements. If the engine can have more NPCs at a time, expand the world spaces, or improve the lighting, then no one who is a fan is going to complain much. It'd technically be a new engine in function (just like the Creation engine isn't exactly Oblivion.. let alone Morrowind. Anyone saying that seems unfamiliar with any of them). Only outsiders would complain... which he doesn't give a shit about. Because they can sell 10-15 million copies just on fan loyalty.

 

[ShurikN]

Well, like he said, modders have gotten used to the current system.

Except even the modders are asking for a new engine as seen in the Yong video, where the guy literally begs for something similar to, or just plain, UE4

 

[Hellfire]

I


Well, like he said, modders have gotten used to the current system. If you could propose an entirely new engine, but used similarly designed frameworks and scripting, I'd be all ears.

I mean, it'd be easy for Microsoft to shift entirely to UNIX... but then, it wouldn't be Windows any longer. The easy part is switching. The hard part is resembling anything that came before.

And he knows he can get away with it, so long as there are superficial improvements. If the engine can have more NPCs at a time, expand the world spaces, or improve the lighting, then no one who is a fan is going to complain much. It'd technically be a new engine in function (just like the Creation engine isn't exactly Oblivion.. let alone Morrowind. Anyone saying that seems unfamiliar with any of them). Only outsiders would complain... which he doesn't give a shit about. Because they can sell 10-15 million copies just on fan loyalty.

I'd disagree, even the die hard fans are getting sick of it, I would consider myself a big die hard fan from the early days of Fallout & TES, However I am getting sick of the issues caused by them not upgrading the engine or the lack of bug fixes.

There were bugs that modders fixed in Fallout 4 and Bethesda never did... guess what, they're in 76...

The limitations of the creation kit has been show by the hatchet job they did with 76.

 

[StrayKAT]

Except even the modders are asking for a new engine as seen in the Yong video, where the guy literally begs for something similar to, or just plain, UE4

You're right.. I'm one of them. But at the same time, I feel like my arm is getting twisted into hating on Bethesda. That isn't happening. I said why. The only way it happens is if someone else made a moddable platform/fantasy series. That used to be a little more common, but it's a dying breed. I won't abandon the last company doing it... because of bugs. I'll put with them, just like I always have.

Take CDProjekt, for example. They got me to turn away from Bioware. They did the narrative RPG thing better (it's funny that the first witcher was based off of a NWN/Bioware engine btw). Until someone does this with Bethesda, I have nowhere to go.

As for YongYea, like I said... I can barely consider him a fan. How is someone nostalgic about Oblivion? Shit was like 10 years ago. What is he? 20 years or old or something? I'm not listening to kids.

 

[Hellfire]

You're right.. I'm one of them. But at the same time, I feel like my arm is getting twisted into hating on Bethesda. That isn't happening. I said why. The only way it happens is if someone else made a moddable platform/fantasy series. That used to be a little more common, but it's a dying breed. I won't abandon the last company doing it... because of bugs. lol. I'll put with them, just like I always have.

Take CDProjekt, for example. They got me to turn away from Bioware. They did the narrative RPG thing better (it's funny that the first witcher was based off of a NWN/Bioware engine btw).

As for YongYea, like I said... I can barely consider him a fan. How is someone nostalgic about Oblivion? Shit was like 10 years ago. What is he? 20 years or old or something? I'm not listening to kids.

But where do you draw the line at letting them get away with stuff? Bugs is one thing, no client side anti cheat is even another, but unencrypted IP's releasing private information to the public?

I agree with you, I'm not HATING on them, But they have royally screwed the pooch on this whole ordeal. The company has clearly not been thinking straight for a while.

 

[ShurikN]

As for YongYea, like I said... I can barely consider him a fan. How is someone nostalgic about Oblivion? Shit was like 10 years ago. What is he? 20 years or old or something? I'm not listening to kids.

I mean, I just pointed out to the content in his video, because he shows different interviews with regards to the engine. Whether he's a fan or nostalgic I don't really care. I personally played and finished Oblivion twice and do not feel nostalgia or have any sentimentality emotions attached to it.

 

[StrayKAT]

I mean, I just pointed out to the content in his video, because he shows different interviews with regards to the engine. Whether he's a fan or nostalgic I don't really care. I personally played and finished Oblivion twice and do not feel nostalgia or have any sentimentality emotions attached to it.

I'm kind of screwing around. I like Oblivion myself obviously.. It just seemed like he was trying to be "oldschool" and appealing to how long he has tolerated their engine... but it came off as silly to me. I've been putting up with their software for twice as long as he has apparently.

But where do you draw the line at letting them get away with stuff? Bugs is one thing, no client side anti cheat is even another, but unencrypted IP's releasing private information to the public?

I agree with you, I'm not HATING on them, But they have royally screwed the pooch on this whole ordeal. The company has clearly not been thinking straight for a while.

Like I said, I draw the line when I see something constructive/have alternatives. I don't get anything out of just straight up walking away.

 

[Vayra86]

You're about all of that, but I'll still love their games... even if they are technically frustrating. No one does what they do. There's a thousand open world games out there, but none are as moddable or openended. I'd just be screwing myself if I stopped playing Bethesda games. Because there anything resembling an alternative. Not even a little. I'm pretty much on board no matter what.

The only reason I stayed from FO76 isn't because of Bethesda. It's because of other people. lol. I'm glad I'm not too close to it, because I probably would begin hating them directly if I was a victim of this breach.

But that sentiment is precisely why Todd Howard pulls the same stunt every time. He knows his audience well, Bethesda knows the audience well. And the audience is being played. Its time to understand and recognize that, and act upon it. The alternative is that you will forever be having this technical debt and crappy engine, and the content will certainly not improve. This also impacts the fruits of modding labor, that will quickly and sharply drop in attractiveness. One thing leads to another and lack or progress will kill the userbase which in turn will kill the mod community.

By giving Bethesda benefit of the doubt, you're just postponing the inevitable. If today isn't a good time for modders to get to grips with a new framework, when IS it a good time? When is the comfort zone of modders going to immediately affect the playerbase? I think that moment was Fallout 4, and you can see it in how actively it is being modded compared to, for example, Skyrim.

Also, you act like Creation/Gamebryo is the only engine that allows extensive modding, when that is entirely not the case. Virtually every game can be provided with dev tools and script hooks. Take a look at Total War, for example.

 

[StrayKAT]

But that sentiment is precisely why Todd Howard pulls the same stunt every time. He knows his audience well, Bethesda knows the audience well. And the audience is being played. Its time to understand and recognize that, and act upon it. The alternative is that you will forever be having this technical debt and crappy engine, and the content will certainly not improve. This also impacts the fruits of modding labor, that will quickly and sharply drop in attractiveness. One thing leads to another and lack or progress will kill the userbase which in turn will kill the mod community.

It's a dysfunctional relationship, I guess

But like I keep saying, all anyone has to do is make another game that does the same thing. People would leave in droves if that happened.

Like that vid I posted earlier (about emergence) says, there are a lot of games with similar open world elements these days.. but the open aspects are not system wide (let alone moddable), and most developers still can't restrain themselves from playing "Director" and scripting a lot of the narrative sequences (thus, segregating the open world aspects from the story). That's kind of the Rockstar route of doing things.. which is just as good, but still different enough for me to not get my "fix".

 

[Hellfire]

On the 12 days of Failout, Bethesda gave to me
12 critical errors
11 reused assets
10 player servers
9 Frames per second
8 Free DLCs
7 Deleted features
6 Empty regions
5 Hundred Atoms
40% off
3 HD Remakes
2 Star ratings

And a SORRY, NO REFUNDS policy

Stolen but very suitable

 

[jboydgolfer]

We all know bethesda has released "buggy" products on more than one occasion, but 76 is in a whole different category. I can deal with bugs, I can deal with a glitchy game engine, hell i can deal with "it will get better with updates", or "these are features" . Sadly, 76 isn't just a case of a few things. Mr Howard announced game "features", that I can only interpret as lying, or in the least very misleading . All the above reasons, combined with "customer personal information sharing day", has left many gamers with no remaining "good will" for them, meaning the next game better be indicative of what we would expect of a fallout game (prior to October 2018), or they might be getting tickets to the electronic arts after party.

I love the previous FO titles, i just want things back on track. No I don't want the company to crash and burn, or the series to die. I just want it back, in good condition, i imagine bethesda in the montage in Rocky ,when he's training in the mountains ,lifting logs and stuff , & then comes back strong aF, & releases a beastly FO game

 

[FreedomEclipse]

Anyone who has been writing software for more than 5 minutes knows that it's not a once-off expense, it needs constant maintenance and upgrading to keep it relevant (known as "technical debt" in the software engineering profession). Just like when you buy a building you have to pay to maintain that building, otherwise it falls down.

This is something that companies whose core competency is not software, generally don't get. Anyone who has been in the unfortunate situation of having to maintain software for such companies knows that it's some of the nastiest, bug-riddled junk out there, and that's not just because programmers who end up working on such software lose their will to live. It's essentially a building full of holes in the roof because management is too cheap to pay for upkeep.

But Bethesda is a software company. They should know and understand and be intimately familiar with tech debt. They should know that they have to pay off portions of that debt every now and then, or it becomes unserviceable. Yet for years, they haven't. And now they're sitting with the "Creation Kit", which is the equivalent of a building that's been condemned because its owners couldn't be arsed to maintain it, and what is the manager of the building - Todd Howard - doing?

He's standing on the steps and telling the crowd that the building's gonna be just fine with a lick of paint, and that the holes are actually a feature because they offer convenient access to various rooms, and that the water coming in through the roof is a feature because you don't have to go to the water fountain, and that by the way look at all the cool features the building was built with that were cool 5 years ago but are expected now. And nobody is buying his BS.

If Bethesda's corporate greed doesn't kill their game development, Howard's insistence on using an outdated, broken, unfit-for-purpose turd like the Creation Kit absolutely will.

Part of the question should be if Bethesda should be charging the prices they do for their games if they only put in half the effort to make the game. Theyve used the same engine, textures, sprites and other things in their games for years. while leaving it to the modding community to fix the same bugs that appear in every release that uses the same engine every year.

If youre going to make the modding community do all the work that they cant be arsed to do like bug fixing. then surely they shouldnt be charging $60 for the lazy effort they put into it.

Im not trying to take away how fun bethesda games can be, Ive played Oblivion, most if not all the fallouts and skyrim to a lesser degree but while I enjoyed those titles. I could never really understand the hype surrounding the vanilla game. Some of the greatest fun to be had are user made mods for the game. some of them which are very very good which features NPCs with their own community made voice lines.

A lot of love and passion from the community went into making oblivion, fallout and skyrim as great as they are and while Bethesda deserves some credit for providing the ideal platforms for their games to grow. Theyve become incredibly lazy and complacent.

Of course a new engine would divide the community. Some modders might hate it because it would mean they would need to start from scratch again. but if a new engine had so much better potential then the previous it replaces then I doubt modders would be mad for long... after all, its a change for the better and Bethesda's decade old engine which has allowed them to rake in the profits while putting in minimal effort which theyve also probably done no maintenance or work on really need to be put to sleep.

 

[Assimilator]

Part of the question should be if Bethesda should be charging the prices they do for their games if they only put in half the effort to make the game. Theyve used the same engine, textures, sprites and other things in their games for years. while leaving it to the modding community to fix the same bugs that appear in every release that uses the same engine every year.

If youre going to make the modding community do all the work that they cant be arsed to do like bug fixing. then surely they shouldnt be charging $60 for the lazy effort they put into it.

Im not trying to take away how fun bethesda games can be, Ive played Oblivion, most if not all the fallouts and skyrim to a lesser degree but while I enjoyed those titles. I could never really understand the hype surrounding the vanilla game. Some of the greatest fun to be had are user made mods for the game. some of them which are very very good which features NPCs with their own community made voice lines.

A lot of love and passion from the community went into making oblivion, fallout and skyrim as great as they are and while Bethesda deserves some credit for providing the ideal platforms for their games to grow. Theyve become incredibly lazy and complacent.

Of course a new engine would divide the community. Some modders might hate it because it would mean they would need to start from scratch again. but if a new engine had so much better potential then the previous it replaces then I doubt modders would be mad for long... after all, its a change for the better and Bethesda's decade old engine which has allowed them to rake in the profits while putting in minimal effort which theyve also probably done no maintenance or work on really need to be put to sleep.

I said, jokingly, after Fallout 4's release that the next Bethesda game would just be an open sandbox with zero content, and then modders would provide. Then they released Fallout 76 and it wasn't a joke anymore.

And the kicker for '76 is that mods probably won't be permitted, because they give an unfair advantage to people who use them vs those who don't. World of Warcraft made this work somewhat with their "addons", but then WoW isn't a FPS where the enemies are other players, it's a third-person NPC grind.

As for Bethesda continually charging $60 for products of ever-decreasing value, the fact that '76's price has been dropped to $35 (nearly halved) almost everywhere would suggest that they are aware that they have been taking the piss and can't continue to charge a "AAA" price for what is very much not a "AAA" game. That won't stop them trying, of course.

 

[sepheronx]

Edit: Have to say though, some of these gamers that show themselves shouldn't, and they are annoying as all hell.