Lithium batteries are getting cheaper

[Shrek]

$30
Amazon.com: NERMAK 12V 7Ah (7.2Ah) Lithium LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery, 2000+ Cycles Lithium Iron Phosphate Rechargeable Battery for Solar Powar, Lighting, Power Wheels, Fish Finder and More, Built-in 8A BMS : Automotive
compared to around $20 for lead-acid


Now if it is true that they last

• 2000 cycles

compared to

• 300-500

for lead-acid, one might argue that lithium batteries are cheaper in the long run for UPS use.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Hmmm, interesting that it says 12.8V on the label. I know most small 12VDC chargers actually output somewhere between 13.4 and 13.7DC ± a .1 or .2 (some up to 14.4V). And I know most standard 12V SLA batteries typically read a bit above 12V when new and fully charged. So it should not be a problem. I just don't recall seeing anything other 12V printed them.

After a little digging I see this one is even $8 cheaper and claims 3000 deep charge cycles.

 

[iameatingjam]

Holy moly. When I was about 20 I had an electric scooter, and I had had that scooter since I was 16, so its range was getting lower and lower. It was a lead acid battery and I wanted to replace it with a lithium battery so I walked down to the hardware store, asked the price, and walked out with a lead acid battery. I can't remember what the price was. But it shocked me. I swear it was over $1700 canadian dollars. possibly more? And this was around 10ish years ago.

Still... $30? Isn't that kinda low? Even for a lead acid battery? EDIT: Erm kinda forgot about the whole conversion thing

 

[wolf]

You just want to be sure that if it's for a UPS, or in any other fashion how will it be charged and is that compatible with LiFePO4 chemistry and voltage/amperage needs. Many things are, many also aren't but if it's a non issue the tech does seem at a good spot for affordability and practicality now.

I picked up a 30AH LiFePO4 about 18 months ago for $162 AUD / 110 USD (based on exchange at the time) and it has been a phenomenal hobby / camping battery for me. Useful for powering stuff I tinker with or 12v accessories, and our camping fridge. It'll easily do 36+ hours powering the fridge in summer, and 72++ in winter given the compressor doesn't need to work nearly as hard.

 

[9087125]

The primary reason why they are so cheap is because in China there are literally multiply grades of quality for many products. There is top quality, medium, and bottom end. They make low grades available as they know there are always a niche market for it. There are so many people always looking for the cheapest buy they can get and that is where the money is.

When LiFePO4 batteries first came out mainstream about a decade ago the diy cells and also top brand batteries hardly sold at all, the chemistry was considered exotic and out of reach. No one wanted to spend 2grand on a 12v battery.
Then things started to change from the Chinese cell manufactures all the way to suppliers, they started making them for much cheaper prices and know everyone is getting them. Another secret to their success is Lifepo4 naturally has a very long lifespan and this helps to hide the cheap Chinese quality. On the other end lead Acid has the massive problem of Sulphation which means if not cycled perfectly with correct voltages and duration of elevated voltages even top of the line US batteries can die within just 150 realworld cycles. So made in china lithium is on fire and now even the producers (at least in my area) no longer assemble them, they just design them and its all made and assembled in china.


No one really knows how many cycles lifepo4 last, not without actual science anyway. So far the cycle figures are just an assertion. No real studies have been done besides a few datasets from individuals. I just brought a very pricy "well engineered" 180ah 12v and honestly I have no idea how long it will last. Could last 2000 cycles or maybe only 800. When this chemistry started to come out many armchair experts in the Lead Acid & electrical solar community were highly skeptical, most had no realworld experience with them but many ordinary people using the stuff showed they actually last alot longer than the "experts" thought. The key is making sure they are well looked after and babied, abused they dont last long.

In short the factors that determine cycle life are charge rates (higher rates degrade the battery, like 0.5C+), DoD (staying in the 10-90 window is best but this practice is misunderstood, lithium always gives the max throughput when cycled between 40-60 or 40-70), the time kept at elevated SoC/high voltages (this degrades the electrolyte and SEI layer and also speeds up side reactions that permanently reduce capacity), exposure to sustained high temps, capacity of cell (lower capacity tend to last longer especially under hard loads with no cooling), cell format (cylindricals do better at high c rates) and just dumb luck. In EVs, they actually pre-heat the cells before fast charging, then quickly cool them off after which all helps alot minimizing the degradation.

Top of line Chinese brand prismatic in the diy world are known for 1000-2000 to 60-80%DoD in realworld offgrid, there seems to be a large variation owing to the average quality but also how because of just many factors their are in operation.
Top of the line made in japan consumer products were alot more but also alot more pricy. The golden rule with all batteries is you get what you pay for, you cant rush or cheat quality, not with chemistry anyway. If you want to hammer your cells like in a cordless drill or EV you must get top quality.
Top of the line made in japan and korea conventional 3.6V cylindricals like LiNiMnCoO2 can do 400-1200 depending on use case and DoD. Back in the early mid 2000s when I got into high end flashlights it was probably half for these types of cells. Given how big lithium has gotten with RE, they are making big progress with studies showing even more cycle life than Lifepo4, this is a bigdeal as the conventional lithium ion has much higher energy density than lifepo4.

However, the same is true for Lead Acid, there are many grades of quality and on the extreme end some brands are rated for 3500 cycles to 50%DoD. I eventually tossed all my lead acid batteries due to the constant upkeep of maintaining them.

Rightnow 12V Lifepo4 batteries sit at 123-149wh/kg specific capacity on the higher end vs 35-50 for the best lead acid AGM and Flooded deepcycle. So they are an amazing chemistry and what makes this chemistry so good is its open source nature, basically any Lead Acid charging gear (at least quality gear set properly) can charge Lifepo4 no issues, all thanks to their voltage profile being very similar to Lead Acid.

 

[Vincero]

Hmmm, interesting that it says 12.8V on the label. I know most small 12VDC chargers actually output somewhere between 13.4 and 13.7DC ± a .1 or .2 (some up to 14.4V). And I know most standard 12V SLA batteries typically read a bit above 12V when new and fully charged. So it should not be a problem. I just don't recall seeing anything other 12V printed them.

After a little digging I see this one is even $8 cheaper and claims 3000 deep charge cycles.

These LiFePo batteries (should) have BCMs that manage this. The BCMs are designed to work with the normal float charging methodology of most SLA chargers although I've seen some state that their peak cut-off/safety voltage is say 14.3V but some chargers may hit 14.5V.
The 12.8V is their normal rated voltage shown to a load (much in the same way a 12V SLA battery is never 12V - indeed its usually above that value within its 'good charge' window) - the other difference these will have is that the BCM will cut off output once the cell voltages go too low unlike a normal SLA which will not have that capability built-in.

 

[dgianstefani]

I wouldn't trust cheapo chinesium lithium batteries.

I've used and built mobile/marine solar/lithium systems for more than a decade and what you pay is what you get.

Lithium Leisure Battery - Fogstar Drift 12v 105Ah

Lightweight 12V 105Ah LiFePO4 lithium leisure battery with Bluetooth, built-in heater, and 10-year warranty. Perfect for campervans and off-grid use.

www.fogstar.co.uk

This is more in line with an appropriate price.

 

[KLiKzg]

I would not put that in the car! As those Li batteries operate up to 60°C, while under the hood of a car is more than that!

But there is alternative: sodium batteries. Yes, they are a little bit heavier, but they do not have so much heat dissipation from charging / discharging & have more cycles (usually).
Example: https://nadionenergy.com/products/lead-acid-replacement/

 

[dragontamer5788]

Reminds me of the no-brand NiMH batteries that were utterly crap in practice. 3000mAH no-name Amazon bullshit NiMH was worthless compared to a 2000mAH Eneloop.

100% buy the Eneloop every time, even if its 4x or 5x more expensive. The 3000mAH bullshit no-name Amazon seller is lying about the specs and practical performance will be far worse.

I know LiFePo4 is the "next big chemistry" for batteries. I'm sure the tech exists. But now comes the practical matter of figuring out the liars and bullshitters. People who offer the lowest price on Amazon / Alibaba / etc. etc. are NOT to be trusted.

---------

My understanding btw, is that high-quality Lead Acid should still be slightly cheaper than LiFePo4, though a well made LiFePo4 should last longer and thus win over the years. Emphasis on well-made.

However, the same is true for Lead Acid, there are many grades of quality and on the extreme end some brands are rated for 3500 cycles to 50%DoD. I eventually tossed all my lead acid batteries due to the constant upkeep of maintaining them.

I don't think AGM or Gel-type Lead Acids had any maintenance. Then again, flooded Lead Acid still has the most cycles / best deep discharge specs so I guess if you want "the best" Lead Acid it requires maintenance.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I would not put that in the car! As those Li batteries operate up to 60°C, while under the hood of a car is more than that!

Where did you see that 60°C spec? Got a link? I am not doubting it, just wondering where you saw that figure.

Also, that is not a car battery. I note EVs and hybrids use Li batteries so I don't see the problem AS LONG AS the car's charging and electrical systems among other requirements, are designed for use with a Li battery.

For sure, as noted in my signature, "Heat is the bane of all electronics" - and that includes batteries. And for sure, Li batteries have a lower tolerance for extreme heat than typical SLA car batteries. But that is exactly why the better Li batteries designed for car-use have internal cooling features to keep them from overheating. That said, the engine compartment should be designed to support Li batteries too - which means some sort of insulation from extreme engine heat.

Plus, one of the bigger advantages to Li batteries in cars is they maintain a higher CCA (cold cranking amperage) at very cold temperatures.

Bottom line, you can not - well, should not just drop in a Li battery in place of a traditional car battery without first ensuring the necessary charging and cooling requirements have been properly addressed first.

 

[KLiKzg]

Where did you see that 60°C spec? Got a link? I am not doubting it, just wondering where you saw that figure.

Also, that is not a car battery. I note EVs and hybrids use Li batteries so I don't see the problem AS LONG AS the car's charging and electrical systems among other requirements, are designed for use with a Li battery.

For sure, as noted in my signature, "Heat is the bane of all electronics" - and that includes batteries. And for sure, Li batteries have a lower tolerance for extreme heat than typical SLA car batteries. But that is exactly why the better Li batteries designed for car-use have internal cooling features to keep them from overheating. That said, the engine compartment should be designed to support Li batteries too - which means some sort of insulation from extreme engine heat.

Plus, one of the bigger advantages to Li batteries in cars is they maintain a higher CCA (cold cranking amperage) at very cold temperatures.

Bottom line, you can not - well, should not just drop in a Li battery in place of a traditional car battery without first ensuring the necessary charging and cooling requirements have been properly addressed first.

Well, I used to work in Rimac...& been developing an update of DOK-ING XD with new BEV powertrain. So I actually do know something about BEV & Li-ion chemistry.

If you do quote CCA, then it is...especially if you encase is that way in order to fit into cases when LA batteries.

Well, engine compartment is designed to be cooled, from heat from exhaust...as exhaust fumes are around ~750°C after exit from engine! In order to maintain that, coolant in ICE is about ~90°C. So everything under the hood need to be rated up to 110~120°C to be resistant to that heat. Including the battery!

& how would you address the proper way of cooling? This is not 993, who had total redesign for his HEV version of a car.
Would you do a total redesign?

Or believe me that Na-ion batteries are rated up to 85~90°C now. & quite a bit safer then LiFePO4 or that (hazard friendly) Li-NMC?

I know LiFePo4 is the "next big chemistry" for batteries. I'm sure the tech exists. But now comes the practical matter of figuring out the liars and bullshitters. People who offer the lowest price on Amazon / Alibaba / etc. etc. are NOT to be trusted.

LiFePO4 is "next big fireball" for batteries, when it combines with heat from ICE.
Li-NCM are even worse, from that aspect!

There is hope with higher density Na-ion or newest Li-ion which does not burn violently (from South Korea).

I don't think AGM or Gel-type Lead Acids had any maintenance. Then again, flooded Lead Acid still has the most cycles / best deep discharge specs so I guess if you want "the best" Lead Acid it requires maintenance.

AGM have a small issue: if drained, they will never chargeback to 100%. So if you for example leave the lights on a car (by chance), then you can forget that AGM battery!

 

[Bill_Bright]

as exhaust fumes are around ~750°C after exit from engine!

Oh come on! That's just silly. Besides the fact the exhaust exiting the engine might hit 1200°F (~650°C), it is just silly of you to suggest those extreme temperatures would come any where near any car battery! So why would you even suggest that except to obfuscate the issue with total BS?

And do note, I never said these batteries should be used in the engine compartment of a car. In fact, I said they should not be used - unless the car is properly designed for them.

So you don't have a link to substantiate your claim. Got it. Moving on.

 

[KLiKzg]

Oh come on! That's just silly. Besides the fact the exhaust exiting the engine might hit 1200°F (~650°C), it is just silly of you to suggest those extreme temperatures would come any where near any car battery! So why would you even suggest that except to obfuscate the issue with total BS?

And do note, I never said these batteries should be used in the engine compartment of a car. In fact, I said they should not be used - unless the car is properly designed for them.

So you don't have a link to substantiate your claim. Got it. Moving on.

You either playing stupid or do not read my posts completely, again here is the picture:

Well, most people here is talking about putting CCA rated batteries in cars. I advocate against it!
So, what is your problem with this?

For which claim? There have been many. As a mech.eng., which worked in automotive industry - I have plenty of experiences.

 

[Bill_Bright]

You either playing stupid or do not read my posts completely, again here is the picture:

I am not playing stupid and I did read your posts. So right back at you.

What you doing? Why are you acting so defensive and stupid?

I NEVER said those batteries should be used under the hood - UNLESS the car was designed for them. In other words, I agreed with you. What don't you understand about that?

For which claim?

Do you not understand your own words? Read my post #10 above where I quoted YOUR CLAIM that "those batteries" operate up to 60°C. I specifically said I don't doubt you. I just wanted to see where you got your figures about "those batteries".

As a mech.eng., which worked in automotive industry - I have plenty of experiences.

Big whoopie. Sadly, lots of people come to these sites claiming all sorts of experience. We have no way of proving any of it. You can follow the link in my signature to see I have some experience with electronics. Yet I sure don't pretend to know it all, nor do I expect everyone to just believe me because I say so.

So I don't know what your argument is or who you are arguing with. In any case, it is not helping the OP. So once again, moving on.

 

[KLiKzg]

I am not playing stupid and I did read your posts. So right back at you.

What you doing? Why are you acting so defensive and stupid?

I NEVER said those batteries should be used under the hood - UNLESS the car was designed for them. In other words, I agreed with you. What don't you understand about that?

Then, why quote & reference only for exhaust gasses, when I said it is because of those gasses that the temp. under the hood rises up to a water-glycol temp?! Seems to me that you did not understand or that you are playing malignant.

Do you not understand your own words? Read my post #10 above where I quoted YOUR CLAIM that "those batteries" operate up to 60°C. I specifically said I don't doubt you. I just wanted to see where you got your figures about "those batteries".

Well, if you have been doing some time in automotive industry with BEV, like I had, then you would know.

But here is one of the spec.sheets for LiFePO4 battery: https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/280ah-lithium-cell.html
Check specs, it said that it works up to 55°C. Is that good enough for you or do you need more proof?

Big whoopie. Sadly, lots of people come to these sites claiming all sorts of experience. We have no way of proving any of it. You can follow the link in my signature to see I have some experience with electronics. Yet I sure don't pretend to know it all, nor do I expect everyone to just believe me because I say so.

So I don't know what your argument is or who you are arguing with. In any case, it is not helping the OP. So once again, moving on.

Well, people have not been working on development of BEV that smashed lots of Guiness World of Records. But I have done that!
See where I live, add 2 & 2 together...you will get it.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Wow! How many times does one have to say they agree with you before you stop arguing with them?

You have a problem, @KLiKzg and it ain't me.

Move along.