Mantle API presentation by AMD, DICE and Oxide - AMD Summit 2013

[BiggieShady]

Awesome. Thank you sir. I still don't understand why AMD would spend that kind of money to develop and API just to give it away as open source. Just doesn't make sense. There HAS to be an angle to it I'm ignorant of. Where the hell is the old goat to simplify things for me?!

I think the reward for AMD would be the adoption of mantle by Nvidia and Intel itself, since at that point AMD will (probably) have the advantage of being the most experienced player using an API that is used by all, resulting in a competitive advantage by itself. The advantage will probably weaken over time, but it might just gain AMD some additional sales/marketshare.

Free licensing is Mantle's only hope for market wide adoption ... even with free license, I'm sure Nvidia will wait out a year or so to see how Mantle is working out for early adopters. But they will support it in 2015. Why do I think so? If AMD knew surely that Microsoft would push for Dx12 with optimized latencies and better mutithreading, they wouldn't invest in Mantle. So AMD knows that DX is at dead end, or Mantle is free byproduct of PS4 API development. Either way, nvidia, not being in the console business, will eventually have to decide to support Mantle after they see how "healthy" the development of DX12 really is.

I am positive I have read this is not opensource and is hardware specific, meaning it will take more then just a software licence to use.

It is hardware specific in this version, but it's not like that by design. Currently it's not supported by any other driver than AMD latest beta only for GCN cards.
nvidia Kepler and amd GCN chips are very similar from the outside (both adhere to dx11.1 specs) so technically mantle can be supported in drivers for any dx11 capable gpu.

 

[bpgt64]

Free licensing is Mantle's only hope for market wide adoption ... even with free license, I'm sure Nvidia will wait out a year or so to see how Mantle is working out for early adopters. But they will support it in 2015. Why do I think so? If AMD knew surely that Microsoft would push for Dx12 with optimized latencies and better mutithreading, they wouldn't invest in Mantle. So AMD knows that DX is at dead end, or Mantle is free byproduct of PS4 API development. Either way, nvidia, not being in the console business, will eventually have to decide to support Mantle after they see how "healthy" the development of DX12 really is.



It is hardware specific in this version, but it's not like that by design. Currently it's not supported by any other driver than AMD latest beta only for GCN cards.
nvidia Kepler and amd GCN chips are very similar from the outside (both adhere to dx11.1 specs) so technically mantle can be supported in drivers for any dx11 capable gpu.

How can you say that Mantle is a bi-product of the PS4 Api development when it can't, or isn't being implemented on PS4.

 

[MxPhenom 216]

Free licensing is Mantle's only hope for market wide adoption ... even with free license, I'm sure Nvidia will wait out a year or so to see how Mantle is working out for early adopters. But they will support it in 2015. Why do I think so? If AMD knew surely that Microsoft would push for Dx12 with optimized latencies and better mutithreading, they wouldn't invest in Mantle. So AMD knows that DX is at dead end, or Mantle is free byproduct of PS4 API development. Either way, nvidia, not being in the console business, will eventually have to decide to support Mantle after they see how "healthy" the development of DX12 really is.



It is hardware specific in this version, but it's not like that by design. Currently it's not supported by any other driver than AMD latest beta only for GCN cards.
nvidia Kepler and amd GCN chips are very similar from the outside (both adhere to dx11.1 specs) so technically mantle can be supported in drivers for any dx11 capable gpu.

Mantle compliments DirectX. When Mantle is used as the game API, DirectX is still there. It does not go away. DirectX will not be going anywhere. DirectX is not only used in games, but its used as the graphical component for almost everything Microsoft. Windows, etc.

 

[xenocide]

Free licensing is Mantle's only hope for market wide adoption ... even with free license, I'm sure Nvidia will wait out a year or so to see how Mantle is working out for early adopters. But they will support it in 2015. Why do I think so? If AMD knew surely that Microsoft would push for Dx12 with optimized latencies and better mutithreading, they wouldn't invest in Mantle. So AMD knows that DX is at dead end, or Mantle is free byproduct of PS4 API development. Either way, nvidia, not being in the console business, will eventually have to decide to support Mantle after they see how "healthy" the development of DX12 really is.

Microsoft hasn't bothered to push out DX12 because very few companies even bother to make games that are DX11. Developers making multiplatform games generally stick to DX9.0c, and the adoption rate for DX10/11 has been miserable. But, the next generation of consoles just rolled out, and they are DX11 compatible, which should make them DX12 compatible looking forward, and push developers to actually make DX11/12 games.

 

[BiggieShady]

How can you say that Mantle is a bi-product of the PS4 Api development when it can't, or isn't being implemented on PS4.

Oh right, I am supposed to believe it's totally unrelated ... I didn't say it was direct code branch of PS4 API project ... more like using the same practices and principles, because 'Mantle' is a market name and API is application programming interface ... after all they did say that Mantle was designed with consoles in mind and that extra code Mantle enabled app requires is already being commonly used even in last gen console games (in similar fashion, mind you, there is no direct porting).
I did say it might be a free byproduct, when I should've put quotes around "free".

Mantle compliments DirectX. When Mantle is used as the game API, DirectX is still there. It does not go away. DirectX will not be going anywhere. DirectX is not only used in games, but its used as the graphical component for almost everything Microsoft. Windows, etc.

No, it's not going anywhere, currently it's just in danger of becoming less relevant

Microsoft hasn't bothered to push out DX12 because very few companies even bother to make games that are DX11. Developers making multiplatform games generally stick to DX9.0c, and the adoption rate for DX10/11 has been miserable. But, the next generation of consoles just rolled out, and they are DX11 compatible, which should make them DX12 compatible looking forward, and push developers to actually make DX11/12 games.

IMO, DX12 doesn't need to bring bunch of new features and change how old ones are used ... what it needs is less new features, less api changes and more optimizations and internal changes. That way DX12, while being late with its optimizations, would have no adoption issues. The question remains how fast is Mantle going to be adopted.

 

[HTC]

Some dude @ XS tested starswarm Mantle VS DX with a R9-290X, a Tyan S7010 and Dual Xeon X5570s clocked at 3.2 (turbo) under full load, and 3.33ghz with 1-2 cores loaded.

Interesting results: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums...-Mantle-Vs-DirectX-11-Star-Swarm-With-R9-290X

 

[xenocide]

The only interesting thing I saw was that Motion Blur cripples DirectX. The massive gains are nearly squashed when that single feature is turned off.

 

[the54thvoid]

The only interesting thing I saw was that Motion Blur cripples DirectX. The massive gains are nearly squashed when that single feature is turned off.

Never use it - completely unrealistic. My daily life never sees this effect. My eyes and brain work correctly.

 

[RCoon]

Never use it - completely unrealistic. My daily life never sees this effect. My eyes and brain work correctly.

That, and the fact it's the most hated video option in existence. To this day I don't know anyone that uses it, or even likes it. About as useful as PhysX in Arkham Oranges. More blur, MOAR SMOKE!

 

[xenocide]

That, and the fact it's the most hated video option in existence. To this day I don't know anyone that uses it, or even likes it.

Turning it off is preferable in most games. I have yet to encounter one where it really enhanced the experience...

 

[HammerON]

Never use it - completely unrealistic. My daily life never sees this effect. My eyes and brain work correctly.

Same here. I disable in all games that has the feature. Gives me a headache if left on.

 

[15th Warlock]

I thought motion blur was created in the PS2/Xbox era to hide the hideous frame drops those consoles had, funny how now it's considered a "feature" by some developers

 

[xenocide]

Not trying to necropost (granted it's only been 2 weeks for this topic) but some updates on Mantle and the Graphics API environment that I found interesting.

1. Thief has delayed it's Mantle implementation. That makes 2 consecutive AAA games plagued with technical problems at launch that have delayed Mantle implementation. This is not what AMD wants to see.

2. DirectX and OpenGL are going to announce efforts to allow lower levels of access through their API, and reduce driver overhead at GDC. DirectX lowering overhead, DirectX will be going lower level--"to the metal", and OpenGL reducing driver overhead with support from Nvidia, Intel, and ... AMD?

 

[erocker]

1. Thief is a mess of a game apparently anyways.

2. Good news for everyone!

 

[xenocide]

1. Thief is a mess of a game apparently anyways.

How many titles until it becomes a trend though, at least in the public and development communities minds. Games developed with DirectX and Mantle support are so far 2/2 in being buggy messes of a game.

2. Good news for everyone!

I completely agree! Better performance with pre-existing API's/technologies sounds fantastic.

 

[TheoneandonlyMrK]

How many titles until it becomes a trend though, at least in the public and development communities minds. Games developed with DirectX and Mantle support are so far 2/2 in being buggy messes of a game.



I completely agree! Better performance with pre-existing API's/technologies sounds fantastic.

I can only talk of bf4 because I don't own thief but bf4 is innately bugy in dx or mantle that doesn't make it Amd's fault but dices .its not the api its developer's that requires a prod.
See how yet again Amd leads the sheep out of their skulky sheds and into the future.
Respec the red.

 

[RCoon]

I completely agree! Better performance with pre-existing API's/technologies sounds fantastic

AMD charge into the fray with good intentions. Even if mantle flops because of poor implementation by devs, at least it's encouraged DX and OpenGL to be more efficient. Can't fault them for that.

 

[BiggieShady]

AMD charge into the fray with good intentions. Even if mantle flops because of poor implementation by devs, at least it's encouraged DX and OpenGL to be more efficient. Can't fault them for that.

They did stir up things a little bit. I also believe that BF4 and Thief are both games with problems in development unrelated to Mantle (BF4 was kind of rushed and Thief was changed several times over). Really bad choices for presenting Mantle. At least that Oxide Nitrous engine demo shows Mantle can work really well.

 

[RoutedScripter]

Boom!

http://cryengine.com/news/crytek-partner-with-amd-to-bring-mantle-support-to-cryengine

 

[the54thvoid]

Boom?

Nvidia also have collaborated with their gameworks stuff I think. What we don't want to see is development being fought over like divorcing parents.
Open standards would be preferable and by open I also mean, industry standard.

Let's see if Cryengine can do better than DICE and frostbite. And by that I mean release a bug free game with excellent UNIVERSAL driver provision.

 

[Vario]

What amazes me is with Direct X, BF4 at 1080P with Ultra looks horrible yet taxes my system higher than any other game I own. Is this the case with Mantle as well? I was playing Hard Reset yesterday and that game not only looks better but it uses a lot less resources.

 

[BiggieShady]

I was playing Hard Reset yesterday and that game not only looks better but it uses a lot less resources.

Hard Reset has very high texture resolutions because of lots of texture re-using (sci-fi environment) and a world that can be effectively culled to keep the frame rate high. Their engine is also very advanced http://www.dsogaming.com/interviews...-optimizations-mantle-mod-tools-future-plans/

 

[Xzibit]

GameSpot - Report: EA secures rights to Titanfall 2

What if its true. EA replaces Source Engine with Frostbite and supports Mantle

 

[xenocide]

Hard Reset has very high texture resolutions because of lots of texture re-using (sci-fi environment) and a world that can be effectively culled to keep the frame rate high. Their engine is also very advanced http://www.dsogaming.com/interviews/flying-wild-hog-talks-shadow-warrior-64bit-cpu-optimizations-mantle-mod-tools-future-plans/

I imagine that is publishing rights because I think Respawn insisted on retaining intellectual property rights to Titanfall. EA had publishing rights for the current game so it's not surprising they would get them since the first game was insanely successful so far.

What amazes me is with Direct X, BF4 at 1080P with Ultra looks horrible yet taxes my system higher than any other game I own. Is this the case with Mantle as well? I was playing Hard Reset yesterday and that game not only looks better but it uses a lot less resources.

That sounds like something on your end. I have a weaker system than yours and the game looks great on Ultra for me but is still playable. The engine is very well optimized and requires you to spend some time fiddling with settings to find a good medium. I had to adjust antialiasing settings a lot to keep the game playable.