Molex connectors nowadays?

[RealNeil]

Virtually nothing, except HDDs and SSDs, is powered by SATA power connector.

This,......

 

[Bill_Bright]

Third party vendors would adopt the new standard just like they adopted ATX from AT.

Again, you are assuming all the major players (Intel, AMD, ASUS, Gigabyte, Acer, Lenovo, Phoenix, AMI, Corsair, XFX, WD, Seagate, Samsung, Micron, Sony, and dozens more) would adopt this new standard. And again, I ask, why would they? There is no need. The ATX form factor standard works just fine as it is.

So if the major players have no need to retool and redesign to a totally new standard, why would the 3rd party vendors? They would not.

Case in point: Intel could forbid OEMs from installing their processors on ATX systems

How silly! Why on Earth would they ever do that? Intel is one of primary founding members of the group that created the ATX standard. It works for them so why abandon it and lose $Billions in revenue every year?

Sorry, but you have presented no compelling (or even sensible) argument get rid of ATX so I see no reason to run this further off topic.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

There was no group; there was only Intel. Just like ITX was designed by Via and AT by IBM.

Make computers cheaper to manufacturer going forward so x86 can better compete with ARM.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Intel developed the standard, and was it's driving force, but it is wrong to assume they did it all on their own, without input from others, dictating how everyone else WILL comply to their every whim. And that was when the "clone" industry was just taking off. Today, Intel is not the overwhelming dominating force it was back then.

But all that is beside the point. You have not presented any compelling or logical reason showing how discarding ATX would serve Intel, the computer industry, or more importantly, PC consumers any better. Especially since a simple revision can easily adapt the current standard to the latest and future advances in PC technologies.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

One simple example: 24-pin should be replaced with a cable that only delivers the voltages required by the motherboard (not sure how many of the pins are no longer used but I know some of them are worthless in today's hardware) as well as merging the power requirements of the 4+4 pin that was added starting with the Pentium 4. I suspect it would end up being less than 30 pins and that's the only cable that needs to be plugged into the motherboard. Additionally, they should eliminate the 20+4-pin main connector which was another addition.

That's a prime example of what I'm talking about: what started as a single 20-pin has now evolved into 24+4+4 pin and the only reason for it is to maintain backwards compatibility with hardware over a decade old. It's wasteful.


Intel developed ATX for itself because AT had a lot of design deficiencies. The market adopted ATX because it was clearly better for everyone compared to AT. Via developed ITX because it wanted a motherboard to fit in a smaller package than microATX. The industry adopted it because it, too, filled a need. A new form factor should start from NUC size and work up, I think.

 

[Bill_Bright]

One simple example: 24-pin should be replaced with a cable that only delivers the voltages required by the motherboard

That's not a good example at all! In fact, that is a perfect example to just revise the current standard.

And there is nothing wrong with maintaining backward compatibility. It allows consumers to keep their hardware longer - a very good thing.

So again, sorry. But you have shown us no reason at all to ditch ATX. As long as consumers want PCs (as opposed to portables and handhelds), ATX can easily evolve to support it.

 

[RealNeil]

there is nothing wrong with maintaining backward compatibility. It allows consumers to keep their hardware longer - a very good thing.

Some of us can't replace parts at Intel or AMD's whim. We ~have~ to hang onto our gear longer for financial reasons.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Let's get detailed then...
http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html
+3.3 volts orange
ground black
+5 volts red
ground black
+12 volts yellow
ground black

VSB +5 volts purple
ground black

-12 volts blue (needed anymore?)
ground black (needed anymore?)
-5 volts white (needed anymore?)
ground black (needed anymore?)

PS_ON# green
PWR_OK gray

The last two can be merged into a PSU data bus which also includes power states (ACPI). VSB +5 may even be eliminated because, using the info bus, the entire PSU could intelligently reduce to a stand by power state.

So, here's the absolute minimum it could be reduced to:
+3.3 volts orange
ground black
+5 volts red
ground black
+12 volts yellow
ground black

info bus+ (G0-G4 states, intelligent S1-S4 states, intelligent C0-C10 states, voltages as measured by the PSU, error codes, peak recorded voltages, minimum recorded voltages, and so on)
info bus-

8-pins. This would mean no more PCI (original PCI because it requires -12v) and likely the death of PS/2 ports. There would also obviously have to be more pins added for CPU power. It could perhaps be ran off of a more robust 3.3 rail. No matter, the 24+4+4-pin connectors could easily be reduced to 12- to 16-pin. Additionally, power supply manufacturers could develop much more efficient power supplies for operating at <20% maximum draw.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Let's get detailed then

Let's not. This is not your thread and it is clear you really have no clue what your proposal entails.

You want to FORCE all PSU makers to change how their PSUs are designed, connected and shaped - and you expect they will simply comply because you (or Intel) says so.

You want to FORCE all motherboard makers to change how their boards are designed, connected and shaped and you expect them to simply comply because you (or Intel) says so.

You want to FORCE all case makers to change how their cases are designed, connected and shaped and you expect them to simply comply because you (or Intel) says so.

And then you want to FORCE all PC consumers (business and personal), custom PC builders, and upgraders to buy all new hardware because their old hardware will no longer be compatible.

That is simply ridiculous!

PSU bus? Not needed.

PSU and <20% maximum draw? Ever heard of 80 PLUS Titanium PSUs? Ever wonder why they cost so much? And now you want force ALL consumers to go treehugger and pay extra? And you simply expect PC makers to supply these super efficient PSUs in all their systems and do what? Absorb the costs themselves?

I am not saying your ideas are lousy - just your expectations that this is something easy to do, or that everyone else wants it. And in fact, nothing you proposed requires ATX be scraped completely anyway.

Now this thread needs to be returned to the OP and if you want to discuss a new Form Factor, I suggest you open a new thread. But until you present some... ANY compelling reason or logical rationale for ditching an industry standard that is working and can easily be revised to keep working for the foreseeable (and, sadly, limited) future of the PC, I will not be debating this issue any longer.

 

[dorsetknob]

FIRST of ALL you would have to get the ENTIRE and related Industry to Agree a New Standard

fat chance of that To many Vested interest in the current Standard

Said that earlier and yes

Now this thread needs to be returned to the OP

 

[Bill_Bright]

Said that earlier and yes

And I said it even earlier in post #16:

We will NEVER have a "replacement" for ATX because it will be impossible for the major makers to come to a consensus on a new form factor.

But it keeps falling on deaf ears.

But regardless, we don't need a new standard. If ATX went away, the PC industry would become just like the notebook industry - controlled entirely by the big brand names with no options for home enthusiasts to build or upgrade their own. Everything would be proprietary, and much MUCH more expensive. Newegg and similar companies would go out of business.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I've already explained how new form factors are phased in. I don't need to repeat myself.

80 Plus only certifies 20-80% except on Titanium which added a new 10% category (example: http://www.plugloadsolutions.com/psu_reports/ENERMAX_EDT1250EWT_1250W_ECOS 4220.1_Report.pdf)

What's replacing ATX right now is technologies like NUC which have no standard form factor. Part swapping largely isn't possible except with parts from the same model of product; hence, the need for more form factors that not only supply what large systems need, but also reach down into NUC territory. ATX debuted in 1995--it's long in the tooth. Sure, there's others like ITX but even ITX derives a lot of its connectors from ye' olde ATX.

 

[R-T-B]

The reason why BTX failed? Intel stopped supporting it in 2006.

Largely because it failed.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

http://www.techwarelabs.com/articles/other/btx/

BTX offered significant design innovations but only if the thermal dynamics of motherboards and components were not to change which they did. The designers of the cases were not willing to invest money into redesigning their production facilities to accommodate a new design. If a product is to survive and gain acceptance by users there HAS to be significant "buy in" by retailers and OEMs which there was not for BTX. The most significant roll out of BTX platforms was probably from Dell and Gateway at the time.

BTX failed at being "something great that no one has ever seen before" at the same time it wasn't backwards compatible with the current design, ATX. Other reasons why BTX failed to catch on was because not all users were interested in cooling performance, which was BTX's most significant advantage. The people that did put emphasis on performance would used alternative cooling methods such as liquid cooling or third party air-cooling equipment which were more than sufficient. BTX was basically a design that was not required by the market by the time it came out, thus it never had what it needed to survive as a stand alone product.

I've seen a lot of BTX Dells and I hate the BTX design. It dumps hot CPU exhaust directly on the thermal-sensitive HDD.

 

[Bill_Bright]

What's replacing ATX right now is technologies like NUC

That is not what is happening. NUC is a consequence, not a cause. A tiny (pun intended) niche (Read: expensive!) market, that's all.

What's happening is the full sized PC market (which is where the ATX form factor comes in) is declining in general because more and more consumers are ditching their full size computers, keyboards, mice and monitors for hand-held smart phones. And this market trend, which has been going on for several years now, is not expected to get any better in spite of the fact the PC gaming industry is on the rise.

PC market expected to face more pain in 2015

PC Market Continues Decline Despite Growth in Mobile PC Segment

Worldwide PC Shipments Decline Significantly in Q3 2015

NUC will never become a form factor of any significance unless and until its cost becomes as diminutive as its size.

Also hurting PC sales is the all-in-one computer - basically a notebook computer mounted into the base or back of a large monitor in a proprietary (Read: not enthusiast/hobbyist user-friendly) configuration. Note the PCMag.org review, The 10 Best All-in-One PCs that says (my bold underline added),

The all-in-one desktop PC is an interesting beast. It has gone from being the only game in town (think Commodore Pet/Apple III/TRS-80) to a tiny niche (the original Apple iMac) in a sea of tower PCs, to today, where the all-in-one desktop is replacing the tower PC as the form factor you picture in your head when you hear the phrase "desktop computer."

 

[FordGT90Concept]

NUC and NUC clones are being deployed en masse as thin clients for server access.

All-in-ones could also benefit from their own form factor.

 

[jboydgolfer]

MY H2O pump is connected via Molex. guess ill go burn My water loop, and PSU and buy a proper set

 

[Mr.Scott]

Guess all my vintage hardware can burn in hell too if I couldn't get a replacement PSU to run it.

 

[Kursah]

Guess all my vintage hardware can burn in hell too if I couldn't get a replacement PSU to run it.

Hardly. I'm sure even if there was a new standard, you'd have 0 issues finding a used power supply and even a new one to work with your vintage hardware for years and years...so burn in hell? Nah. Wouldn't happen till those parts gave up their smoke.

Frankly I'd be fine with a new form factor and power connection standard with revised voltage outputs and a single connector to the MB again. I could see plenty of custom market opportunities and suppliers providing for old and new standard equipment, or adapters, or whatever was needed for folks that don't migrate to such a new standard immediately. If there were transitional options, and some more clear benefits that at least a good marketing department could sell, such a thing could totally take off with a few big names, suppliers and vendors all standing behind it or someone like Intel making it a requirement for their next chipset generation in order to sell them.

Such force doesn't do good by the community, and one thing I would miss with new connections is how easy it is to back-probe current power connections for diagnostics. In the end though, I'd like to see something new, fewer power connections and cables to run.

 

[Bill_Bright]

NUC and NUC clones are being deployed en masse as thin clients for server access.

Yeah. So? So are smart phones, notebooks, ultrabooks and even tablets. But there is not common platform across any of them.

All-in-ones could also benefit from their own form factor.

And that will never happen either. Just as there are Apple phones and android phones, no way are all the players of all-in-ones going to agree on a common form factor - just as there is no common form factor for notebooks. And who suffers? Us consumers who are forced to buy more expensive proprietary products and proprietary upgrades - IF upgrades are even provided by the proprietary maker.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

I don't get it. So do you want more form factors or not? I want more. At this rate, it isn't likely to happen but everyone would benefit from more modern form factors that eliminate two decades of backward compatibility.

 

[GoldenX]

Recently I've build an ITX pc that needs a floppy molex to power the SATA/Power adapter for the low profile DVD/BD.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I don't get it. So do you want more form factors or not? I want more.

OMG!!! Are you kidding me? It is clear you don't get it because you are NOT listening to what anybody else is saying! Of course I do NOT want more form factors. I have been saying since you started all this mess that we only need ATX to be revised - not replaced by something no consensus is based on!

At this rate, it isn't likely to happen

Really? Look around you! That is what EVERYONE else is telling you!!!!! Wake up dude!

And understand you are completely wrong when you suggest backwards compatibility does not benefit others. You would rather force all users to buy into a totally new standard - abandoning completely their old technologies, clutter up landfills, expending HUGE amounts of money for something they do not need just because now, all of sudden, their old, perfectly good and still safe hardware no longer works.

How dense can you get? Why don't you understand that that these other form factors you mention are not being universally recognized as standards? Why don't you "get it" that Samsung and Google are not going to roll over and accept Apple's way as the industry standard? Why don't you get that Via is not going to accept that NUC is the industry standard for SFF computers? This is not hard to understand. Open your eyes and mind to reality!

 

[Mindweaver]

Let's calm down and @Bill_Bright let's not call people dense.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Of course I do NOT want more form factors.

Then we're going to have to agree to disagree.