MSI and ASUS Send VGA Review Samples with Higher Clocks than Retail Cards

[Ubersonic]

It's not artificial though. Every single card can hit those speeds with a touch of a button. The difference here is only in touching a button or not.

It's not touching a button, it's installing overclocking software and clicking a button (or you could just download a review card BIOS and flash it so you get the card you paid for).

 

[EarthDog]

What most people do anyway (install that negligible footprint one touch software)... yep. Its advertised on the back of the box even.

OR, you can risk borking the only BIOS by flashing it. Sounds like a GREAT thing for n00bs to flash a single BIOS... stick with the software greenhorns, stay away from BIOS mods/updates unless you have a dual BIOS. In reality the risk is low, but the return on that flash is even lower than the risk.

 

[Ubersonic]

What most people do anyway

No most people don't bother with overclocking software even if it's bundled, they expect the same out of the box performance that the reviewers got. Because they expect to be sent the same card as the reviewers.

 

[EarthDog]

First, its not MSI Afterburner (their real overclocking software). This is a tiny arse footprint software meant to 'dumb down' overclocking for the masses by using one touch. Also, this software controls their LEDs. If they don't install it, they don't control their LEDs either. So your choices are to live with that 1-2% difference by not installing MSI Gaming App, risk flashing your single BIOS for 1-2% difference, or install MSI Gaming App software and hit the button...

 

[Ubersonic]

First, its not MSI Afterburner (their real overclocking software). This is a tiny arse footprint software meant to 'dumb down' overclocking for the masses by using one touch. Also, this software controls their LEDs. If they don't install it, they don't control their LEDs either.

Yeah, I totally care what my card looks like inside my windowless case under my desk lol.

Seriously it's getting lol some of the lengths people are going to to try and make it look like MSI did nothing wrong. They spent three years shipping out cards that were lower clocked than the ones they were sending reviewers, the amount of sales they gained through this dodgy practice is unfathomable. People should have received cards with equal performance to the cards reviewers did it's that simple.

I will admit, before I knew I was getting substandard performance from my card I didn't care, but that didn't mean I still shouldn't care after finding out about MSI's scam. I was straight on the TPU BIOS database and downloading the review card BIOS to unlock my cards true performance (without the need to install bloatware).

 

[EarthDog]

You may not, but in case you missed it, the trends are people like LEDs and use them. Otherwise, you wouldn't see nearly every piece of hardware with it on there...think outside of your personal space.

I'm not saying they didn't do anything wrong. I'm only saying its not a big deal. I 100% disagree with you that the "sales they gained" is unfathomable. The difference is barely noticeable and only noticeable in a review. But that 1-2% is also a known variance/margin of error between different systems. Now, if this was a 100 MHz jump, I think all the bitching and moaning may be worth it. But 24 Mhz on the core in the 1070 when compared to 1600 Mhz as a base clock almost literally yields nothing. Would you like me to post a test for you between gaming mode and OC mode to see? I am thinking it may not be much more than 1% after thinking about it...

People have the same performance in their hands. They just need to enable it with software that most consumers use in the first place. I wonder if people are pissed when they buy a tesla and smash the gas but it doesn't go 0-60 in 3s... oh crap, they have to hit a button for insane mode..... LOLOLOLOL! (yeah yeah, they don't have to install the button, I know!)

EDIT: 3DM Fire Strike Extreme showed 8429 in Gaming Mode and 8468 in OC Mode (.5% difference).

Testing other games in our suite now...

 

[Ubersonic]

I 100% disagree with you that the "sales they gained" is unfathomable. The difference is barely noticeable and only noticeable in a review.

That's the point, lots of buyers base their decision on reviews, and the MSI review cards were able to beat competing cards that the MSI retail cards could not. It was a deliberate attempt to spoof results and mislead people.

 

[bug]

It's not artificial though. Every single card can hit those speeds with a touch of a button. The difference here is only in touching a button or not.

It's artificial in the sense that you're not looking at stock speeds like you think you are.
Above all else, it was a very, very stupid thing to do and it raises concerns about the IQ of the people that did it.

 

[EarthDog]

If that was the case, they should have done a better job because the performance differences just aren't there. I'll post up my results here when I am done.

 

[rtwjunkie]

Also, this software controls their LEDs. If they don't install it, they don't control their LEDs either

Actually, GEForce Experience gives you the same LED control over MSI LED's without having to use their stupid gaming app. And then you can use Afterburner as well, which doesn't screw with the power level settings like Gaming app does.

 

[Ungari]

Yes because I would have known that I needed to either source a copy of the review card's BIOS and flash mine or just buy another card.

NB: For anyone with a retail MSI Gaming 980ti the "real" BIOS can be downloaded here:

https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/173582/msi-gtx980ti-6144-150622

It's not like the Gaming App software information was not disclosed in the specs sheet, or on the box.
I have to seriously doubt that the majority of people who buy these enthusiast grade cards would not have understood that there are BIOS options that are available for the user to select at will.
The multiple BIOS Modes is featured as a reason to purchase these cards over others, for users who do not wish to manually overclock.

This is simply an unbelievable amount of outrage over absolutely nothing.

 

[EarthDog]

They are not changing anything in the BIOS with the Gaming App software... Its a software/windows based clock change.

Actually, GEForce Experience gives you the same LED control over MSI LED's without having to use their stupid gaming app. And then you can use Afterburner as well, which doesn't screw with the power level settings like Gaming app does.

I did not know that. When I install drivers, I do not install anything except for the driver and PhysX. I have never intentionally installed the GFE... (talk about bloatware, LOL!). I'd MUCH rather install the Gaming App than GFE!!!

 

[Ubersonic]

It's not like the Gaming App software information was not disclosed in the specs sheet, or on the box.
I have to seriously doubt that the majority of people who buy these enthusiast grade cards would not have understood that there are BIOS options that are available for the user to select at will.
The multiple BIOS Modes is featured as a reason to purchase these cards over others, for users who do not wish to manually overclock.

This is simply an unbelievable amount of outrage over absolutely nothing.

Okay, here's the thing, the are no multiple BIOS modes, there is one BIOS, and bundled overclocking software that can either overclock the card for power or underclock it for silence. The cards sent to reviewers had a different BIOS that was secretly overclocked by default, this gave both reviewers and customers a skewed impression of the cards performance out of the box when compared to other cards and a skewed impression of what numbers to expect if using the OC software.

Even if a customer would still have chosen the MSI card knowing they were padding their review numbers the should still have been an option to download the review sample BIOS in order to flash the card for true performance (MSI have now released these for the 1070/1080, and you can get the 900/700/600 series ones from the TPU BIOS database).

 

[Ubersonic]

I did not know that. When I install drivers, I do not install anything except for the driver and PhysX. I have never intentionally installed the GFE... (talk about bloatware, LOL!). I'd MUCH rather install the Gaming App than GFE!!!

Sadly it's not optional now if you want the latest drivers as they are only uploading them to their site periodically.

 

[EarthDog]

I just installed the latest drivers for the 1070 review a couple days ago. I had the option to install/not GFE.

 

[rtwjunkie]

They are not changing anything in the BIOS with the Gaming App software... Its a software/windows based clock change.

I did not know that. When I install drivers, I do not install anything except for the driver and PhysX. I have never intentionally installed the GFE... (talk about bloatware, LOL!). I'd MUCH rather install the Gaming App than GFE!!!

I hear you, it's a valid argument, but anyone running 16GB of RAM or more and a decent CPU isn't usually concerned about bloatware. I like it because of Shadowplay. And it doesn't mess with power levels, so there's that, LOL.

 

[EarthDog]

Yeah, it isn't slowing anything down, that isn't my point. I was more talking about the footprint of the applications and what they have their hooks into. A tiny arse one touch OC program that controls LEDs and the fan, or GFE (i dont need to explain that), LOL!

 

[rtwjunkie]

A tiny arse one touch OC program that controls LEDs and the fan

Except....look what happened to P4-630 in the Valley thread. He had that "tiny" program in use, and it completely borked his power use settings he had in place. That's not uncommon behavior. I experienced it as well. So small doesn't necessarily make it better. I'll take size (GFE) over what it (Gaming App) does to my system any day, especially if I get some benefit out of it like Shadowplay.

Anyway, I won't sidetrack anymore.

 

[EarthDog]

Anyway, here are my quick results. I have SS for 3DM and Metro. Dirt has the XML. ME:SOM, you will just have to believe me, LOL!

3DM FS Extreme - 8,429 Gaming to 8,463 OC Mode (.5%)
Dirt: Rally - 82.38 Gaming to 83.01 OC Mode (.8%)
ME:SOM - 120.38 Gaming to 121.07 OC Mode (.6%)
Metro:LL - 78.64 Gaming to 78.97 OC Mode (.5%)

Not even 1% difference in this small sample... and you think its "UNFATHOMABLE" how many more sales they got because of THAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oy.

Except....look what happened to P4-630 in the Valley thread. He had that "tiny" program in use, and it completely borked his power use settings he had in place. That's not uncommon behavior. I experienced it as well. So small doesn't necessarily make it better. I'll take size (GFE) over what it (Gaming App) does to my system any day, especially if I get some benefit out of it like Shadowplay.

Anyway, I won't sidetrack anymore.

Power setings for what? As I said, I stayed the hell out of that debacle of a thread after I tried to assist that clueless clown. LOL!

We will agree to disagree on GFE vs Gaming App. Though to be fair, I don't use either outside of reviews so my experience is quite limited.

 

[rtwjunkie]

Power setings for what? As I said, I stayed the hell out of that debacle of a thread after I tried to assist that clueless clown. LOL!

You know, in Windows where you set your energy efficiency, or not, by setting a Performance power plan, balanced, or energy-saving, or set your own by going each and every item.

 

[EarthDog]

Weird. I wonder why that would affect it considering it has absolutely nothing to do with the OS. Seems like a one off. Id be willing to bet its a PEBKAC. I will test here and PM you some results...

...I digress in the OT though.

 

[Ungari]

Okay, here's the thing, the are no multiple BIOS modes, there is one BIOS, and bundled overclocking software that can either overclock the card for power or underclock it for silence. The cards sent to reviewers had a different BIOS that was secretly overclocked by default, this gave both reviewers and customers a skewed impression of the cards performance out of the box when compared to other cards and a skewed impression of what numbers to expect if using the OC software.

Even if a customer would still have chosen the MSI card knowing they were padding their review numbers the should still have been an option to download the review sample BIOS in order to flash the card for true performance (MSI have now released these for the 1070/1080, and you can get the 900/700/600 series ones from the TPU BIOS database).

I'm sorry but a "secret overclock" was not what happened here with these ASUS and MSI 1080s; it was sent with the OC Mode profile selected. The OC Mode BIOS clocks that review samples have are the same OC Mode BIOS clocks that retail customers can enable at will.

Shame on all the reviewers that were surprised by this because they did not even check to see what clock speeds were selected, nor did they bother to test the preset mode options!

I must disagree with this whole concept of solely testing a default setting "Out of the box". These cards are designed to allow users to define which preset mode they choose, this choice is available as soon as one installs the card "Out of the box".
Just because some reviewers or retail customers choose not to avail themselves of these factory preset modes does not mean there was any dishonesty on the part of these companies, rather they wanted to showcase the highest factory OC preset as well they should.

I agree with your point about there being only one BIOS that is flashed, and that is a huge detraction for these cards, as I also prefer cards with a physical BIOS switch.

 

[EarthDog]

@rtwjunkie I didn't see where anyone went wrong with power savings and MSI app in the valley thread...

 

[rtwjunkie]

@rtwjunkie I didn't see where anyone went wrong with power savings and MSI app in the valley thread...

Hmmm....I'm getting old. At the risk of further transgressing and (further) derailing this thread, I was mistaken: http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/gtx-1080-or-1070-fan-poll.223303/page-4#post-3476858

 

[EarthDog]

Betting its a W8 thing... Works just fine for me on both systems in W10.. Id still rather install it than GFE. LOL!

Anyhoooooooooooooooooooo................

@rtwjunkie - I was mistaking. It happens to me as well in W10. If Gaming App isn't open, it will change. If its open, it will not allow me to select performance profile. That said, I don't think it changes anything as my clocks are all still stable at my overclock... just doens't allow you to select it?????