Negative or positive pressure? Does it matter?

ThrashZone · Sep 19, 2021

AusWolf said:
I was replying to a comment about cleaning. My post that you quoted has nothing to do with my original question. Sorry if that caused confusion.

Hi,
That I remember policy is filters and dust be damned

Dust will be in the case regardless of what you do although you haven't done much if anything to improve the filtering aspect either.

Think you should look into test benches.

AusWolf · Sep 19, 2021

ThrashZone said:
Hi,
That I remember policy is filters and dust be damned
Dust will be in the case regardless of what you do although you haven't done much if anything to improve the filtering aspect either.

Think you should look into test benches.

What has this got to do with anything? :wtf:

I posted my OP question about looking for cooling options that maximise airflow, while also being interested in what kind of case pressure is optimal for cooling efficiency. Now, I replied to a comment about cleaning (which you have to do anyway). Two separate things, okay?

Let's not use this forum for picking faults in each other's comments, please. It's so petty.

ThrashZone · Sep 19, 2021

AusWolf said:
What has this got to do with anything?

I posted my OP question about looking for cooling options that maximise airflow, while also being interested in what kind of case pressure is optimal for cooling efficiency. Now, I replied to a comment about cleaning (which you have to do anyway). Two separate things, okay?

Let's not use this forum for picking faults in each other's comments, please. It's so petty.

Hi,
Test benches don't have positive or negative pressure issues is my point.

mtcn77 · Sep 19, 2021

ThrashZone said:
Hi,
Test benches don't have positive or negative pressure issues is my point.

No, test benches have 'negative pressure' and they have separate air flow channels to every component. Don't categorize them incorrectly - air comes in, gets hot, is expelled in a case with 'sealed' passive channels. The seal does not have to be strong, it just have to be induction oriented and not suction.

When someone tests in an open bench, the only missing factor is the missing intake seal. The rest is the same as a negative pressure setup and it will perform well because it has component flow separation which we want to emulate in normal case environment as well.

Dust is a separate argument. Don't mistake open bench with any sealed case. Dust can accumulate more in a case versus open bench because like we said and deaf ears don't listen - it is a temperature proposition. Hot air has less pressure, dust can separate and precipitate continuously when there is a higher temperature gradient within the case environment. Open benches don't negate that, they just lower the temperature gradient by allowing airflow discretization. The underlying reasons between their characteristics are very different why open benches and 'good' cases accumulate dust.
Don't pay attention to every bad suggestion you read in the internet. You know how your mileage may vary and components are not cheap.
TL;DR: temperature gradient will determine how much of the airflow dust will precipitate on your electronics. Open cases collect dust by a different mechanism correlated to higher flow volume, not temperature gradient like closed cases.

eidairaman1 · Sep 19, 2021

Andy Shiekh said:
I think one thing that is left out by the negative/positive pressure argument is turbulence; turbulent air on a heatsink will help with heat extraction.

Both videos (in post 1) are basically a dust discussion, so I guess it was inevitable people would head in that direction; so I'd say dust was very much on-topic, and no, it doesn't go where the air goes; if one put in a switchback, the air would go round, but the dust would be caught.

Turbulence can cause deadspots in a case

ThrashZone said:
Hi,
That I remember policy is filters and dust be damned
Dust will be in the case regardless of what you do although you haven't done much if anything to improve the filtering aspect either.

Think you should look into test benches.

Filters reduce dust is all, i made a point earlier about micron filters

Shrek · Sep 19, 2021

Is a dust discussion allowed? or should I open a new thread.

I recall the discoloration that can occur behind house radiators because the rising air charges the surface which then attracts dust... so I wonder about fan blades and if a similar mechanism is in play. What if the blades were conducting (needs some additives to the plastic) and then grounded (this is the harder part).

Ahhzz · Sep 19, 2021

I think getting into the aerodynamics of the specific components in a case and how they affect the air flow any more than "This drive is right in front of the case fan" is pretty ludicrous. Every case is going to flow a little different because a cable is in a different spot. Overall discussions of positive flow vs negative are more the point of this thread, and more helpful to new and old builders alike.

mtcn77 · Sep 19, 2021

eidairaman1 said:
Turbulence can cause deadspots in a case

Higher than water level IQ! :love:

Andy Shiekh said:
I recall the discoloration that can occur behind house radiators because the rising air charges the surface which then attracts dust...

I think we can soundly agree there is more rather than less to this topic than it seems to some.

Vayra86 · Sep 19, 2021

Mussels said:
Or has nerve damage in their elbow and back, and lives in a dusty environment

It's a terrible idea to assume motivations or reasoning for others

It is not even of a concern if you're lazy, like me, I've been collecting dust since jan 2019 like a boss, no problems here whatsoever. Now its gone and I've gained back the few degrees C I lost over the years. Its so boring, really.

PCs can handle a lot of abuse tbh, and we're being way too anal about things on TPU in that regard - anal about the WRONG things, too, while being careless about the things that might actually matter.

That said, I'll not assume

But knowledge is a big part of motivation, too, as is experience.

Lets be careful not to mistake sharing knowledge to inspire motivation for certain things (do's/don'ts) with 'arguing'... Arguing isn't always a bad thing either. If people are convinced of something you just need a few more voices (or repetitions) to get things across. 'Knowing better' still doesn't mean you have to go out and copy everything.

Ahhzz said:
I think getting into the aerodynamics of the specific components in a case and how they affect the air flow any more than "This drive is right in front of the case fan" is pretty ludicrous. Every case is going to flow a little different because a cable is in a different spot. Overall discussions of positive flow vs negative are more the point of this thread, and more helpful to new and old builders alike.

What is also helpful is separating 'preferable' to 'preferable for one or more use cases', something that was painfully missing earlier.

There are situations, perhaps, where negative flow has advantages. Now thát is subject matter tbh. There is no be-all end-all.

TheoneandonlyMrK · Sep 19, 2021

AusWolf said:
How about mounting fans on radiators in a "pull" config? It's much easier to blow dust off of the rad than removing the whole thing to have access to the side where the fans are.

Fair point , also makes me add another caveat to noise cooling performance, cleaning,. , appearance, I have 9 Corsair RGB fans so can't plus I have push pull on one rad push only on the roof rad.

AusWolf · Sep 19, 2021

TheoneandonlyMrK said:
Fair point , also makes me add another caveat to noise cooling performance, cleaning,. , appearance, I have 9 Corsair RGB fans so can't plus a push pull on one rad push only on the roof rad.

That's a fair point too. You wouldn't want to block your lights with a radiator. I used to have a similar config, but I just took some compressed air and blew it through the rad and fans.

ThrashZone said:
Hi,
Test benches don't have positive or negative pressure issues is my point.

That is true, though I still don't see how it's relevant. It's like telling someone to buy a moped when they were only asking how to improve gas mileage on their car.

Vayra86 said:
Lets be careful not to mistake sharing knowledge to inspire motivation for certain things (do's/don'ts) with 'arguing'... Arguing isn't always a bad thing either. If people are convinced of something you just need a few more voices (or repetitions) to get things across. 'Knowing better' still doesn't mean you have to go out and copy everything.

Well said! Let's not mock one another for asking questions. Asking questions is a necessary step towards learning, not a reason to pick a fight. When you believe that you know everything is when you shield yourself from more knowledge and from other people. That's where the term ignorance comes from, I believe. Ignorance towards learning. The purpose of an online forum is to share knowledge, not to mock other people for thinking differently, or for trying to learn. When has learning become a bad thing, anyway?

Vayra86 · Sep 19, 2021

AusWolf said:
When has learning become a bad thing, anyway?

When we started taking everything personally. I remember vividly a discussion a few pages back about Furmark as if I was talking about the guy's baby. Its an application. Holy moly.

mtcn77 · Sep 19, 2021

Vayra86 said:
When we started taking everything personally. I remember vividly a discussion a few pages back about Furmark as if I was talking about the guy's baby. Its an application. Holy moly.

Apparently one man's trash is another man's treasure.

AusWolf · Sep 19, 2021

Vayra86 said:
When we started taking everything personally.

I am taking this statement personally. Consider me seriously offended, and feel free to take my statement personally too.

I think I'm getting the hang of this modern online communication thing. :roll:

Edit: It's a joke.

lexluthermiester · Sep 20, 2021

Ahhzz said:
Every case is going to flow a little different because a cable is in a different spot.

This. Two different people can by the same case and even the same parts to go in them, but if one uses liquid cooling and the other uses are, the airflow dynamic is going to be different. As such fan configuration might potentially need adjustment one from the other.

It was wise for @AusWolf to as for opinions and insights as he might discover a better arrangement for cooling his particular system that was inspired here they might not have thought of previously.

rudijay · Oct 13, 2021

AusWolf said:
The title says it. In case any of you are unfamiliar of the topic, here are some great videos:

As a starter, let me present my case:

System in my profile - I have it all in a Corsair 280X chassis. My cooling setup is composed of a 240 mm AIO with the radiator at the top of the case, fans working as exhaust. I also have the 2x 120 mm fans that came with the case in the front as intake. They work at similar RPMs, so it's a fairly balanced pressure setup. I've been wondering how to improve the cooling performance, as by taking off the side panel of the chassis, I'm shaving 8 °C off of both the CPU and GPU (62 °C CPU instead of 70 and 66 °C GPU instead of 74 in Metro: Exodus). In terms of performance, it's only a couple of extra boost bins on the GPU which isn't noticeable at all, but the noise, I mean silence! It would be nice to have it with the side of the case on too.

The 280X chassis has 14 cm fan mounts both on top and in the front, so a fan upgrade is evident. What I thought about is getting a 280 mm AIO to improve CPU temps at the same time. But then, I probably wouldn't be able to install 14 cm fans in the front for a balanced setup (not enough room), resulting in a negative pressure setup.

My other idea is not giving a hoot about CPU temps, as they are OK anyway, but to just install 14 cm intake fans in the front, resulting in a positive pressure setup.

Which path would be more beneficial in your opinion?

Also feel free to turn the thread into a general discussion with your own questions and stuff.

I'd just run an air purifier. simple and effective.

Mussels · Oct 13, 2021

rudijay said:
I'd just run an air purifier. simple and effective.

You'd think so, but this is my server in front of my air purifier... (It's in a crap spot as i have VDSL, and thats where the jack is)
I still have to clean it every week or so - but my vac died, so we're at week 2 of no cleaning.

Purifier is doing its job

This system is a bit odd, as it's ITX with a side facing AIO

Despite a big ass fan sucking all the dust in literally in front of it, nope: time to clog up!

Because the case has a weird design, it's only usable negative air pressure: look at the back

Negative pressure means dust is sucked in all the unfiltered places, and i have to air compressor the entire system. If it had positive air pressure, that PSU would be dust free instead of it's current clogged up state.

Vayra86 · Oct 13, 2021

Mussels said:
You'd think so, but this is my server in front of my air purifier... (It's in a crap spot as i have VDSL, and thats where the jack is)
I still have to clean it every week or so - but my vac died, so we're at week 2 of no cleaning.
View attachment 220582
Purifier is doing its job
View attachment 220580This system is a bit odd, as it's ITX with a side facing AIO

Despite a big ass fan sucking all the dust in literally in front of it, nope: time to clog up!
View attachment 220581

Because the case has a weird design, it's only usable negative air pressure: look at the back

Negative pressure means dust is sucked in all the unfiltered places, and i have to air compressor the entire system. If it had positive air pressure, that PSU would be dust free instead of it's current clogged up state.
View attachment 220583

Does your house not have windows?

Holy crap man, I think the PPM of dust particles in your house is worse than walking Beijing streets in summer.

I notice it up here too... ventilation is everything, really. If I don't open the windows daily, it gets unpleasant fast.

Ferrum Master · Oct 13, 2021

Vayra86 said:
Does your house not have windows?

Holy crap man, I think the PPM of dust particles in your house is worse than walking Beijing streets in summer.

I notice it up here too... ventilation is everything, really. If I don't open the windows daily, it gets unpleasant fast.

He's an Aussie, that means not normal for us. For them pretty much normal to see sight like that.

Although he can solve that into investing into proper inhouse ventilation.

Mussels · Oct 13, 2021

I live next to a forest. It's summer in spring.
A lot of that is pollen that i'm allergic to, and some dust.
Does opening windows make things BETTER where you are? The world is a weird place.

Point was, slight negative air pressure (2x140 in, 2x120 + 120 in PSU out) = visible buildup on unfiltered areas, and inside the system too.
It may be slower or less visible for other climates and houses, but it's still going to happen the same way, at a different rate.

FireFox · Oct 13, 2021

Mussels said:
You'd think so, but this is my server in front of my air purifier... (It's in a crap spot as i have VDSL, and thats where the jack is)
I still have to clean it every week or so - but my vac died, so we're at week 2 of no cleaning.
View attachment 220582
Purifier is doing its job
View attachment 220580This system is a bit odd, as it's ITX with a side facing AIO

Despite a big ass fan sucking all the dust in literally in front of it, nope: time to clog up!
View attachment 220581

Because the case has a weird design, it's only usable negative air pressure: look at the back

Negative pressure means dust is sucked in all the unfiltered places, and i have to air compressor the entire system. If it had positive air pressure, that PSU would be dust free instead of it's current clogged up state.
View attachment 220583

This is my front panel after 2 months and 15 days

but inside the case isn't that bad, i guess some dust filters are better than others.
more intake= positive, so 8 intake + 5 exhaust is it positive?

freeagent · Oct 13, 2021

This weekend I will dust off my bench, I haven't used it in awhile. Mainly because I get better temps in a case because my fans are ridiculous.

Edit:

I am a huge fan of positive pressure. I am running 3 in 1 out in my setup. It used to be like 4 or 5 in and 2 out.. but it wasn't really necessary.

Right now about 385cfm in, and 110 out providing they are all screaming together.

As for dust.. yes it tis real, and I cannot escape it.

Running with the top sealed, no mesh, and no pci covers.

Mussels · Oct 13, 2021

FireFox said:
This is my front panel after 2 months and 15 days

View attachment 220748

but inside the case isn't that bad, i guess some dust filters are better than others.
more intake= positive, so 8 intake + 5 exhaust is it positive?

View attachment 220749

Yup thats positive, and focuses dust on the filter

claes · Oct 13, 2021

Is it? Filters cut CFM significantly, as do radiators. It’d depend on the fan speeds and CFM.

Deleted member 24505 · Oct 13, 2021

No filters on mine, hoover every couple of weeks

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Negative or positive pressure? Does it matter?

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Storage	500GB Samsung 850 Evo (OS X, *nix), 128GB Samsung 840 Pro (W10 Pro), 1TB SpinPoint F3 ~best in class
Display(s)	ASUS VW246H ~best 24" you've seen FULL HD 1O80PP SLAPS~
Case	FT02-W ~the W stands for white but it's brushed aluminum except for the disgusting ODD bays; cries
Audio Device(s)	A LOT
Power Supply	850W EVGA SuperNova G2 ~hot fire like champagne~
Mouse	CM Spawn ~cmcz R c00l seth mcfarlane darawss~
Keyboard	CM QF Rapid - Browns ~fastrrr kees for fstr teens~
Software	integrated into the chassis
Benchmark Scores	9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999