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[PCGamer] Denuvo opens its own Discord server to rehabilitate its image, has to shut it down 2 days later after players flood in to bully it

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Yeah, this much was expected if one were to open a public channel for it. The more invasive DRM gets, the more it is hated, and that goes for accessory products (anti-cheat, game launchers). People also absolutely despise EAC and uPlay, after all.

I begrudgingly put up with such software in specific instances because were I to go cold turkey I'd be cutting myself off from a lot of my social contacts and probably opening my system up to more attacks in the wider scope of things (were I to seek out alternatives), but it doesn't mean I like it.
 
It's what you posters on this thread -- and thousands more like it on other forums -- say repeatedly. You NEED these latest AAA titles, but you can't afford to pay full price for them. Thus you justify your theft.
Let's make something clear: I don't need all the latest AAA games, but the ones I do, I put on my wish list and buy them later on a discount. My Steam library is 500-long, I've got more than enough (legitimately purchased) games to play. It is extremely rare that I pay full price for a game, but when I do, I make sure it's worth it.

Just because I have enough money to buy the games I want doesn't mean that I have no empathy for those who don't and rely on pirating as their only access to gaming (as I used to be one of them myself).

Maybe you should change your attitude because theft is wrong. Most people learn this during their upbringing.
Nobody said it isn't wrong. What I'm saying is 1. that the definition of theft is dubious at best, and 2. that people below a certain level of disposable income have other things to worry about than what's right or wrong.

1. Taking a bottle of whiskey from a supermarket without paying for it is theft because you're creating a loss. How about accepting a bottle of whiskey from an individual, that may or may not be stolen? Or how about making your own? The law cracks down on that, too, for some reason, even though you're not creating a loss for anyone. You're not creating a loss by using pirated software, either, provided you had no intention, or financial means to buy the software in the first place, as there is no empty space in its place, and the software company keeps selling it to people who can afford it, and even you having no access to said software wouldn't have generated any income for the company.

2. You would never steal food because it's wrong, right? Would you say the same if your, or your family's life depended on it? If you had literally no money and the only means of getting by was stealing? Of course gaming isn't the same because it isn't essential. All I'm saying is, people who do pirate games don't stand on the moral high ground that you do because they can't afford to. At their income level, they honestly don't give a shit.

More abhorrently repulsive attempts to justify theft with flawed juvenile logic. No one "steals" from you by setting a price for their own property, no matter how high that price is. If they were selling fresh water or oxygen, you might have a slim shred of an argument. But video games? How pathetic.
What if I wanted to sell my Ford Fiesta for £1,000,000? Would you buy it? I suppose not. But what if somebody did? Should I sell it to them in good conscience? Does the transaction being completely legal justify the price?

You're preaching about morality like it literally was the same as legality. There are many things in this world that are moral, but not legal, and many that are legal, but not moral. Especially since the definition of morality is highly subjective.

I would never steal from, or mislead an individual, but if I could use the bank's money (an institution that legally steals money from gullible people) to put a few zeros at the end of my account balance with a 100% guarantee that I would face no repercussions, then damn right I would, and I wouldn't ask for your opinion on it.

Unsurprisingly, you misread. You claimed EULAs were "unfair" because in some cases, you must first purchase to read it. I simply stated that all such EULAs have a reasonable period to allow you to read them, and choose to either agree, or return the product. Would you like me to explain it again, using smaller words?
I've never seen an EULA in my life that presented itself before buying the game/software.
 
You're not creating a loss by using pirated software, either, provided you had no intention, or financial means to buy the software ... There are many things in this world that are moral, but not legal.
In days past, thieves at least had the courtesy to be ashamed of their actions. Now they try to claim they're acting morally.

Let's clear up a few things. Even if piracy didn't cost studios a penny, it's still theft, and still morally abhorrent. If you break into your neighbor's home while he's on vacation, sleep in his bed, poke through all his belongings, that's still a crime. Do so at a hotel, and it's theft of services -- even if the room wouldn't have been rented regardless. The definition of ownership and property rights includes control over that property. Respect for that is essential to modern society.

And let's dispense with the nonsense that piracy doesn't generate losses. "I wasn't going to buy anyway (wink wink) so I'm not hurting anyone!" You yourself have admitted why that isn't true. You may not have an intention to pay full price for the title ... but you "wait until it's cheaper to buy". Which, of course, never happens when you pirate a copy. Or, instead of spending those hours playing your stolen video game, you would have instead been forced to purchase some cheaper Indie-studio game. EVERYONE who can afford a computer and the leisure time to game has some sort of budget to allot to entertainment.

I've never seen an EULA in my life that presented itself before buying the game/software.
Logic really isn't that difficult. You claimed EULAs were unfair because you weren't given an option to agree beforehand. But if you have the option to agree after purchase -- and void the sale -- your argument is meaningless.

And stop the absurd statements. There isn't a EULA in existence that you can't see before purchasing. This isn't the shrinkwrap era any longer.
 
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Logic or not. As Linux user, game studios can choke on Denuvo.
 
In days past, thieves at least had the courtesy to be ashamed of their actions. Now they try to claim they're acting morally.

Let's clear a few things up. Even if piracy didn't cost studios a penny, it's still theft, and it's still morally abhorrent. If you break into your neighbor's home while he's on vacation, sleep in his bed, poke through all his belongings, that's still a crime. Do so at a hotel, and it's theft of services -- even if the room in question wouldn't have been rented regardless. The definition of ownership and property rights includes control over that property. Respect for that is essential to modern society.

And let's dispense with the nonsense that piracy doesn't generate losses. "I wasn't going to buy anyway (wink wink) so I'm not hurting anyone!" You yourself have admitted why that isn't true. You may not have an intention to pay full price for the title ... but you "wait until it's cheaper to buy". Which, of course, never happens when you pirate a copy. Or, instead of spending those hours playing your stolen video game, you would have instead been forced to purchase some cheaper Indie-studio game. EVERYONE who can afford a computer and the leisure time to game has some sort of budget to allot to entertainment.


Logic really isn't that difficult. You claimed EULAs were unfair because you weren't given an option to agree beforehand. But if you have the option to agree after purchase -- and void the sale -- your argument is meaningless.

And stop the absurd statements. Today here isn't a EULA in existence that you can't see before purchasing. This isn't the shrinkwrap era any longer.

Tere is thief at each level, dev works and creates game, publisher and studio get the money of their work's sellings, pirates don't pay anybody, Denuvo is not cheap and is just a layer on top of a long work finished media.
 
It's what you posters on this thread -- and thousands more like it on other forums -- say repeatedly. You NEED these latest AAA titles, but you can't afford to pay full price for them. Thus you justify your theft.
Actually, almost nobody said that, because its against forum rules. Its just what you assumed because that's the lens through which you view this topic. What far more people are saying here, is that they skip games with Denuvo in them altogether, and the topic is mostly about the wild guess of lost sales versus piracy versus the presence of Denuvo. What far more people are also saying, is that they are far better off waiting until Denuvo is removed from the game because not only will it run better, its probably also gone on deep sale and can be had for a third of the price.

You might wanna take a breather. Clearly you've got an axe to grind against all those filthy pirates, those hypocrites, those immoral assholes. This isn't the place. Try Reddit, and bring a white horse, you deserve it, after all, being such good citizen and all.
 
What alternate universe are you posting from? There isn't a consumer-facing business in the world that doesn't take measures to prevent theft. Not one. Period. End of sentence.


You're attempting to justify theft as "they can afford it". That's a morally reprehensible attitude. Period. End of sentence.

READ THE WORDS. I am not stating that it should or should not be done. I am telling you that morally there is no argument. You can do things that are not moral, and there is a grey line. Case in point, as stated, I don't like the idea of DRM but I like Steam. We live in the grey, not the black and white.


I am not justifying the "they can afford it" argument. I am stating what you did above, that people plan for some level of spoilage with a shortage factor. It's great that you can talk out of both sides of your mouth, and level criticism that you think applies to me. Let me put this into insanely simple and stupid points:
1) Moral arguments are not viable when you are doing immoral things.
2) Life is grey. People often try to morally justify immoral things...and this is not inherently impossible. Case in point, is it moral to let your child starve, or is it more moral to steal a loaf of bread?

3) "They can afford it" is not a point. "They build the cost of spoilage and shortage into the cost to consumers" is.
4) Digital goods have no spoilage, virtually no upkeep if designed for it, and shortage via piracy is therefore the primary loss mechanism.

5) Denuvo, and most DRM, is an upfront overhead cost which seeks to stop the projected costs of piracy. It is like insurance, where you can pay premiums until you die and not get anything back...but people buy into it because that one catastrophic event where you need it could happen. The trick is it's like insurance where paying customers are assumed to be liars, and speed limiters are installed onto your car, while piracy is like driving without a limiter...where paying customers have a worse experience because they are assumed to be speeding.
6) I, ironically, am for a non-intrusive DRM that will be patched out in 12 weeks. I like that Bethesda removed it from Doom: Eternal, and think that is a somewhat good model of protecting your investment while not being a complete lump regarding your customers. It would mean I never buy a game newer than 12 weeks old, but it would make investors happy. I would support Denuvo if it self-destructed. I support the immorality of assuming consumer theft if it was in service to an overall better experience...and would never claim to argue from the perspective of my moral superiority. I would only claim practical considerations make my solution the most pragmatic.


I would again like to wrap this up with some suggestions. First, you read and identify where I said my argument was morally superior...because what I stated was that the argument from moral superiority didn't hold water. It's the no true Irish man situation, where a plastic definition of morality is needed to make any claims of an absolute truth. Second, making a profit requires you accurately model costs and build them into the price of goods. If you cannot do this leave the business world. In the business world stuff is damaged, stolen, produced defective, and goes bad. The only people claiming that this is impossible to deal with are "protection" outfits like Denuvo, and people experiencing insane things (like Target leaving New York). When you model 10% shortage, and get 20%, there's an issue. When you want to claim 0% shortage as your business model you failed business basics. Finally, grow some thicker skin. Radicals and idealogs can create a strawman argument and claim to be morally superior. I expect better from you, given that we (Dirtyferret and I) had an argument over multiple posts and agreed to disagree, but you decided that you needed to misconstrue everything and start a new one founded on bass-ackwards intentionally misunderstanding a clearly laid out counter-argument. Mine is not the only solution...and I can see practically why things are done, but you want to pretend I have some sort of moral basis for arguments... It's like some bizarro universe where you've decided my opinion and don't need me to express it. Seriously, WTF?
 
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