Question about Intel Optane SSDs

[NDRE28]

Hello!

I plan to buy a 400GB Intel Optane SSD.

There are 2 variants of the 400GB drive on eBay:

1. Intel Optane DC P5800X / SSDPF21Q400GB L0310100 (400GB).

2. Dell 53M3R Intel Optane DC P5800X / SSDPF21Q400GBT (400GB).

The Dell drive is cheaper.

QUESTION:
Is the Dell drive just as good as the regular Intel one, or should I avoid it?

 

[Wirko]

Look here:

Thanks. Didn't know about that. However, in what use case would you really want to have that? It's one more layer in tiered memory+storage, and it only gives optimum performance if applications, not just the OS, are aware of the memory hierarchy, including "slow RAM". Is it great for storing the page file? Probably but page file makes a poor RAM extension.

I'll also copy the words of the last commenter on STH,

... The stupid thing is if Optane Memory used Memory Drive Technology and actually meant extension of the system memory in some way, it would have been much more popular.

Instead it was a glorified caching mechanism. ...

 

[evernessince]

M.2 NVMe speeds have risen almost as fast as PCIe speeds suggesting that NAND can be ramped up even more.

PCIe 4.0 tops out at 8G/s for a 4-lane M.2 SSD. PCIe 5.0 brings 16GB/s and PCIe 6.0 jumps to 32GB/s which is close to DDR4 speeds.

Work on PCIe 7.0 is being driven by network demands rather than how fast your laptop can load Halo

In sequential speeds, sure. The problem is that random performance and latency are not improving at the same rate and for most people that's what really matters. Seq speeds have increased 28x compared to drives in 2013. Random performance has increase 3.5x.

Capacity and cost are also huge issues facing SSDs as well. The m.2 format is not great for desktop PCs given it's capacity limitations and the additional cost associated with that. You can get very big enterprise drives at very big price tags. QLC was supposed to bridge the gap between SSDs and HDDs price wise but that hasn't really happened. QLC drives are often sold at not enough of a discount as compared to TLC to justify.

Optane will likely remain relevant for a very long time. It's initial latency is just so low that in some test there is just a gulf between it and regular SSDs:

Other drives can make up for this by having higher transfer speeds but it's a big part of the reason optane is so insanely snappy. Consistent performance (Optane doesn't have nor need a write cache) and insane endurance are nice bonuses too.

 

[SiggiTheHun]

@Wirko
I can only guess:
Video editing, large 3d-CAD work, an "affordable" alternative to expensive DRAM, more memory than technically supported from the CPU, non-volatile memory(?)..?
Interestingly the Optane (storage) performace guidelines advise to turn off - amongst other things - the page file. Like when lots of RAM is available. Practicability vs. benchmarking.

 

[Barefooter]

I've been using an Intel 905P with a waterblock for about 6 years now. I use it for OS and programs. Random performance is impressive, however I really don't notice it in start up speed or just using it. It feels just the same as a regular sata SSD. Just my 2 cents.

 

[NDRE28]

<Fun fact>
When comparing the endurance of NAND SSDs vs Optane:

•A 4TB TLC NAND SSD (like the Samsung 9100 Pro 4TB) offers 0.3 Drive Writes per Day (DWPD) for 5 years.
Which equals: 1.2TB/Day.

•An Intel Optane DC P5800X 400GB offers 100 DWPD for 5 years.
Which equals: 40TB/Day.

PS:
Keep in mind that, in this example, the NAND SSD is 10X larger than the Optane!

I've been using an Intel 905P with a waterblock for about 6 years now. I use it for OS and programs. Random performance is impressive, however I really don't notice it in start up speed or just using it. It feels just the same as a regular sata SSD. Just my 2 cents.

View attachment 391625

Hi!

I am pretty sure that if you'd replace the Optane drive with a regular SSD, you'd "feel" a difference when performing certain tasks.

For instance, my Samsung 970 Pro drives run pretty well when I'm accessing the same files again & again.
However, when I am accessing folders that I usually never open (like a folder filled with photos) - I open the folder but I can't see any file in it for about 2-3 seconds, until those files start appearing.

 

[Wirko]

However, when I am accessing folders that I usually never open (like a folder filled with photos) - I open the folder but I can't see any file in it for about 2-3 seconds, until those files start appearing.

Stupid Windows. The example you gave is one of the best examples of parallel access and use of queues, where even the poorest of NVMe SSDs would reach 300k-600k IOPS ... if Microsoft cared to implement that.

Optane will likely remain relevant for a very long time. It's initial latency is just so low that in some test there is just a gulf between it and regular SSDs:

I don't understand this graph. NAND-based SSDs have a latency of ~30 us at QD1, that's fine, but Optane's should be around 10 us, right?

 

[evernessince]

I don't understand this graph. NAND-based SSDs have a latency of ~30 us at QD1, that's fine, but Optane's should be around 10 us, right?

Nice catch, didn't realize this chart did latency descending. Looking at serverthehome's review, while they don't have 8K results for optane it should be around 0.022ms given neighboring results. If there was a huge drop in 8K performance specifically, ATTO and CDM would show it.

The results for the non-optane drives look way off too. For example, here are the anvil scores for the 980 Pro 1TB that's shown in the chart:

Here's the Optane:

As you can see, IO response time should be vastly lower, up to 1/3rd the latency. Even against the new Samsung 9100 pro there's a large gap:

 

[A Computer Guy]

OP, Did you end up making a decision?

 

[NDRE28]

OP, Did you end up making a decision?

Yes.
I did made up my decision.
I want to buy the 400GB DC P5800X Optane SSD.
However, I ran into some unexpected expenses, so this purchase must wait some more.

 

[steamrick]

I treated myself to a P4800X...
... turns out the b-stock m.2 to u.2 adapter was delivered defective. Yay. I wonder how long that will take to resolve.

But I use the adapter for one of my other u.2 drives to confirm that the P4800X is not defective - and won't need active cooling, unlike the other two u.2 drives that'll definitely overheat if I leave them to their own devices.

I want to buy the 400GB DC P5800X Optane SSD.

Huh.
I'm a bit late to the thread, but my advice would be the exact opposite: get the larger P4800X.

Reasoning: The main advantage of Optane is the latency that's a small fraction of what even the fastest PCIe 5.0 SSDs can do - but just like with regular SSDs, Optane latency doesn't really change much across the generations.

As such, unless you have a very specific task that needs very high throughput (for which you'd probably do fine with a PCIe 5.0 SSD), you won't notice any difference in performance between the P4800X and the P5800X.

•A 4TB TLC NAND SSD (like the Samsung 9100 Pro 4TB) offers 0.3 Drive Writes per Day (DWPD) for 5 years.
Which equals: 1.2TB/Day.

•An Intel Optane DC P5800X 400GB offers 100 DWPD for 5 years.
Which equals: 40TB/Day.

Aside from Chia plotting, what usecase could possibly even require that much writing at a consumer level?

I've been using an Intel 905P with a waterblock for about 6 years now.

Why though? Compared to other SSDs, Optane barely gets warm. Even under load, it does just fine.

 

[NDRE28]

Huh.
I'm a bit late to the thread, but my advice would be the exact opposite: get the larger P4800X.

That's not a bad advice.
However, I want the best Optane that exists.

Aside from Chia plotting, what usecase could possibly even require that much writing at a consumer level?

By being able to write so much data on it, it means that, the drive will last for many decades.

 

[steamrick]

By being able to write so much data on it, it means that, the drive will last for many decades.

Last I checked, even significantly above average usage of a system disk will only cause at most 20~30TB of writes a year.
SSDs that have games or other data stored on them will usually get even less action

My last system SSD (970 Evo 500GB) got 53TB of writes over a 4.5 year period, or ~12TB/year. That's 25 years of usage by its TBW. Given that it's still showing a mere 4% percentage used in CDI, I expect we'll ditch m.2 before it would've gone defunkt.

Your average decent quality consumer drive will do about 1200TBW on a 2TB drive, which will take 40++ years to burn though unless you have special needs.

There's plenty of reasons for optane including

I want the best Optane that exists.

but longevity really isn't a problem for consumer workloads if you stop to think about it for a moment.

The two most probable causes for replacing an old SSD are
1) You need more data capacity or
2) The controller (or some other part of its circuitry) died and the SSD is now dead as a doornail

<- said by someone still using one of the notoriously unreliable OCZ Vertex 2 120GB SSDs from 2010 in an USB enclosure. I have a currently unused 1TB SATA SSD I could put in there instead but I'm not going to because I'm being stubborn about it.

NAND running out of P/E cycles and the SSD going into read-only mode very rarely happens. I've usually only heard of it happening with tiny (128GB) consumer SSDs used as cheap cache drives in QNAP/Synology NAS, which is just plain misconfigured. And even then it takes a few years.

 

[NDRE28]

Last I checked, even significantly above average usage of a system disk will only cause at most 20~30TB of writes a year.

Yes. That can be true for most users, however when producing music, one can use huge sound libraries, which are being loaded everytime a project is being opened.

but longevity really isn't a problem for consumer workloads if you stop to think about it for a moment.

"Longevity" doesn't only mean that the drive will continue to run, but it's also about: HOW is it going to run, years later?
SSDs tend to slow down over time.
In a consumer PC, an Optane or an SLC NAND drive runs at the same speed even after 10 years of usage.

 

[NDRE28]

<OP Update>

Hello!

I've made my decision, so I've bought the Dell EMC 053M3R - Intel Optane DC P5800X 400GB (SSDPF21Q400GBT) from eBay, for $578

I've also bought the StarTech PEX4SFF8639 (U.2 To PCIe 4.0 x4) adapter card, for $59, so I can connect the Optane to my motherboard.

It will take a few weeks for these 2 products to arrive.

QUESTION:
My ASRock X670E Taichi has 2 PCIe 5.0 x16 slots.
I am aware that by populating both PCIe x16 slots, they'll both drop at PCIe 5.0 x8 speed.
So, what happens if I am setting them both, in BIOS, at Gen4?
Won't they remain as PCIe 4.0 x16?

 

[steamrick]

So, what happens if I am setting them both, in BIOS, at Gen4?
Won't they remain as PCIe 4.0 x16?

That's not possible. No matter at what speed you set them at, you only have 16 PCIe physical lanes on the CPU. Turning that into more would require a PCIe switch. Those are very expensive. Also,

My ASRock X670E Taichi has 2 PCIe 5.0 x16 slots.

the second slot might have the physical dimensions of x16 for compatibilty, but it's only wired for x8

For further reference, here's the block diagram in the user manual:


Which is why instead of

I've also bought the StarTech PEX4SFF8639 (U.2 To PCIe 4.0 x4) adapter card, for $59, so I can connect the Optane to my motherboard.

I prefer to use m.2 -> u.2 adapters rather than using the very limited PCIe slots...

I've found the Delock 62984 to work very well:

Delock Products 62984 Delock M.2 Key M to U.2 SFF-8639 NVMe Adapter with 50 cm cable

www.delock.com

 

[evernessince]

I prefer to use m.2 -> u.2 adapters rather than using the very limited PCIe slots...

I've found the Delock 62984 to work very well:

Finding cable based adapters that are reliable is challenging. What work for some many not for others. Wendel from Level1Techs did a whole video on the topic, the only semi-reliable cables were those with redrivers (which cost $80+).

My ASRock X670E Taichi has 2 PCIe 5.0 x16 slots.
I am aware that by populating both PCIe x16 slots, they'll both drop at PCIe 5.0 x8 speed.
So, what happens if I am setting them both, in BIOS, at Gen4?
Won't they remain as PCIe 4.0 x16?

You'd have x8 PCIe 4.0. If you set it to PCIe 3.0, you'd have x8 PCIe 3.0. The number of lanes is physically wired and won't change regardless of what PCIe version you configure them to use. It's why x8 GPUs can be problematic on older motherboards, they will always at most have half the bandwidth the full 16 lanes could provide

 

[steamrick]

Finding cable based adapters that are reliable is challenging. What work for some many not for others. Wendel from Level1Techs did a whole video on the topic, the only semi-reliable cables were those with redrivers (which cost $80+).

I have three of that exact model from Delock and no trouble with any of them.
Though admittedly only one of my U.2 SSDs is PCIe 4.0, the other two are 3.0.

I don't know if this matters any to you, but Delock also isn't some random Chinese alphabet soup company, they're a German company specializing in adapters and cables.
As such, when I went looking for adapters they ranked way above random amazon or aliexpress finds claiming to support PCIe 4.0.

I've found the video you meant and as far as I can tell, Wendell never actually listed which adapters he tested and found not to work.

 

[NDRE28]

That's not possible. No matter at what speed you set them at, you only have 16 PCIe physical lanes on the CPU. Turning that into more would require a PCIe switch. Those are very expensive. Also,


the second slot might have the physical dimensions of x16 for compatibilty, but it's only wired for x8

For further reference, here's the block diagram in the user manual:
View attachment 393880

Which is why instead of

I prefer to use m.2 -> u.2 adapters rather than using the very limited PCIe slots...

I've found the Delock 62984 to work very well:

Delock Products 62984 Delock M.2 Key M to U.2 SFF-8639 NVMe Adapter with 50 cm cable

www.delock.com

OK. Now, I get it.
Thanks for the clarification.

(I know about the Delock cable.
I might buy buy one for a future U.2 drive.
At the moment, I've avoided adapter cables, because they introduce a bit of latency).

Finding cable based adapters that are reliable is challenging. What work for some many not for others. Wendel from Level1Techs did a whole video on the topic, the only semi-reliable cables were those with redrivers (which cost $80+).



You'd have x8 PCIe 4.0. If you set it to PCIe 3.0, you'd have x8 PCIe 3.0. The number of lanes is physically wired and won't change regardless of what PCIe version you configure them to use. It's why x8 GPUs can be problematic on older motherboards, they will always at most have half the bandwidth the full 16 lanes could provide

OK.
Now, I understand how PCIe lanes work.

(I wish I had the PCIe lanes option: x12 / x4).

 

[evernessince]

I have three of that exact model from Delock and no trouble with any of them.
Though admittedly only one of my U.2 SSDs is PCIe 4.0, the other two are 3.0.

I don't know if this matters any to you, but Delock also isn't some random Chinese alphabet soup company, they're a German company specializing in adapters and cables.
As such, when I went looking for adapters they ranked way above random amazon or aliexpress finds claiming to support PCIe 4.0.

I have nothing against the cable suggested but I'd contest that anecdotal evidence is enough to make a recommendation to someone else.

My primary criterion for selection an adapter is 1) It is certified to work 2) If not, has trusted sources verfied it as working

The answer to 1 is no for every adapter on the market. There are no certified PCIe 4.0 adapters or carrier cards. Only up to PCIe 3.0.

Right now the only adapters verfied by trusted sources are 1) redriver based M.2 cards 2) The startech U.2 carrier card linked earlier.

Your adapter may be great but I'd really like to see a trusted source review it before being able to say with confidence that it's good for 4.0 drives.

I've found the video you meant and as far as I can tell, Wendell never actually listed which adapters he tested and found not to work.

Correct, he doesn't state what doesn't work. For this application, I'm not sure why you'd want to take a chance on something that isn't verified to work with a high probability.

 

[A Computer Guy]

Yes.
I did made up my decision.
I want to buy the 400GB DC P5800X Optane SSD.
However, I ran into some unexpected expenses, so this purchase must wait some more.

Great! don't forget to Post your Anvil's Storage score for SSD when you get a chance.

Post your Anvil's Storage score for SSD

www.techpowerup.com

 

[NDRE28]

Great! don't forget to Post your Anvil's Storage score for SSD when you get a chance.

Post your Anvil's Storage score for SSD

www.techpowerup.com

I will.

I just picked up a 53M3R so I haven't had a chance to bench it yet, but it is powered up and formatted successfully mounted using a cheap $20 AIC from Amazon.
Note that per these specs it has a lower DWPD of 60 vs Intel's 100. Has some slightly different I/O specs as well. Not sure if it is using a custom controller or just conservative specs for Dell systems? Dell Express Flash P5800X (PCIe Gen4) and P4800X (PCIe Gen3) Technical Specifications and Information

Also, you can get the latest Dell drivers from here (the Intel Memory and Storage Tool doesn't work with the 53M3R): Dell Express Flash NVMe P5800x PCIe SSD Firmware Release

Hi!

I've bought the 053M3R 400GB drive.
It will take a few weeks to arrive.

About the drivers:
By accessing the link that you've provided, I get the message that the selected driver is no longer available.
Am I missing something?

By searching in the Drivers section, I've found this one:
Dell Express Flash NVMe P5800x PCIe SSD Firmware Release.
Driver name: Express-Flash-PCIe-SSD_Firmware_99WWV_WN64_1.0.0_A00_01.EXE
(Is this what I need?)

 

[tistou]

Hello all

I'm testing an Intel P5801x with a PCIe Gen4/Gen5 adapter on an "old" configuration (Intel X299), and the SSD is recognized as PCIe Gen 3.0 x1 in bios (instead of x4)
In Crystal Disk Info, it says PCIe Gen 3.0 x1 | PCIe 4.0 x4

I tested it instead of the Optane 905P, which has no issues (x4)

What could be the problem ?
I thought it was incompatible with the X299, but it works on an X99 platform (even older)

Thanks for your help

 

[NDRE28]

Hello all

I'm testing an Intel P5801x with a PCIe Gen4/Gen5 adapter on an "old" configuration (Intel X299), and the SSD is recognized as PCIe Gen 3.0 x1 in bios (instead of x4)
In Crystal Disk Info, it says PCIe Gen 3.0 x1 | PCIe 4.0 x4

I tested it instead of the Optane 905P, which has no issues (x4)

What could be the problem ?
I thought it was incompatible with the X299, but it works on an X99 platform (even older)

Thanks for

Hello all

I'm testing an Intel P5801x with a PCIe Gen4/Gen5 adapter on an "old" configuration (Intel X299), and the SSD is recognized as PCIe Gen 3.0 x1 in bios (instead of x4)
In Crystal Disk Info, it says PCIe Gen 3.0 x1 | PCIe 4.0 x4

I tested it instead of the Optane 905P, which has no issues (x4)

What could be the problem ?
I thought it was incompatible with the X299, but it works on an X99 platform (even older)

Thanks for your help

Hi!

How did you connect the Optane to the motherboard?
Was it through an adapter card?
(Please keep in mind that, certain adapter cards have jumpers on them that need to be put in a certain position for optimal functionality).

 

[steamrick]

I've had SSDs recognized as x2 and needed to physically remove them, boot up without the SSD, shut down, then put them back in before they'd finally get recognized as x4

 

[Octagon]

I just picked up a 53M3R so I haven't had a chance to bench it yet, but it is powered up and formatted successfully mounted using a cheap $20 AIC from Amazon.
Note that per these specs it has a lower DWPD of 60 vs Intel's 100. Has some slightly different I/O specs as well. Not sure if it is using a custom controller or just conservative specs for Dell systems? Dell Express Flash P5800X (PCIe Gen4) and P4800X (PCIe Gen3) Technical Specifications and Information

Also, you can get the latest Dell drivers from here (the Intel Memory and Storage Tool doesn't work with the 53M3R): Dell Express Flash NVMe P5800x PCIe SSD Firmware Release

It seems that the link you provided is now dead for the 2.0 firmware. Though the other one that is newer (but 1.0) is still available. You wouldn't happen to still have the files for the 2.0 driver, would you?