Ray Tracing and Variable-Rate Shading Design Goals for AMD RDNA2

[medi01]

its literally the title of the thread

The title of this thread deducts some of the goals that are part of the XSX console.
VRS is a rational thing to do, RT is more of a buzzwordy hype, like VR was, it might take off next year or two, or much later, we'll see.

Of goals AMD has next year, RT is certainly not high priority.

 

[cucker tarlson]

Of goals AMD has next year, RT is certainly not high priority.

well certainly you're the one to know that.
I mean yeah,just throw in some RT with what they got spare.

 

[medi01]

well certainly you're the one to know that.

Rich, coming from soneone who assessed AMD is getting out of its way to bring hardware accelerated RT gimmicks to the table.

They have 7nm EUV process to embrace, 350-ish mm2 chips to roll out in GPU business, at the very least. That is way more important than RT gimmick, obviously, given that even 2080 owners turn it off.

 

[cucker tarlson]

Rich, coming from soneone who assessed AMD is getting out of its way to bring hardware accelerated RT gimmicks to the table.

of course they are,you think they were planning on rt for consoles ?
what 350mm2 chips are they rolling out ? ones that would be almost instantly obliterated by consoles on feature set ? imo that's the reason why we're not seeing anything at $600 from amd, like 5800xt/5900xt.Comparisons with 2080 super just couldn't be avoided,while people can still buy 5700xt over 2060 super cause it's just an entry level rtx card.
nvidia is a smart devil.

 

[medi01]

of course they are,you think they were planning on rt for consoles ?

Audio RT bit was there since 2013.
For UI, I don't think they had.

They didn't plan for VR either. Sony made a big deal out of it, but I don't see it taking off.

what 350mm2 chips are they rolling out ? ones that would be almost instantly obliterated by consoles on feature set ?

Whatever makes it in into consoles, will be included in RDNA2 GPUs as well.

And thanks for "obliterated", remind me, how 2070 "obliterates" 5700Xt in sales, lol.

why we're not seeing anything at $600 from amd, like 5800xt/5900xt.Comparisons with 2080 super just couldn't be avoided

Huge chip, big problems.
5700 5500 and guaranteed 5600 are 7nm DUV.
With 7nm EUV around the corner,, it makes no sense to invest into big chip based on already outdated process, even for AMD who is so eagerly embracing new process nodes.

people can still buy 5700xt over 2060 super

People buy 5700XT over 2070 super, chuckle, not sure what you are on about. RT as a feature is some sort of a scam at this point, current gen cards suck even with the handful of the current gen games that support it. There is next to no use case for it, besides tech enthusiasms of some weird sort.

 

[cucker tarlson]

People buy 5700XT over 2070 super, chuckle, not sure what you are on about.

well yes,for saving money,not for performance.

And thanks for "obliterated", remind me, how 2070 "obliterates" 5700Xt in sales, lol.

people can still buy 5700xt over 2060 super cause it's just an entry level rtx card

I don't suppose nvidia would be selling turing agaist 5800xt/5900xt when ampere comes out in h1 2020 (probably).whatever $400-600 ampere cards will pack in terms of RT performance will probably be close to 2080Ti and higher.
2070 super can do 1080p/60 RT pretty easily,1440p RT when limited to shadows or more options at lower fidelity,which still blows current SSR out of the water.

 

[medi01]

whatever $400-600 ampere cards will pack in terms of RT performance will probably be close to 2080Ti and higher.

That would be a funny game to play for AMD, I guess.
Given, it's below 10% of the die size on Turings, it's still not quite negligible when your competitor has an option from not giving a f*ck at all, to coming up with hybrid solution that requires much smaller die size.

2070 super can do 1080p/60 RT pretty easily

It can do select RT gimmicks of certain kind in certain games at certain resolution... oh wait...

 

[cucker tarlson]

That would be a funny game to play for AMD, I guess.
Given, it's below 10% of the die size on Turings, it's still not quite negligible when your competitor has an option from not giving a f*ck at all, to coming up with hybrid solution that requires much smaller die size.


It can do select RT gimmicks of certain kind in certain games at certain resolution... oh wait...

like I said before,there's nothing stopping you from getting a non-RT card at the same price that a RT card sells for,given that 5700xt is 5% faster than 2060S out of the box and has less OC headroom it's an equally good option if you want to wait for RT to catch on,dunno about resale value tho.

 

[medi01]

it's an equally good option

It is indeed, just go with AIB:

 

[cucker tarlson]

It is indeed, just go with AIB:

I'm glad we agree on something

 

[ratirt]

like I said before,there's nothing stopping you from getting a non-RT card at the same price that a RT card sells for,given that 5700xt is 5% faster than 2060S out of the box and has less OC headroom it's an equally good option if you want to wait for RT to catch on,dunno about resale value tho.

I do know about resale value. It will still be very good. Do you know why? Because as it has been said before, RT is not making to the market by storm. If by some miracle it does and RT will flourish and every game will have it and starts using it and there would be awesome implementations we've never seen before and realism etc. Do you think your 2060 Super will be able to keep up with these games? It struggles now with basically any game which is using RT effects. (not to mention the RT effects are crippled due to the taxing power required) AMD can cut price can NV do that too? With it's fancy, expensive RT cores? I really doubt it.

 

[cucker tarlson]

I do know about resale value. It will still be very good. Do you know why? Because as it has been said before, RT is not making to the market by storm. If by some miracle it does and RT will flourish and every game will have it and starts using it and there would be awesome implementations we've never seen before and realism etc. Do you think your 2060 Super will be able to keep up with these games? It struggles now with basically any game which is using RT effects. (not to mention the RT effects are crippled due to the taxing power required) AMD can cut price can NV do that too? With it's fancy, expensive RT cores? I really doubt it.

hard to predict anything really.

 

[ratirt]

hard to predict anything really.

Is it really? For you this is hard to predict even though all odds are against it and no matter how this will start. RT flourish or goes down in the dumpster, the RTX cards will not make it with the RT cores and their price in both scenarios.

and yet this prediction of yours.

I don't suppose nvidia would be selling turing agaist 5800xt/5900xt when ampere comes out in h1 2020 (probably).whatever $400-600 ampere cards will pack in terms of RT performance will probably be close to 2080Ti and higher.
2070 super can do 1080p/60 RT pretty easily,1440p RT when limited to shadows or more options at lower fidelity,which still blows current SSR out of the water.

You didn't even blink an eye when predicting this. did you?
You mix reality with future unknowns. Like 2070 super can do 1080p/RT easily (maybe now but not likely), and Amper will come out (there will be no Amper btw the name was scrapped) with 2080 Ti perf or higher. If the RT moves forward (I think you want this and this drives you), then 2070 Super wont be enough. Basically it will end up the same as the 2060 Super just a bit less disappointing.

 

[cucker tarlson]

Is it really? For you this is hard to predict even though all odds are against it and no matter how this will start. RT flourish or goes down in the dumpster, the RTX cards will not make it with the RT cores and their price in both scenarios.

and yet this prediction of yours.

You didn't even blink an eye when predicting this. did you?
You mix reality with future unknowns. Like 2070 super can do 1080p/RT easily (maybe now but not likely), and Amper will come out (there will be no Amper btw the name was scrapped) with 2080 Ti perf or higher. If the RT moves forward (I think you want this and this drives you), then 2070 Super wont be enough. Basically it will end up the same as the 2060 Super just a bit less disappointing.

I mean it's hard to predict 5700xt resale value 2-3 years down the down the road,Jesus,quit being a prick.

PS5 is gonna have RT hardware,yet your wise ass prediction is

RT flourish or goes down in the dumpster

consoles will have RT while $450 5700xt from amd will not.I'm not debating,I'm stating the obvious.I just threw this resale value bit and you're friggin debating me on this. are you personally hurt or something ?

 

[ratirt]

I mean it's hard to predict 5700xt resale value 2-3 years down the down the road,Jesus,quit being a prick.

Why I'm being a prick? Because I have different opinion about this and have some arguments to support it pointing out you are mistaken and that you don't keep facts straight? I can tell you now that the resale value for the 5700 XT will be better than 2060S or 2070S for sure despite if RT will flood the games or it will be forgotten completely. This is why the 5700 AMD series will be really good in resale after 2 years in comparison to 2060S and 2070S.

 

[cucker tarlson]

Why I'm being a prick?

cause you're picking on something you shouldn't.

I can tell you now that the resale value for the 5700 XT will be better than 2060S or 2070S for sure

and Merry Christmas to you

 

[ratirt]

cause you're picking on something you shouldn't.


and Merry Christmas to you

Pricking about something you shouldn't? You have a serious attitude issues bro
Merry Christmas anyway Hope you will get whatever you need this year cause the next one might be a disappointment for you.

 

[cucker tarlson]

the next one might be a disappointment for you.

why ?

 

[efikkan]

So long as VRS has gears it can shift thru that hopefully subdivides with standard 24FPS animation frame rates it should be a great option with little downside. I could be used poorly, but so can RTRT and other things so that's nothing new.

That's not even how games work. Game simulation runs at what we call a tick rate, a fixed rate set to e.g. 30 Hz, 60 Hz, 100 Hz etc. Even when the frame rate fluctuates, the tick rate stays constant (otherwise the game would get out of sync). Frame rendering is usually not synced up with the tick rate.

The big problem with using advanced techniques like VRS is that it needs to be very well integrated into the game engine. Unfortunately, most top games today are using a third-party game engine, so the development team don't even touch the low-level engine code.

Fixing their driver is probably more important idk

It always is, and AMD definitely have some potential there.

I'd rather skip RT and go with higher FPS than use DLSS (I see the difference in-games with image quality with this thing on) to speed things up because RT is eating all the performance.

Any post-processing AA will ultimately not improve picture quality no matter how fancy it is. DLSS is a gimmick, while RT is not.

RT can already be useful if used skillfully for diffuse lighting rather than much more expensive specular lighting.

 

[ratirt]

why ?

Why not?
It is like you said.

hard to predict anything really.

You said we don't know what the future holds. Better expect less than you get.

Any post-processing AA will ultimately not improve picture quality no matter how fancy it is. DLSS is a gimmick, while RT is not.

RT can already be useful if used skillfully for diffuse lighting rather than much more expensive specular lighting.

Never said it will improve image quality now did I? I just want the image quality not to be worsened and that is a sincere concern from my side.
You got that one right. It can be useful but it is not about just the skillful use of it I'm afraid. RT is inversely proportional to performance. Better quality or better RT requires more horse power. So skillfulness, yes it would help to make the implementation (no glitches, no mistakes with the lighting implemented etc.) right but the horsepower to give the proper performance has to be there anyway. The last one is not here and that is why it is still a gimmick just to make a fuss around it, use it as a marketing tool scam. You have the right to think different. Just remember, the feature, Ray Tracing ( for games) has a huge business matter at this point. I think we all know what it means business right?

 

[cucker tarlson]

You said we don't know what the future holds. Better expect less than you get.

yes,that's why we're hyping up a cpu physics implementation we've never seen outside a few second long gameplay at the end of the video running at what looks like sub 30 fps on a cpu they did not disclose


sorry,I had a brain freeze,wrong thread

but I don't think we should expect little of amd,intel and nvidia.I think they'll all have really good launches next year.

 

[ratirt]

yes,that's why we're hyping up a cpu physics implementation we've never seen outside a few second long gameplay at the end of the video running at what looks like sub 30 fps on a cpu they did not disclose


sorry,I had a brain freeze,wrong thread

but I don't think we should expect little of amd,intel and nvidia.I think they'll all have really good launches next year.

I sure hope so. Expect as much as you can but predict for the worst.

 

[cucker tarlson]

I sure hope so. Expect as much as you can but predict for the worst.

ampere on 7nm euv
rdna 2 with rt support on 7nm+
intel with HT on i5s (this is the one I'm waiting for since I wanna go back to buying $200 gaming oriented cpus instead of +$350 workstation ones)
ryzen 4000 later on

this is gonna be a good year

 

[ratirt]

ampere on 7nm euv
rdna 2 with rt support on 7nm+
intel with HT on i5s (this is the one I'm waiting for since I wanna go back to buying $200 gaming oriented cpus instead of +$350 workstation ones)
ryzen 4000 later on

this is gonna be a good year

These are the some of the releases I'm waiting for.
I wait for 4000 Ryzen. I wanted to go 3000 series but decided to wait for the new one.

rdna 2 with rt support on 7nm+

You make it sound like it needs some special architecture stuff (like NV RT cores to actually make ray tracing possible which is a ruse BTW) to make RT work on a graphics card. As a matter of fact RT is a technique that requires driver supporting and enough graphics card's processing power to make the real time ray tracing work fast enough (especially for gaming purposes).

 

[cucker tarlson]

You make it sound like it needs some special architecture stuff (like NV RT cores to actually make ray tracing possible which is a ruse BTW) to make RT work on a graphics card. As a matter of fact RT is a technique that requires driver supporting and enough graphics card's processing power to make the real time ray tracing work fast enough (especially for gaming purposes).

there's require and require.
look what a 11tflops gpu with no dedicated rt hardware (1080Ti) does agaist a 6.5tflops rtx 2060 with rt asic

Test wydajności Quake II - Path tracing na API Vulkan wstrząsa... | PurePC.pl

Test wydajności Quake II - Path tracing na API Vulkan wstrząsa... (strona 7) Test wydajności Quake II z patch tracing na API Vulkan. Czy rewolucyjna technika oświetlenia zmieni starego Quake 2 nie do poznania? I jakiego sprzętu do tego potrzeba?

www.purepc.pl

you'd need 2.5x 1080Ti's power to match a rtx 2060


imo RT will stay an optional technology for at least a decade.but I can't see any gpu manfufacturer not supporting it starting from mid range cards.

the alternative to buying a $400 card and enjoying ray traced shadows/reflections in a few games is paying the same for the same performance and not having it.really.