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Subtle input lag both mouse and keyboard computer just feels 'off'

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Apparently he's known around OCN and was banned there for this exact same thing.

I don't know how can you legitimately suggest any of that to carry a shred of weight or truth cause it's urban myth added up to outright lies, so yeah I'm excusing myself now
 
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That clicking issue, makes me wonder if it's the mouse, but didn't you say that you tried different mice?
Hi there,
Yes I've tried different mice and different keyboards. Now one thing I haven't tried is actually changing PSU brand - I've always used Corsair (1200 and now 1600i) which tbh were/are a bit overkill. However, I just read that someone had the exact same issue for years like I have had and they switched PSUs and boom it fixed the problem - within that post it would appear that PSU brands use OEM manufacturers meaning that Corsair use another company to make the PSUs for them then slap their brand on it and so if there is a problem then it could potentially persist through a series because it's the same company/parts etc, not sure if I got that right but that's how I interpreted it. So I will give that a go once I have the money and get back to you. Also, just on one of Roach's solutions I am using displayport because I thought that was the best but I could switch to HDMI. Now I will say I used to have an old DVI in my old monitor+setup when I was using 1080 (60hz) and I definitively noticed a difference between HDMI and DVI .. there was no displayport on my old monitor but the DVI was much better than the HDMI now I'm not sure if that has anything to do with cable quality but I preferred the response of DVI.

Lastly, to the person who said that the problem is because I use an AMD cpu and mobo well the problem persisted prior to my current build and then I was using an i9-9700k so I think that can be ruled out.

Again, I appreciate all the help folks and will try to get through as many of the solutions as I can and rule out as I go, thanks.
 
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Hi there,
Yes I've tried different mice and different keyboards. Now one thing I haven't tried is actually changing PSU brand - I've always used Corsair (1200 and now 1600i) which tbh were/are a bit overkill. However, I just read that someone had the exact same issue for years like I have had and they switched PSUs and boom it fixed the problem - within that post it would appear that PSU brands use OEM manufacturers meaning that Corsair use another company to make the PSUs for them then slap their brand on it and so if there is a problem then it could potentially persist through a series because it's the same company/parts etc, not sure if I got that right but that's how I interpreted it. So I will give that a go once I have the money and get back to you. Also, just on one of Roach's solutions I am using displayport because I thought that was the best but I could switch to HDMI. Now I will say I used to have an old DVI in my old monitor+setup when I was using 1080 (60hz) and I definitively noticed a difference between HDMI and DVI .. there was no displayport on my old monitor but the DVI was much better than the HDMI now I'm not sure if that has anything to do with cable quality but I preferred the response of DVI.

Lastly, to the person who said that the problem is because I use an AMD cpu and mobo well the problem persisted prior to my current build and then I was using an i9-9700k so I think that can be ruled out.

Again, I appreciate all the help folks and will try to get through as many of the solutions as I can and rule out as I go, thanks.

HDMI is pin and data compatible with DVI-D. They are technologically and functionally identical, the difference being the physical form factor of either connector.

The difference comes from your new monitor, not the cable itself.
 
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@RJARRRPCGP
no need to up volts, jsut get a true-sinewave UPS, prevents brown/blackouts.
seems to be better for psu as well, nothing going bad after years of hard use vs ppl i know not using UPS.

@LabRat 891
just looking at a few things you commented about, shows you might wanna do a web search yourself, not repeating others without knowing.

fact is mbr is limited, and when looking at things like win10/11, M.2/pcie/recovery, for most internal drives, mbr makes no sense anymore.
liking is not really relevant here.

and no, high end tvs dont switch to non processing with a pc signal.
they might switch to game mode, but usually only if they detect VRR,
which the tv will recognize as a console, NOT pc input.

not gonna go into the other things, as those above already tell me enough.
 
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My newly built 10+ year old PC has been feeling old for some reason.
 

dgianstefani

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amorou

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Saw this post and none of the replies are really covering the more important issues right now, so here's some of the things to pay attention to in 2023 (I might have to make a dedicated thread since there's even more issues to cover really):

First section - Cables
-----------------------

1) HDMI vs displayport - displayport has slightly better frame delivery (smoothness) but responsiveness feels worse than DVI and HDMI (which both feel more similar to each other while displayport feels alien compared to the two). I think HDMI and DVI send everything on the fly while displayport uses some type of packetization system. The guy that runs the website Blurbusters knows a lot of technical stuff about monitors and says HDMI should be faster but not noticeable to human reflexes. To me it just feels like the controls are more dead in general on displayport, but it's possible I've just not found a high quality enough cable like I have for HDMI which brings us to the next subject. (oh, and you also need to have "content type reported to display" set to "desktop programs" in Nvidia control panel desktop color settings)

2) The cable itself - It's not a meme. Both cable quality and thickness actually matter. There's a pretty large difference in using a thin (30 AWG) vs thick HDMI cable (24-26 AWG). If you look at any technical literature for things like HDMI, you can tell the design specifications are running the cables practically to the breaking point. Then you have things like each internal cable bleeds interference onto the others causing the signals to arrive at different times creating skew. Whether it's just a resistance difference or skew prevention, I don't know. I just know you can feel a difference in a 26 and 30 AWG cable.

3) HDMI 2.0 vs 2.1 - might be anecdotal, might not, but I purchased a high end HDMI 2.1 cable and for some reason it felt massively worse than my 26 AWG HDMI 2.0 cable. Not sure if they're doing something weird with 2.1 cables but I tend to avoid them now. I've also purchased exotic 2.0 cables made of silver instead of copper and it made my movements all feel like they had an overshoot and I didn't like it. So things like resistance actually seem to do things in display cables while ultra-casuals or people that don't play games at all will claim it's impossible.

4) Some people will claim this is BS, but I think I've noticed a 'directionality' to how HDMI cables are built as well. As in plugging them in one direction will give different results from the other. I don't know if it's a polarity phenomenon, manufacturing issue, or other, but I've switched cables back and forth numerous times with my current cable and it seems to give better results in one specific direction. Some expensive vendors like this "Audioquest" brand even have arrows on the cables indicating which end should go to the monitor and which to the GPU. Then they also make 'one way' cables that claim to reduce interference as well. All I'm saying is that there's a lot more than meets the eye with cables and it's not a simple matter:



Monitors
----------
1) Brand - I've used a decent amount of monitors but not every brand like Gigabyte and MSI. In my experience, I noticed brands like Samsung and Dell tended to feel more normal while I didn't seem to like brands like LG at all. I remember seeing some pro player who bought like 10 monitors and came to a similar conclusion as me. There's a pretty good amount of options (some hidden, some not) in gaming monitors now so if the vendor doesn't expose the right ones or set up whatever hidden ones properly, you can see how this would be an issue. I play well with a 144hz Samsung but can't hit the side of a barn with a 240hz LG for instance. We're talking mega absurd difference in how each of the two monitors controls which just should not be the case, but it is.

2) Overdrive - Probably one of the bigger industry scams that exists. I've never used a single LCD where this did not have a detrimental effect on cursor movement. Every LCD I've used from Samsung TN panels, PLS, IPS, and my current Samsung VA all have better cursor movement with overdrive off. Might be worth having worse cursor movement and better pixel response to some people, but not me, so I've had this setting off for the last 20 something years on every monitor. And yes, I always check to see if there's a difference and it's always the exact same result with each monitor. The motion clarity difference is noticeable (not enormous, but it's there), but I've never had a monitor that was usable with it on and not usable with it off.

3) Again, another setting people will claim is voodoo, but specifically with Nvidia cards, HDMI "limited" feels a bit snappier than HDMI "full" in the control panel. Whether limited sends less data or it's just the more native HDMI spec, I don't know what the mechanical cause is, but it feels a bit snappier. Only problem is it's very difficult to use this setting since you need a monitor that supports toggling between HDMI full/limited, and most don't. Not sure how this plays out on the AMD side.

Memory latency
------------------
Your memory settings have an enormous effect on cursor movement as well as there being a large difference in single rank vs dual rank. Single rank feels faster but less in control, while dual rank cursor movement feels slower and more controlled. In the DDR3 days I didn't like how single rank felt at all and felt it was too slippery, but in DDR4 and 5 it might be more of a preference thing. Timings also play a huge role where I always prefered how 7-7-7-20 1333mhz felt over something like 9-9-9-24 1600mhz in the DDR3 era. I've never since found a setting as good as 7-7-7-20 for DDR4 or 5. Something about that was always good for me where changing it to even something like 7-7-7-21 was worse.


A real shocker (or maybe not) - Networking effects on cursor movement
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some casuals will claim this is voodoo, but I promise you it's not. If you have a combination modem and wifi router, all those billion settings on the router actually affect your mouse movement. Things like "readyshare" for media sharing and all the others. If you just want a single setting to test this theory, one of the more egregious ones is "Airtime Fairness." Toggle that on and off and you'll notice an immediate effect where having it on the cursor is slower.

So what is the solution to this network idiocy for a gaming PC? You can either attempt to figure out the golden settings for your router (of which none might exist), or you can buy something like an Arris modem at Walmart (that has no options at all and no wifi) with two ethernet ports on the back and run one of those cables to your PC and run the other cable to a wifi router, I guess. The only problem here is you need TWO simultaneous IP's to do this, and Comcast will likely refuse to give you another. I think it's possible to pay a small fee to get a 2nd one if you use a Comcast business internet plan (they're not even really more expensive), but they might refuse to do it still anyway.

Intel vs AMD
--------------
It's not big news that Ryzen 1+2 are not going to be good for latency orientated people. Ryzen 3 is supposedly much better and even beats Intel in inter-core latency now, but there's too many other external factors to flat out say one would be better or worse for gaming. Each one probably uses a different Microsoft provided USB chipset driver and things like that. All it takes is somebody not doing a good job on that to ruin the entire system for gaming. I'm curious to how Ryzen 3 feels compared to Intel nowadays, but I can't really justify setting $600-1000 on fire to find out it's worse than the systems I already have.

I'm surprised there's no reputable person in the entire universe with attention to detail who can say "I play better on Intel than Ryzen 3" or vice versa. Since Intel started to implement the same chiplet and latency problems AMD had of Ryzen 1+2, I imagine this is probably an objective thing now and not preference where one is going to be less worse than the other in terms of how moving a mouse around on the screen feels.


This one will piss you off if you spent a lot of money on an aftermarket card
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to mine digital crapcoins and had like 30 GPUs at one time. I noticed the 'founder' edition, aka direct from the manufacturer had better mouse movement than the 3rd party cards. Some brands being worse than others, but the founder edition was always superior. I think they put the A-team engineers on the founder cards while giving them a year or two to design the thing while they have the fly by night engineers on aftermarket cards with dumber goals (infinite power phases), short time span, bad BIOS's, numerous fans creating harmonic issues, etc, etc.

Power supplies and power strips
-----------------------------------
I'm not really a big PSU guy. It's kind of a weird field where components are always changing even on the same model, but anecdotally the power supplies WITHOUT caps inside the cables feel better to me. I also noticed a similar thing with power strips where for some reason the cheaper power strip with no internal 'conditioning' seemed to provide a more direct cursor movement. Sounds good, right? Having a bunch of caps all over the place "conditioning" your power. Apparently it's not, and I'm guessing having these things all over the place creates resistance issues and you basically just want only the giant capacitors in your PSU and that's it.


Web browser - a ridiculous rabbit hole
------------------------------------------
Another setting people will claim is voodoo, but it's not. If I load up an old build of Chromium which I know is good (857942), then delete it and load up a newer version, you can tell cursor movement differs a lot from the last web browser you've had open, like the OS somehow gives browsers too much leeway to fool with system integration. It's the same thing if you load up say, Windows 8.1, open Internet Explorer and turn off "Smooth scrolling." It then feels like that browser setting alters system-wide mouse movement when whatever the browser is doing should be entirely contained and sandboxed into the browser itself instead of screwing with the operating system.

If you want to test this theory yourself, just delete your Chromium settings in users/usernamehere/AppData/local folder. Now open chromium (settings and bookmarks will all be default) and do something like delete that default "chrome webstore" link on the new tab page. You should notice mouse movement instantly becomes faster after deleting that link for no reason. I have no idea why or how browsers and their settings have this type of impact on global system performance when virtually no other apps do things like this. If I change a setting in "Borderlands 3" it does not alter my system-wide mouse movement. Browsers should be the same way. If I was king I would send whoever is responsible for this to prison.


More BS in PCs that makes you want to give it up and buy a console instead
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you plug in your motherboard USB headers (i.e. for front panel USB access), usually you can feel your mouse movement stiffen up some potentially being a bit less responsive. Is it the cables not being shielded acting as antennas? Is it just the cables suck and create some type of grounding issue? Don't know. Don't care. I just notice they tend to be a problem so I stopped plugging them in.


Non-deterministic mouse sensitivity
---------------------------------------
When you click the DPI button on your mouse to toggle through settings it will feel completely different each time you arrive back at the same 800 DPI or whatever you started at. I first noticed this back in the Logitech Avago 3090 days where I attempted to utilize both 400 and 800 DPI in games and noticed if I toggled between the two settings the mouse would feel off until I did a system reboot. But once rebooted that 800 DPI tended to feel the same each time. That was on mice with no internal memory.

Now, fast forward to mice with internal memory and you have the same problem but instead of the mouse feeling normal after reboot, your 800 DPI now feels different than before as if you've gained or lost sensitivity. Some type of issue with bit flipping on crappy internal memory? No idea. I just notice toggling through DPI now is not deterministic and your mouse will feel different each iteration of 'toggling' DPI.

Ferrite chokes
----------------
These seem to actually do things. I had a day one launch edition Logitech G402 for instance and for some reason it controlled a lot better than the two other later units I had. After taking them apart I noticed the original had this ferrite choke built inside the mouse itself around the USB cord while they were omitted from later units. I suspect this is why the original felt better. Companies like Endgame mice seem to utilize a generous portion of ferrite chokes as well and their mice tend to behave in a very predictable way compared to many others.

MBR vs GPT booting
-------------------------
There's a difference between the two and you'll have to try both to see which you like better. I've always preferred MBR vs GPT - UEFI on Win 8.1 for instance. Then for some reason if you turn off CSM while booting 'pure' UEFI mouse control goes to utter crap. I believe Intel is supposedly removing CSM soon as well (if they haven't already).
I tested all the things you mentioned except the browser thing , they all correct
And I tested (its a hobby/curse of mine) them before I read your posts
Its interesting to find a guy that notice these
 

beeep

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Hey!

I have a similar issue, mouse feels floaty and everything on screen seems delayed, can't ever aim at people properly. I have changed 3 platforms so far, 4 cpus (10600k, 11700k, 5800x3d, 13900k ) and 3 GPUs ( RTX 3070, Radeon 6800, RTX 3090 ), several mice, keyboards and 2 monitors. Upgraded my internet from 150MB to 1GB Fiber Optic, changed ISP also. Changed PSU from Corsair to Evga ( both 750 Watts only though, 80+ Gold Rated ). The issue seems to have started when I moved to my current home about 3 years ago, for the first 1.5 years I didn't play any fps games seriously, so I didn't really notice it. Haven't had this issue in the last 3-4 houses I lived. The issue persists.

I am a OG competitive counter strike player and a software developer, interested in PCs and tech, very sensitive to input lag, I know very well when I miss because of skill and when it's something else. I can tell the difference between 120hz and 165hz by naked eye, or when FPS drops below 140ish. This is not a fps or refresh rate issue, they all seem fine, fps is mostly above 200. It's not a temperature issue either, that seems fine also, I've used 2 different cases and even ran the PC without side panel to be extra super dooper cool ( GPU and CPU stayed at around 60-70ish degrees ).

Issue goes away late night most of the time, after around 12:30 or so. I do live next to the train tracks in London, they are like 30-40 meters away from my PC, not sure if this could be a problem.

Was wondering if you figured it out, please. Did you get to change that PSU?

My next move is to try a 850W Platinum PSU -> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09PLFB...5G2TS3H7&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it
And maybe a power conditioner / stabilizer -> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B21PR...5G2TS3H7&psc=0&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it

After that I think I am going to move house, because I am just renting here.
 
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My next move is to try a 850W Platinum PSU -> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09PLFB...5G2TS3H7&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it
And maybe a power conditioner / stabilizer -> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B21PR...5G2TS3H7&psc=0&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it

After that I think I am going to move house, because I am just renting here.

Do NOT use power stabilizers with Active PFC power supplies (aka any power supply that makes into 80 Plus Bronze or higher). Power gaps and peaks are created when power is briefly interrupted (the infamous stabilizer click relay noise) and this can cause the PFC circuit to malfunction and damage your power supply. You should buy a line filter/surge protector with a breaker to protect it from any instability on your mains instead.

When purchasing an UPS/No-break battery backup, ensure that it is a pure sine wave model if you intend to use it with an active PFC power supply. Sawtooth or "Simulated/modified sine wave" models are unsuitable for much of the same reason.

sine-wave-diagram.jpg
 
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I do live next to the train tracks in London
Electric drive, off overhead mains?

I have a Glass and Ceramics plant a couple mi away from me. If I record video or audio anywhere nearby, one can HEAR the load from the electric furnaces in use.
I can only imagine what the waveform looks like for the homes nearby...

Hopefully, you will find a way to fix it. These 'spooky' EMC/Power Stability issues are an absolute bane to the gamer-enthusiast community
(We *always* end up pedantically arguing and/or accusing e/o of being crazy)

Ideally, whatever regulatory authority is involved, should probably be investigating the issue. However, these kinds of highly-technical issues are both beyond many (even if it's their job to know), and easily bullocks'd even when discovered.
 

beeep

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Do NOT use power stabilizers with Active PFC power supplies
Hey! Thanks for the warning, I will not that do then. Tbh the electrical parts in your comment are a bit over my knowledge.
You should buy a line filter/surge protector
So, is this what I should try then? -> WAudio AC Noise Power Filter - Line Conditioner Power Purifier Surge Protector with Universal Outlets : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools
ensure that it is a pure sine wave model
I think I understand this, but I have no idea how to check if they are pure sine wave.

I will come back with a list of PSU and Power Filter, maybe you guys can help me pick what's better, thanks a lot !

Electric drive, off overhead mains?

I have a Glass and Ceramics plant a couple mi away from me. If I record video or audio anywhere nearby, one can HEAR the load from the electric furnaces in use.
I can only imagine what the waveform looks like for the homes nearby...

Hey, thanks for the reply!

Not sure what an electric drive is. There are no overhead mains at all anywhere close to the house, actually I have no idea where they are in the neighberhood.

This is the area I live in:

1709662699285.png


I never paid much attention but I just noticed now while writing this, at the end of the tracks there's the Southern Electric Traction Group ... I always knew there is some kind of train depot there or something, but didn't notice this. Could this be it?

Very often I hear industrial machinery from there, they are definitely working on something, maybe repairing the trains. From their website ( SETG – Southern Electric Traction Group ), it seems they do repairs or something like that, they maintain the trains .. or the lines? I am not sure ... I am going to try and look into this more.

1709662981637.png


Hopefully, you will find a way to fix it. These 'spooky' EMC/Power Stability issues are an absolute bane to the gamer-enthusiast community
(We *always* end up pedantically arguing and/or accusing e/o of being crazy)

Ideally, whatever regulatory authority is involved, should probably be investigating the issue. However, these kinds of highly-technical issues are both beyond many (even if it's their job to know), and easily bullocks'd even when discovered.

Yeah, well, I am passed the "I could be crazy" phase, this is to obvious for me. I am not sure I want to go at war with any authority, I have no idea how I could provide any kind of evidence. We had an electrician in the house barely a week ago, he found a few minor things and a grounding ( earthing ) issue which he said he fixed, although it was in specs, he said.

If this can't be fixed with some good PSU, or power filter/conditioner, the easiest for me would be just to move house at the moment.

PS: sorry if I am not very clear today, I am not feeling very well.
 
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I think I understand this, but I have no idea how to check if they are pure sine wave.
It should be listed in product features/specifications. The rule of thumb is: if the product does not specifically say it is pure sine, then it probably isn't.
 

beeep

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It should be listed in product features/specifications. The rule of thumb is: if the product does not specifically say it is pure sine, then it probably isn't.

Aha, so it would be a feature they would like to advertise, I see. Thanks! I will start looking into this also.
 
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I recommend anyone that has a modern DOCSIS 3.0+ cable modem to unplug fully/turn it off it and try our your PC before and after. Tether phone internet for basic internet if you can.

Some of you may be surprised.. Mid/high split frequency spectrum causes a ton of interference with local devices, especially when grounded. There are obviously other sources, but this is a big one for North America.

If FTTH is available in your local neighborhood, this can help some people. https://broadbandmap.fcc.gov/home. NA broadband map if you don't know what is around you.
---------

"Spread spectrum clock" helps on modern 12th Gen + Intel but you need a specific board/bios to have it properly working. I think I explained it in a previous post.

"No fuss" would be lower end MSI boards since they're the only Mobo manufacturer abiding to "intel spec". (Granted.. high end MSI will avoid it due to using external BCLK generators).

Standard laptops out of dell/AW will be locked to SSC intel spec for 12th+ gen.

"SSC" exists due to modern EMI output in high frequency processors and sharing spectrum with other devices. Converting narrow band to wide band signaling.


Having to optimize bios settings to have proper mouse feel is beyond what anyone should need to go down.. but that's my2c.
 
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I recommend anyone that has a modern DOCSIS 3.0+ cable modem to unplug fully/turn it off it and try our your PC before and after. Tether phone internet for basic internet if you can.

Some of you may be surprised.. Mid/high split frequency spectrum causes a ton of interference with local devices, especially when grounded. There are obviously other sources, but this is a big one for North America.

If FTTH is available in your local neighborhood, this can help some people. https://broadbandmap.fcc.gov/home. NA broadband map if you don't know what is around you.
---------

"Spread spectrum clock" helps on modern 12th Gen + Intel but you need a specific board/bios to have it properly working. I think I explained it in a previous post.

"No fuss" would be lower end MSI boards since they're the only Mobo manufacturer abiding to "intel spec". (Granted.. high end MSI will avoid it due to using external BCLK generators).

Standard laptops out of dell/AW will be locked to SSC intel spec for 12th+ gen.

"SSC" exists due to modern EMI output in high frequency processors and sharing spectrum with other devices. Converting narrow band to wide band signaling.


Having to optimize bios settings to have proper mouse feel is beyond what anyone should need to go down.. but that's my2c.
Here we go, again.... Mixed (good) info and dis-info/under-understandings.

I'll say this:
Electro-Magnetic Compatibility is a very complex field, with *many* parties having legal and financial interests in covering up or distracting/distancing responsibilities.

A real-world everyday example: The 5G Spectrum and ATC + Satellite Comms interferance.
A PC enthusiast example: No definitive answer as to the cause of USB problems on Ryzen. Latency-increasing changes in AMD's AGESA.

@beeep
"Electric Traction"
Yes. That's (likely) the (primary/root) cause.
Yes. Your regulatory authorities should address the issue.
No. You're not (likely) going to get anyone to believe you, and may even see 'retaliation' if pushed. (anything done to 'address' the issue, will cost SETG money)

Since you mentioned that moving locations is an already on-the-table option, that is probably the direction I'd go. Just... try not to move someplace w/ even worse EMC conditions :laugh:
 

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Here we go, again.... Mixed (good) info and dis-info/under-understandings.

I'll say this:
Electro-Magnetic Compatibility is a very complex field, with *many* parties having legal and financial interests in covering up or distracting/distancing responsibilities.

A real-world everyday example: The 5G Spectrum and ATC + Satellite Comms interferance.
A PC enthusiast example: No definitive answer as to the cause of USB problems on Ryzen. Latency-increasing changes in AMD's AGESA.

@beeep
"Electric Traction"
Yes. That's the cause.
Yes. Your regulatory authorities should address the issue.
No. You're not going to get anyone to believe you, and may even see 'retaliation' if pushed. (anything done to 'address' the issue, will cost SETG money)

Since you mentioned that moving locations is an already on-the-table option, that is probably the direction I'd go. Just... try not to move someplace w/ even worse EMC conditions :laugh:
Nothing I said was dis-info.

The only subjective statement I wrote was people shouldn't have to be forced to optimize bios settings to have "subjectively proper" mouse feel. There's a reason why the PC industry doesn't mess with "EMI" past internal testing of their own products.

I mean... we can argue load line calibration on cpu vcore will solve issues for certain people/environments, but you shouldn't have to need an oscilloscope to figure that out.

Electromagnetic issues usually come from high frequency/power package scenarios. If the receiving device is lower power, EMI will and should be less of a factor.

Modern DOCSIS hardware on mid/high split is a big culprit for local interference. You can test this with an AM hand radio. People with FTTH won't be subject to the same "EMI". Only EMI on fiber would come from the ONT GPON/XGS device itself when transcoding to copper.

SSC does help nullify issues on Intel end (12th+ gen), assuming proper implementation, but it won't completely solve it if other sources are a factor.
 
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Nothing I said was dis-info.
Some of the things mentioned/how they were mentioned, are commonly passed around places like Reddit w/ little to no attention to the details.
I owe you an apology for being 'triggered' (based upon past experiences).
The only subjective statement I wrote was people shouldn't have to be forced to optimize bios settings to have "subjectively proper" mouse feel. There's a reason why the PC industry doesn't mess with "EMI" past internal testing of their own products.
Many believe anything regarding mouse responsiveness (that's not a spec on a box) is "Snake Oil". However, my experiences go in-hand with yours.
I'd also agree that (industry standard) EMI testing 'is a sh*t'. But, it's kinda like Microsoft Windows' legendary (past) reputation for instability: There's just too many scenarios to reasonably test for.
I mean... we can argue load line calibration on cpu vcore will solve issues for certain people/environments, but you shouldn't have to need an oscilloscope to figure that out.
AFAIK, that would be the only way to properly address the issues.
TBQH. @ this point in time, why don't Enthusiast OCing boards have some basic Oscilloscope functions in-built? (I've seen XOCers utilize such tools)
Electromagnetic issues usually come from high frequency/power package scenarios. If the receiving device is lower power, EMI will and should be less of a factor.

Modern DOCSIS hardware on mid/high split is a big culprit for local interference. You can test this with an AM hand radio. People with FTTH won't be subject to the same "EMI".

SSC does help nullify issues on Intel end (12th+ gen), assuming proper implementation, but it won't completely solve it if other sources are a factor.
I'm not finding any disagreement here. :oops:
 

beeep

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I recommend anyone that has a modern DOCSIS 3.0+ cable modem to unplug fully/turn it off it and try our your PC before and after. Tether phone internet for basic internet if you can.

Hey, thanks for trying to help !

Hmm, I switched to fiber internet a couple of months ago ( while trying to solve this issue ), so now I have only the fiber optic cable coming in to the small transformer box and then an internet cable to the modem and cable from that to my PC upstairs. That being said, the old internet cable, from Virgin Media, is still in the house and probably still connected to their main router on the road ( or whatever they connected it to ). It's not an internet cable though, it looks like a coaxial cable and used to go into the router, I think virgin media provide internet, tv and landline phone through those cable ( I only had internet ).

If FTTH is available in your local neighborhood, this can help some people. https://broadbandmap.fcc.gov/home. NA broadband map if you don't know what is around you.

I'm in London, England, so I don't think I can use that.

"Spread spectrum clock" helps on modern 12th Gen + Intel but you need a specific board/bios to have it properly working. I think I explained it in a previous post.

I ended up reading about "Spread spectrum" before while trying to fix this issue, my old Z490 MSI motherboard had an option to turn this on and off but it didn't seem to help with the issue. (MSI Z490-A PRO Motherboard ATX - Supports Intel Core 10th Gen Processors, LGA 1200, Memory Boost (DDR4-4800MHz/OC), 3x PCIe 3.0 x1, 2 x M.2 Gen3 x4, HDMI, 2.5G LAN : Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories)

This is the motherboard I have currently have and it doesn't seem to have the "Spread spectrum" option at all -> MSI MAG Z790 TOMAHAWK WIFI Motherboard ATX - Supports Intel Core 12/13th Gen Processors, LGA 1700, DDR5 Boost (7200+MHz/OC), 1 x PCIe 5.0 x16, 1 x PCIe 4.0 x16, 5 x M.2 Gen4, 2.5Gbps LAN, Wi-Fi 6E : Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

Same for the the AM4 motherboard ( doesn't have the option ) -> MSI MAG B550 TOMAHAWK MAX WIFI Motherboard, ATX, AM4 - AMD Ryzen 5000 Ready - DDR4 Boost 5100+MHz/OC, PCIe 4.0 & 3.0 x16 Slots, M.2 Gen4 & Gen3 Slots, 2.5G LAN, Wi-Fi 6E, Bluetooth 5.2 : Amazon.co.uk: Computers & Accessories

Anything else I can try? Maybe play around with Load line calibration? I wouldn't know what to change it to though ... I have a 13900k CPU now in my machine.

"Electric Traction"
Yes. That's (likely) the (primary/root) cause.
Yes. Your regulatory authorities should address the issue.
No. You're not (likely) going to get anyone to believe you, and may even see 'retaliation' if pushed. (anything done to 'address' the issue, will cost SETG money)

Since you mentioned that moving locations is an already on-the-table option, that is probably the direction I'd go. Just... try not to move someplace w/ even worse EMC conditions :laugh:

Yeah, maybe it is .. it would be hard to prove, I wouldn't even know where to start and how expensive it would be. Every other electronic in the house ( TVs, Laptops, Phones ) seem to work fine, but they're not meant to have responsive times measured in milliseconds, so it wouldn't really matter. It's ok, we were thinking of moving anyway, our rent has increased twice in a row and it's now similar to more central areas. I was thinking of moving to our old neighborhood ( Putney, where we first stayed in London ), I used to play CSGO back then casually and it worked perfectly fine, here's a clip :) -> How to get out long on dust2 CSGO (youtube.com)
 
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Some of the things mentioned/how they were mentioned, are commonly passed around places like Reddit w/ little to no attention to the details.
I owe you an apology for being 'triggered' (based upon past experiences).

Many believe anything regarding mouse responsiveness (that's not a spec on a box) is "Snake Oil". However, my experiences go in-hand with yours.
I'd also agree that (industry standard) EMI testing 'is a sh*t'. But, it's kinda like Microsoft Windows' legendary (past) reputation for instability: There's just too many scenarios to reasonably test for.

AFAIK, that would be the only way to properly address the issues.
TBQH. @ this point in time, why don't Enthusiast OCing boards have some basic Oscilloscope functions in-built? (I've seen XOCers utilize such tools)

I'm not finding any disagreement here. :oops:
It's honestly impossible to standardized this kind of testing though. Especially if "X" device influences "X" in a single environment.

I mean, you can turn off all electricity in your house and your PC being the only thing plugged in would prob feel different from that change alone.

"EMI" is always going to be a spectrum. Not something anyone can specifically solve... even if moving. The best that can be done is to share examples of devices or hardware that contribute to what a PC gamer could experience in a hardware stack without going off the deep end with optimization... I guess thats my point.

I mentioned cable modems specifically because of how much interference they put out and will put out once local North American providers switch to full high split freq spectrum for symmetrical DL/UL.. Could be different in certain areas if Hybrid Fiber Coax (HFC) amplification devices on pole or in ground are variable.

I do notice the people that are plagued by "EMI issues" are generally more old school or legacy gamers. Makes you wonder how much if this is subjective bias or preference for a certain kind of latency. Not doubting theres an issue or difference when switching locations with same setup either.

@beeep

Z790 tomahawk defaults with SSC enabled, but "100MHZ BCLK lock on" in advanced CPU will offset it like other brands. Try both.

You can also try power limiting your CPU to 65W PL1/2.. to see if this "helps", but you will tank FPS obviously.
 
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It's honestly impossible to standardized this kind of testing though. Especially if "X" device influences "X" in a single environment.
Mhmmmm. I honestly hope AI/MI can be used for more accurate (reliability) testing and prediction. 'AI' can actually work with such immense and dynamic data sets.
I mean, you can turn off all electricity in your house and your PC being the only thing plugged in would prob feel different from that change alone.
I've done it. You are correct.
It *sounds* nutty (even to me) trying to describe/explain, the quantifiable and personally-noticed differences between on-mains, on-UPS, and on-Generator. o_O
"EMI" is always going to be a spectrum. Not something anyone can specifically solve... even if moving. The best that can be done is to share examples of devices or hardware that contribute to what a PC gamer could experience in a hardware stack without going off the deep end with optimization... I guess thats my point.
A lot of us gamers/enthusiasts/WfH'ers don't have the proper tools, let alone expertise.
However, as you're getting at: you can drill down, with what testing can be done, and can be repeated + compared
I mentioned cable modems specifically because of how much interference they put out and will put out once local North American providers switch to full high split for symmetrical DL/UL.. Could be different in certain areas if Hybrid Fiber Coax (HFC) amplification devices on pole or in ground are variable.
Interesting. Not the first I've heard of this.
TBH, since learning about the debacle between Linksys and HAM operators, I honestly have just come to assume most consumer-facing WAN/LAN equipment is pretty noisy.
I do notice the people that are plagued by "EMI issues" are generally more old school or legacy gamers. Makes you wonder how much if this is subjective bias or preference for a certain kind of latency. Not doubting theres an issue or difference when switching locations with same setup either.
TBQH, I think us old skool'ers were used to CRT displays and processing pipelines that were simple and low-latency. We (more/less) have a 'trained eye' for such.
(However, even 'trained senses' can be fooled or interpreted incorrectly)

Personally and subjectively: Somewhere around the Pentium 4 era, I *swear* it became nearly-impossible to get 'penultimate smoothness'.
It's been one of my personal driving-forces in adopting High Refresh and Variable Refresh rate displays. But, I've both experienced and read-on much more in-depth issues.
 
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Hey!

I have a similar issue, mouse feels floaty and everything on screen seems delayed, can't ever aim at people properly. I have changed 3 platforms so far, 4 cpus (10600k, 11700k, 5800x3d, 13900k ) and 3 GPUs ( RTX 3070, Radeon 6800, RTX 3090 ), several mice, keyboards and 2 monitors. Upgraded my internet from 150MB to 1GB Fiber Optic, changed ISP also. Changed PSU from Corsair to Evga ( both 750 Watts only though, 80+ Gold Rated ). The issue seems to have started when I moved to my current home about 3 years ago, for the first 1.5 years I didn't play any fps games seriously, so I didn't really notice it. Haven't had this issue in the last 3-4 houses I lived. The issue persists.

I am a OG competitive counter strike player and a software developer, interested in PCs and tech, very sensitive to input lag, I know very well when I miss because of skill and when it's something else. I can tell the difference between 120hz and 165hz by naked eye, or when FPS drops below 140ish. This is not a fps or refresh rate issue, they all seem fine, fps is mostly above 200. It's not a temperature issue either, that seems fine also, I've used 2 different cases and even ran the PC without side panel to be extra super dooper cool ( GPU and CPU stayed at around 60-70ish degrees ).

Issue goes away late night most of the time, after around 12:30 or so. I do live next to the train tracks in London, they are like 30-40 meters away from my PC, not sure if this could be a problem.

Was wondering if you figured it out, please. Did you get to change that PSU?

My next move is to try a 850W Platinum PSU -> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B09PLFB...5G2TS3H7&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it
And maybe a power conditioner / stabilizer -> https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B21PR...5G2TS3H7&psc=0&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it

After that I think I am going to move house, because I am just renting here.
Hi there, problem still remains. I made a video highlighting the issue on Youtube .. Input lag and floaty mouse (youtube.com) you can check it out. As I point out the issue occurs also in the Bios. To answer your question on PSU, yes I changed the PSU and no joy :(
I would love to move to my old house where I know for a fact everything worked perfectly because the change does coincide with the removal of our

old electric meter...

old electric meter.jpg


...to the new meter....

new meter.JPG
 
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Hey! Thanks for the warning, I will not that do then. Tbh the electrical parts in your comment are a bit over my knowledge.

So, is this what I should try then? -> WAudio AC Noise Power Filter - Line Conditioner Power Purifier Surge Protector with Universal Outlets : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools

I think I understand this, but I have no idea how to check if they are pure sine wave.

I will come back with a list of PSU and Power Filter, maybe you guys can help me pick what's better, thanks a lot !



Hey, thanks for the reply!

Not sure what an electric drive is. There are no overhead mains at all anywhere close to the house, actually I have no idea where they are in the neighberhood.

This is the area I live in:

View attachment 337774

I never paid much attention but I just noticed now while writing this, at the end of the tracks there's the Southern Electric Traction Group ... I always knew there is some kind of train depot there or something, but didn't notice this. Could this be it?

Very often I hear industrial machinery from there, they are definitely working on something, maybe repairing the trains. From their website ( SETG – Southern Electric Traction Group ), it seems they do repairs or something like that, they maintain the trains .. or the lines? I am not sure ... I am going to try and look into this more.

View attachment 337778



Yeah, well, I am passed the "I could be crazy" phase, this is to obvious for me. I am not sure I want to go at war with any authority, I have no idea how I could provide any kind of evidence. We had an electrician in the house barely a week ago, he found a few minor things and a grounding ( earthing ) issue which he said he fixed, although it was in specs, he said.

If this can't be fixed with some good PSU, or power filter/conditioner, the easiest for me would be just to move house at the moment.

PS: sorry if I am not very clear today, I am not feeling very well.


No experience with audio-grade filters, I just use a standard one that has a fuse in case of a blowout because my mains is unstable (my formerly residential area is growing aggressively commercial as of late and the power lines just weren't built for this kind of load) but that device looks like it might help, seems like it's essentially a coil and there's no signal processing going on. However, it is clearly no substitute for correct grounding, if you have no clue about the shape or condition of your electrical installation, consulting an electrician may be a good idea.
 
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Hi there, problem still remains. I made a video highlighting the issue on Youtube .. Input lag and floaty mouse (youtube.com) you can check it out. As I point out the issue occurs also in the Bios. To answer your question on PSU, yes I changed the PSU and no joy :(
I would love to move to my old house where I know for a fact everything worked perfectly because the change does coincide with the removal of our

old electric meter...

View attachment 337807

...to the new meter....

View attachment 337808
Oh. Oh, boy... "smart meters" what a 'bag'.

On the bright side, here in the States, sometime after they forced us to transition I had a 2-month period of free power (~$9.00 bill, normally $500-700 every 2 months)
One can assume it was a flub on their end, but it co-incidentally occurred w/ my *open* mining rack running on the wall opposite the meter.
TBQH, I believe these smart meters were 'rushed out' w/o proper EMC testing (and I'd bet people are phreaking them and [wisely] not speaking of it.)
 
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I believe these smart meters were 'rushed out' w/o proper EMC testing

No problems with those. This smart one is actually also old. The first analog meter is simply rolfcopter, most probably you can cheat it with a strong magnet and it will stop counting, if you pump a heavy impulse, it will count backwards :D.
 
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Display(s) 1-AOC G2460PG 24"G-Sync 144Hz/ 2nd 1-ASUS VG248QE 24"/ 3rd LG 43" series
Case D450 | Cherry Entertainment center on Test bench
Audio Device(s) Built in Realtek x2 with 2-Insignia 2.0 sound bars & 1-LG sound bar
Power Supply EVGA 1000P2 with APC AX1500 | 850P2 with CyberPower-GX1325U
Mouse Redragon 901 Perdition x3
Keyboard G710+x3
Software Win-7 pro x3 and win-10 & 11pro x3
Benchmark Scores Are in the benchmark section
Hi,
Mouse tracers weird in bios nothing but a mouse setting in windows.
I'd guess a usb issue

Power wise good UPS could equal out any main power output issue.
 
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