TechPowerUp is Hiring a Motherboard Reviewer

[W1zzard]

undervolting and underclocking.

Honest question, is that even relevant to motherboard reviews? Shouldn't the experience be the same, just depending on the CPU, no matter the motherboard? they all have virtually the same controls for voltage?

 

[ARF]

Honest question, is that even relevant to motherboard reviews?

Yes.

Shouldn't the experience be the same, just depending on the CPU, no matter the motherboard?

They have different BIOS versions which are also very important.

they all have virtually the same controls for voltage?

I don't know about this.

 

[W1zzard]

They have different BIOS versions which are also very important.

Please elaborate what you'd like to see tested here.. at the time of review there is just one BIOS version, the newest one. I don't think anyone will use an older BIOS version just for undervolting?

Yes.

In which way?

 

[mechtech]

“Our current reviewer, ir_cow, is going to focus on DRAM module reviews exclusively. “

So does that mean he will have time to test this kit??

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[ir_cow]

“Our current reviewer, ir_cow, is going to focus on DRAM module reviews exclusively. “

So does that mean he will have time to test this kit??

Crucial 64GB Kit (32GBx2) DDR4-3200 UDIMM | CT2K32G4DFD832A | Crucial.com

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Maybe? First someone has to provide me with a sample.

 

[mechtech]

Maybe? First someone has to provide me with a sample.

Maybe you can borrow mine

 

[ARF]

Please elaborate what you'd like to see tested here.. at the time of review there is just one BIOS version, the newest one. I don't think anyone will use an older BIOS version just for undervolting?


In which way?

Stability is also key when undervolting.
What if with BIOS 0 you can get your CPU stable at 1.0V at 5.0GHz, while with the next BIOS version that stability improves to 0.95V for 5.05GHz?

If we take the AMD X570 boards, they have plenty of BIOS releases and each and every one of them is better than the previous one.
I see users reporting (only one example) better DDR4 memory compatibility/higher stable clocks with each new version.

I don't know if it is a good idea to review a board with the first BIOS version. Maybe postpone the first review until a mature BIOS is released.
Or, write the first review with the original BIOS, but then update the review using the information gathered with each new BIOS version.

 

[Shrek]

write the first review with the original BIOS, but then update the review using the information gathered with each new BIOS version.

Not sure reviews get updated often

 

[damric]

@W1zzard

I would see if Thomas Soderstrom (aka crashman) is available. He was one of the best motherboard reviewers at Tom's before they got bought out and I know he expressed interest in joining your team in the past.

 

[Assimilator]

Whatever happened to Anand, anyways? I heard he moved to a job at Apple but haven't heard anything about him since he took it.

 

[ir_cow]

don't know if it is a good idea to review a board with the first BIOS version. Maybe postpone the first review until a mature BIOS is released.
Or, write the first review with the original BIOS, but then update the review using the information gathered with each new BIOS version.

I suggest going with the newest BIOS available. Otherwise it comes a cat and mouse game. Its hard to know who doesn't update the BIOS and only use the one shipped vs the ones who will install the newest. Newest "generally" fixes things. If something is whacky, I'll revert back just to check. Reviewing with the newest (at the time) is generally going to be the best option really I think.

Sometimes during launch reviews you'll get 2-3 updates in a week. It is nice to update the charts once in a while, but that takes time. For example I checked ASRock X670E Taichi after launch when BIOs 1.08 came out. Did a few quick benchmarks. Nothing changed perf wise, so I didn't update the charts.Now with the Ryzen meltdown BIOS updates, memory support has gone down, but if you say we're using DDR5-6000 already, it wouldn't change anything for you.

So the rabbit hole is infinite if you let it be. On that note, if you give a product a hard time in the review and your not in the newest BIOS, probably going to get a email asking you to retest with the newest.

 

[Pluribusunum47]

Hello
First of all Thank You for this awesome Site/Institution . Im using it a whole lot of time in the last few years.

Im a technician and started @ age 14 with Amiga 500 and Basic
Nowadays im doin Homerepairs mostly
GPU-Cards , i try to fix things and try to understand how it works ( mediumwise)
I build Home Network/Compi on my own.
I have full understanding of PC from 286 time A20 gate to nowadays technics . So for you im bit of a nerd like doin stuff on my own.im not 24/7 nerd anymore but its my life . I did some reviews and liked it they way to overlook on details . I like upgrading and Benchmarks but not the hardcore way always try to get use the most of that what i have.
Greetings

ASRock Z790 PG Sonic Edition Review - 17 HR ~​

EVGA Z790 CLASSIFIED Review - 35 HR ~​

ASRock Z690 Phantom Gaming-ITX/TB4 Review - 30 HR ~​

You are responsible for the whole review. All text, graphs, pictures, formatting, benchmarking, editing, etc. Here is the thing about my hour count. I am not the fastest writer with most reviews around 8-10K in words. YOU don't have to match what I do. I've been writing reviews based on what I want to see in a proper review. Also I cut stuff like audio testing because I don't have the right equipment for it (don't use rightmark In/Out method!). It is a balancing act of what is necessary to back up your conclusion and what is more fluff that may not add much to the article in terms of helpful information.


If steep is the same as different, than yes. I feel like you have to know a little bit about everything to grok it all. Though, no one starts that way. I spent a good amount of time reading XOC forums, reading CPU reviews, reading other MB reviews over the last 11-12 years of reviewing stuff. Writing a graphic card review is vastly different from a motherboard. I started with Mice, Keyboards, Cases. Eventually did a few motherboards and memory reviews, switch to GPUs for the NV 20 and 30 series, AMD 5000 / 6000. Applied to TPU afterwards and here I am doing motherboards and memory again.

Keyboards and Cases are a great way to get started, because I think are much harder. Mice and Keyboards are very subjective. If you can do a good keyboard and detailed case review, you probably will be okay to start with a motherboard.

I think the hardest part is always a product launch review. No one can really help you (besides wiz). You have a product guide of course, but you are kind of left to figure things out on your own until the product officially launches. For example when Alder Lake launched, DDR5 was new. No one had any idea what the upper limit was outsides probably the engineers. Is 330 watts CPU load normal??? AM5 comes along, DDR5 is 1 yr old, but once again what is the limits. Is DDR5-6400 suppose to work??? It says DDR5-6600 on the QVL, so what gives? These are questions you will have to traverse. However the simply solution is just not talk about it in the review.... Don't know? Don't mention it. It is better than giving the wrong information, but it comes with a hidden cost of a review lacking useful information to the readers.

My first two Reviews are case Reviews and thats hard with no possibility to use newest content or no imagination like abaut airflow with the biggest components or cabel Management for mid or pro user and so on . And neutral but also a little bit sarcasm with no bad language. Be true to yourself and what you write noone need "honey" in large amounts only in small dosis.

 

[chaoshusky]

I think it depends on the type of motherboard. If your reviewing a XOC motherboard, yeah, probably want to spend a good amount of time checking out the features. If its a budget B760 MB with no overclocking, probably not. Between VRM thermal test and playing around, you will quickly find quirks. Like the Z790 Apex I've been using. Needs LLC of 6 because the vdroop is so high under load it will crash otherwise with a OC. Great MB otherwise, but that is something worth mentioning. Expect...maybe it's just me. Haven't found any forums posts of this problem. However, this isn't a problem for me on a $250 entry MB...sooo.

That's not a problem on a $250 board? Hah...maybe RMA it? My Z690 nor Z790 board does that, doesn't over-volt too much either, negative offset of 70mv does the job as my 12900K is fairly forgiving lol

Hilariously i have the ASRock Sonic motherboard, couldn't help myself.. Not the best for the money in terms of VRM phases or features but it was fast as hell out the box, funnily enough.

I suggest going with the newest BIOS available. Otherwise it comes a cat and mouse game. Its hard to know who doesn't update the BIOS and only use the one shipped vs the ones who will install the newest. Newest "generally" fixes things. If something is whacky, I'll revert back just to check. Reviewing with the newest (at the time) is generally going to be the best option really I think.

Sometimes during launch reviews you'll get 2-3 updates in a week. It is nice to update the charts once in a while, but that takes time. For example I checked ASRock X670E Taichi after launch when BIOs 1.08 came out. Did a few quick benchmarks. Nothing changed perf wise, so I didn't update the charts.Now with the Ryzen meltdown BIOS updates, memory support has gone down, but if you say we're using DDR5-6000 already, it wouldn't change anything for you.

So the rabbit hole is infinite if you let it be. On that note, if you give a product a hard time in the review and your not in the newest BIOS, probably going to get a email asking you to retest with the newest.

Strangely on Windows, firmware can be upgraded via Windows Update, but that's OEM boards only. You make very good points.. Ryzen meltdown, heheh. I'll run the newest BIOS if it fixes a problem i'm having or improves memory training, etc.. However on my old Gigabyte board i stuck with F6 instead of F7 as they accidentally left the development menu accessible and it did actually behave better with my RAM than F7 - but that's obviously edge case and likely down to my own hardware being a little quirky together lol

Quite funny when you can make your desktop board think its a laptop..

 

[DiMaestro]

Zak.

 

[chrcoluk]

Honest question, is that even relevant to motherboard reviews? Shouldn't the experience be the same, just depending on the CPU, no matter the motherboard? they all have virtually the same controls for voltage?

I think it is maybe yes, it does seem the different board vendors setup their default configurations differently, and they can also make mistakes on bios's my new motherboard e.g. set tjmax to 115C instead of 100C on its first raptor lake bios and effectively was also overvolting the cpu out of the box due to bad ac/dc loadline defaults that also wasnt fixable as they were not exposed as setting (thread is on tpu forums), that latter issue would impact undervolting and overclocking results.

Then there is the difference in bios layouts, the wording, whether settings are exposed or not, do the features actually work? I have used bios's where the setting does absolutely nothing. Again on my new asrock z690 steel legend, there is a "asrock dram timing optimisations" which is on by default, I toggled it and compared the timings, absolutely nothing changed lol.

 

[ir_cow]

Again on my new asrock z690 steel legend, there is a "asrock dram timing optimisations" which is on by default, I toggled it and compared the timings, absolutely nothing changed lol.

Some of the sub-timings should change like tREFI. Not going to see that in CPU-Z.

 

[chrcoluk]

Some of the sub-timings should change like tREFI. Not going to see that in CPU-Z.

Posted the sub timings is attached. I didnt compare in cpuz.

 

[ir_cow]

This is how things turn into a 40hr review. Chasing ghosts basically lol.

Is it important to know, depends. If the optimization is too aggressive then often higher memory freq configurations don't work. But say you disable it I run it strictly by the XMp profile and and maximum frequency doesn't change then its a mute point.

Posted the sub timings is attached. I didnt compare in cpuz.

tWR and tREFI changed I see.

 

[chrcoluk]

This is how things turn into a 40hr review. Chasing ghosts basically lol.

Is it important to know, depends. If the optimization is too aggressive then often higher memory freq configurations don't work. But say you disable it I run it strictly by the XMp profile and and maximum frequency doesn't change then its a mute point.


tWR and tREFI changed I see.

They changed on the clock speed bump, that happens if the option is on or off, they auto calculated based on clock speed when set to auto.

But yeah, that would be my issue, I feel I would owe the reader to test all this stuff, thats why I said would be full time lol. In terms of the review if its something that doesnt work, it would just be briefly mentioned as tested with no observed difference.

 

[Mussels]

Would a review include how well a motherboard works with over-clocking? things could get excessive.

If i had the boards, i guarantee i'd be over and underclocking to see what they could handle - at the very least there'd be a comparison to how easy/difficult it is vs the other boards I own, even if it cant clock higher than them

MSI's automated RAM overclocking (Memory try it!) for example is a great feature even if i never really use their boards

Why? All of this methods of using is out of warranty of CPU.
Ps. Of course, I'm not against it, but the relevant parts of the review should include the necessary warning.

overclocking is useful to know the power limits of a motherboard, for VRM temps and voltage accuracy under loads - beyond that it's utterly worthless, as no one is going to run a motherboard at the bleeding edge of what it can handle all day every day unless they want to spend all day every day, fixing the problems that causes

 

[TumbleGeorge]

overclocking is useful to know the power limits of a motherboard,

Yes this is one of points of marketing strategy number of VRMs.

 

[ir_cow]

Yes this is one of points of marketing strategy number of VRMs.

The actual load capabilities is more important than count. 8 phase 50A running at 13900K may be find for gaming, but a 2 hour render may cause a safety shutdown. Assuming it has some safeties in place that is.

Marketing would be like 16x 30A phases. High count for clout but not that good.

 

[Mussels]

I would welcome someone describing motherboards with poetry.

Forsooth, the board reminds me of thine Mother!
With rounded curves and frills that gloweth in the moonlit caverns of my E-ATX case,
Her Booty times are of legend and her Vdroop smoother than the silken anti-static lingerie she arrived in.

Total score:
Your mother out of my house.


Random requests like that add to my motivation, i'm an odd person.

Honest question, is that even relevant to motherboard reviews? Shouldn't the experience be the same, just depending on the CPU, no matter the motherboard? they all have virtually the same controls for voltage?

Being aware they can do it, is the part that matters.

Very few boards can undervolt with a plain voltage offset on the 5800x3D for example, yet its how mine runs 10-15W below the same CPU on any other board
(I run -30 curve and the voltage offset together) - we dont need it benchmarked, just to be aware X board has it and Y board doesn't

VRM's are frustrating because board makers deliberately mislead users all the time, even to the point they bluntly lie about what's included on the boards

Some things commonly treated as "bad" like VRM doublers, high end people like buildzoid say are totally fine

Some boards are just designed to be low end for low wattage CPU's and then marketing pretends they can do more - and we get situations like the "65 watt" 10700 non K that no one could predict, where a low end part uses absurd amounts of power the board makers likely couldnt plan for in advance

The more i think about this and the more i talk to ir_cow, the more tempting it's becoming to try for this. My only concern is about letting TPU down by being too slow when it comes to the charts side of things. I'm not an artsy person, so making those is something that would take me longer than testing the hardware.

I'd also really want to work with the requests of TPU members, i've been doing it to all our reviewers over the years so being able to fire up these boards and test the things users asks for matters to me - which means i'll need to stockpile enough parts to have more than the one review/test setup going at any given time.


On the underclocking features, i guess i'd look at:

Out of the box/BIOS defaults
Intel/AMD stock (PBO off, intel PL1/PL2 settings)
Unlimited settings and how the board handles it with a higher wattage CPU from the lineup - so we can tell users the maximum wattage range the boards should be used for
What under/overclocking settings the board has - even if they aren't tested in the review, like:

• Default voltages at stock/XMP
• Is it missing common OC/UV features (like offset voltages)
• Offset voltages, and for which components (CPU, SoC, etc)
• Does it having something unique and helpful like MSI's memory try it, or just generic "auto OC" crap that runs insane unsafe voltages?

 

[Pluribusunum47]

Please elaborate what you'd like to see tested here.. at the time of review there is just one BIOS version, the newest one. I don't think anyone will use an older BIOS version just for undervolting?


In which way?

In terms of bios there are always the newest version to use and in terms of testing i prefer stable use of Equipment and not all abiltys for heavy oc so i would write of possibiltys over testing to the brim and loosing focus on other Features. I see that Mainstream users often not see features they can use or even know they have it.

 

[zlobby]

Forsooth, the board reminds me of thine Mother!
With rounded curves and frills that gloweth in the moonlit caverns of my E-ATX case,
Her Booty times are of legend and her Vdroop smoother than the silken anti-static lingerie she arrived in.

Total score:
Your mother out of my house.


Random requests like that add to my motivation, i'm an odd person.


Being aware they can do it, is the part that matters.

Very few boards can undervolt with a plain voltage offset on the 5800x3D for example, yet its how mine runs 10-15W below the same CPU on any other board
(I run -30 curve and the voltage offset together) - we dont need it benchmarked, just to be aware X board has it and Y board doesn't

VRM's are frustrating because board makers deliberately mislead users all the time, even to the point they bluntly lie about what's included on the boards

Some things commonly treated as "bad" like VRM doublers, high end people like buildzoid say are totally fine

Some boards are just designed to be low end for low wattage CPU's and then marketing pretends they can do more - and we get situations like the "65 watt" 10700 non K that no one could predict, where a low end part uses absurd amounts of power the board makers likely couldnt plan for in advance
View attachment 304463

The more i think about this and the more i talk to ir_cow, the more tempting it's becoming to try for this. My only concern is about letting TPU down by being too slow when it comes to the charts side of things. I'm not an artsy person, so making those is something that would take me longer than testing the hardware.

I'd also really want to work with the requests of TPU members, i've been doing it to all our reviewers over the years so being able to fire up these boards and test the things users asks for matters to me - which means i'll need to stockpile enough parts to have more than the one review/test setup going at any given time.


On the underclocking features, i guess i'd look at:

Out of the box/BIOS defaults
Intel/AMD stock (PBO off, intel PL1/PL2 settings)
Unlimited settings and how the board handles it with a higher wattage CPU from the lineup - so we can tell users the maximum wattage range the boards should be used for
What under/overclocking settings the board has - even if they aren't tested in the review, like:

• Default voltages at stock/XMP
• Is it missing common OC/UV features (like offset voltages)
• Offset voltages, and for which components (CPU, SoC, etc)
• Does it having something unique and helpful like MSI's memory try it, or just generic "auto OC" crap that runs insane unsafe voltages?

Don't they have templates for the charts?