The State of Cryptocurrency

[StrayKAT]

Did I miss something? I thought crypto would be less energy intensive? I mean, there'd be less big data centers and such. edit: Not to mention all the real estate that these places take.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Especially when we consider quadros/Workstation cards and such.

Rendering. If a 0.12347 gets changed to 0.12348 when rendering, no one cares. That difference in terms of science can be monumental. For example, that tiny change in terms of light years is 95 billion meters.

So does pretty much everything man does involving carbon energy. Choosing to care about this one particular energy use case while not paying much attention or assigning such harsh terms to others is quite showing of bias.

Read the whole paragraph you quoted that from. I can't name one use of energy that's as wasteful as cryptocurrencies. The fact climate scientists are even taking a serious look at the impact should tell you how wasteful cryptocurrencies are. The article cites 43.9 MtCO2e for BTC and Etherum. USA's entire emissions for 2017 was 5142 MtCO2. That comes to 0.85%...and people want it to grow?

 

[R-T-B]

I can't name one use of energy that's as wasteful as cryptocurrencies.

Depends on how much you value the result. It has been obvious since this thread began you do not. That said I will not debate they are wasteful. But you know what? A lot of things are. I'm not into playing blame game with people's energy bills.

For example, that tiny change in terms of light years is 95 billion meters.

Depends on the context. If we are talking about the approximate distance to a star it probably really doesn't matter. My point is there are use cases and that's not really debatable.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Depends on how much you value the result. It has been obvious since this thread began you do not. That said I will not debate they are wasteful. But you know what? A lot of things are. I'm not into playing blame game with people's energy bills.

Let me rephrase: How many failures does BTC require before there is a success? What happens with all those failed results? That is wasteful.

Another example of waste, for example, is festive lights, but like everything else, there's a race to improve efficiency, not reduce it. A string of festive LED lights only use a few watts thanks to those improvements. Additionally, the cost is an incentive for people to turn them off/take them down. I wouldn't be surprised if one cryptocurrency farm consumes as much power in a day as a city uses for an entire season of festive lighting.

But let's extrapolate on that "incentive" component: BTC is designed to increase difficulty with time. It is designed to get more and more wasteful with each block. It literally has the opposite incentive that's healthy for participants and the planet. It's like the gambling industry getting people hooked on wasting electricity on the hope that you'll discover a Bitcoin.

Cryptocurrency is a special kind of wasteful.

 

[R-T-B]

How many failures does BTC require before there is a success? What happens with all those failed results? That is wasteful.

You should be looking at this from an ethics perspective ford. Math is useless there. You simply cannot quantify the value of an individuals percieved value in the product vs the cost, and since the equation you are looking for (cost vs benefit or product) depends on that, this is a useless way to examine it. The large energy usage is literally irrelevant if the other side of the equation is an unknown.

Math and ethics are seldom useful to each other for this very reason.

 

[hat]

That's where I have to wonder how anybody expected cryptocurrency in its current state to work. It certainly seems to be designed to be wasteful. A typical BTC transaction takes about an hour to process as it goes through (normally 6?) verifications... I suppose multiple verifications isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in a system doomed to fail, it doesn't help. When you consider that mining pays the miner and difficulty is built in to the system as a way to regulate itself when everyone and their grandma is doing it, it seems there's more than a simple payment network in mind.

If I can be allowed to be stupid for a moment, maybe it's like the law of equivalent exchange from Fullmetal Alchemist. You cannot create something from nothing, so you can't just invent a coin and say it's worth a million dollars, and trade it in for a million dollars. It has to garner value from somewhere. Maybe all the hardware being produced, which winds up being used for mining, and the energy going into that hardware to run it is part of its value. Yes, I know that the market value increases when actual money is dumped into it... as in, if someone bought 10,000 BTC tomorrow, the price would likely jump up quite a bit... but that doesn't seem to account for everything in my mind. If I bought those 10k BTC, who really cares? All I did was trade one currency for another. If things were a bit different, it could well be that my BTC is worthless and whoever sold it to me is laughing all the way to the bank. BTC has value because we give it value, in many ways. Buying hardware to run it and dumping energy into it is one way we give it value.

If you look at it that way, BTC is just another product. How much resources do you think it takes to build and run a steel mill, for example? Or any other factory? I always thought Cryptocurrency was made as a way to give the everyday person a little bit of that power typically held with an iron grip by banks and governments. No, it's not the most efficient thing in the world, but literally anyone can do it, and a lot of people do... a lot of regular guys like you and me. Maybe that's why it's so large, and consumes so much power... because there was a large market for it just waiting to happen.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

Let me provide an example of how ridiculous BTC is:

BTC has a market cap of $112 billion. IBM has a marketcap of $105 billion.

BTC is estimated to put out 36.6 MtCO2e in 2017. IBM put out 1.158 MtCO2e in 2017.

Similar valuation; 3,161% more carbon.

IBM's emissions are falling year over year; BTC's are rising.

'Nuff said.

...quantify the value of an individuals percieved value in the product vs the cost...

If a person buys a thing at a specific value then that's the value at which the buyer ascribes its worth. Difficulty for BTC is going to rise regardless whether or not its individual worth does. It's like a flame that's destined to run out of fuel.

 

[Papahyooie]

The argument of crypto being wasteful is full on 100% an opinion because it necessarily contains the element of how much you value the result.

To me, a decentralized money system is crucial to the long term maintenance of freedom. I value freedom highly. Therefore, I do not think it is wasteful. It's worth it to me. It isn't to you, but you cannot pass off that opinion as fact, as you tend to do, Ford.

Could a better, more efficient system be attained? Sure. And it will, eventually as long as crypto in general survives. Bitcoin is an early technology.

 

[R-T-B]

Let me provide an example of how ridiculous BTC is:

BTC has a market cap of $112 billion. IBM has a marketcap of $105 billion.

BTC is estimated to put out 36.6 MtCO2e in 2017. IBM put out 1.158 MtCO2e in 2017.

Similar valuation; 3,161% more carbon.

IBM's emissions are falling year over year; BTC's are rising.

'Nuff said.

No. You are still entirely missing the point. The point is you will never convince someone who thinks BTC is the greatest thing since sliced bread. That makes this whole debate moot.

The argument of crypto being wasteful is full on 100% an opinion because it necessarily contains the element of how much you value the result.

Thank you! Someone got it.

If a person buys a thing at a specific value then that's the value at which the buyer ascribes its worth.

If that's the case then there was a time when BTC blocks were still net profitable. Either way, I was talking the value of the network (presumably we all are) not the currency units. You simply can't put a numeric value on an individuals value of that.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

If that's the case then there was a time when BTC blocks were still net profitable. Either way, I was talking the value of the network (presumably we all are) not the currency units. You simply can't put a numeric value on an individuals value of that.

That's what a market cap is. BTC's is ~$111 billion (oh look, it fell a billion since yesterday).

 

[Space Lynx]

That's what a market cap is. BTC's is ~$111 billion (oh look, it fell a billion since yesterday).

That doesn't even buy 5 jets in our military, lol. Sad.

 

[Space Lynx]

I have a strong suspicion Monero is going to rise in price. I have seen... several more organisations begin to use it in the underground networks... Zcash on the other hand is never chosen in these... "communities"

Hmm. I have missed so many chances when I get this gut feeling I am right like 90% of the time... I think I will invest 1/3 of my savings, for long term, not going to play the short term. I also had this same feeling when Monero was $50 a coin, and it tripled in price within 6 months when I had that feeling the first time.

 

[dorsetknob]

Free Coins
The world's most popular bitcoin wallet is giving away $125 million worth of the cryptocurrency Stellar as part of a major initiative to encourage its use as a mainstream form of payment.

Blockchain, which is named after the technology that powers bitcoin, will give $25 of Stellar lumens (XLM) to its 30 million users starting this week, making it the largest cryptocurrency giveaway in history.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/new...-encourage-mass-adoption/ar-BBPriyk?li=AA54rU

 

[lexluthermiester]

Free Coins
The world's most popular bitcoin wallet is giving away $125 million worth of the cryptocurrency Stellar as part of a major initiative to encourage its use as a mainstream form of payment.

Blockchain, which is named after the technology that powers bitcoin, will give $25 of Stellar lumens (XLM) to its 30 million users starting this week, making it the largest cryptocurrency giveaway in history.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/new...-encourage-mass-adoption/ar-BBPriyk?li=AA54rU

This is interesting. How much value will it ultimately have if it's free?

 

[dorsetknob]

This is interesting. How much value will it ultimately have if it's free?

How much does the free Baggy of (insert drug of choice) cost if you then go on for more.

 

[StrayKAT]

You know what matters more than anything? Symbols and branding. A currency is almost a product in itself. Nothing named Zcash, Monero, Dogecoin.. or a mouthful like Ethereum would pick up in any widespread sense (if that's what you want).

 

[moproblems99]

Well I'll be damned, left the thread for a few weeks (or months, don't remember) and imagine that, it is the exact same conversation when I left. Ford still refuses to acknowledge anyone said anything, people are still complaining about wasted energy usage and then turn around and game. The only difference is the price of coins is still in the tank and GPUs are still sky high and they have no one to blame. Except themselves.

So here they are, back complaining in the crypto threads about an ideal that they can't figure out.

 

[Space Lynx]

Well I'll be damned, left the thread for a few weeks (or months, don't remember) and imagine that, it is the exact same conversation when I left. Ford still refuses to acknowledge anyone said anything, people are still complaining about wasted energy usage and then turn around and game. The only difference is the price of coins is still in the tank and GPUs are still sky high and they have no one to blame. Except themselves.

So here they are, back complaining in the crypto threads about an ideal that they can't figure out.

I predicted monero would rise a few days ago and it did. tsk tsk on you for skipping over me

 

[R-T-B]

That's what a market cap is.

No, that is the net valuation of all the currency units. It's not an individuals valueation of the network. Please stop trying to dance around this point.

 

[lexluthermiester]

How much does the free Baggy of (insert drug of choice) cost if you then go on for more.

Disturbing analogy, but I get your point.

 

[R0H1T]

That's where I have to wonder how anybody expected cryptocurrency in its current state to work. It certainly seems to be designed to be wasteful. A typical BTC transaction takes about an hour to process as it goes through (normally 6?) verifications... I suppose multiple verifications isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in a system doomed to fail, it doesn't help. When you consider that mining pays the miner and difficulty is built in to the system as a way to regulate itself when everyone and their grandma is doing it, it seems there's more than a simple payment network in mind.

If I can be allowed to be stupid for a moment, maybe it's like the law of equivalent exchange from Fullmetal Alchemist. You cannot create something from nothing, so you can't just invent a coin and say it's worth a million dollars, and trade it in for a million dollars. It has to garner value from somewhere. Maybe all the hardware being produced, which winds up being used for mining, and the energy going into that hardware to run it is part of its value. Yes, I know that the market value increases when actual money is dumped into it... as in, if someone bought 10,000 BTC tomorrow, the price would likely jump up quite a bit... but that doesn't seem to account for everything in my mind. If I bought those 10k BTC, who really cares? All I did was trade one currency for another. If things were a bit different, it could well be that my BTC is worthless and whoever sold it to me is laughing all the way to the bank. BTC has value because we give it value, in many ways. Buying hardware to run it and dumping energy into it is one way we give it value.

If you look at it that way, BTC is just another product. How much resources do you think it takes to build and run a steel mill, for example? Or any other factory? I always thought Cryptocurrency was made as a way to give the everyday person a little bit of that power typically held with an iron grip by banks and governments. No, it's not the most efficient thing in the world, but literally anyone can do it, and a lot of people do... a lot of regular guys like you and me. Maybe that's why it's so large, and consumes so much power... because there was a large market for it just waiting to happen.

Except you always get less than what you put in, sometimes a little bit less & most of the times a lot less. This is especially true for energy conversion, which can be one way of describing crypto.

 

[dorsetknob]

Except you always get less than what you put in, sometimes a little bit less & most of the times a lot less. This is especially true for energy conversion, which can be one way of describing crypto.

And there is
Chinese headmaster fired over secret coin mining at school
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46150107

A Chinese headmaster has been fired after a secret stack of crypto-currency mining machines was found connected to his school's electricity supply.
Teachers at the school in Hunan became suspicious of a whirring noise that continued day and night, local media report.
This led to the discovery of the machines, which were mining the crypto-currency Ethereum.
They racked up an electricity bill of 14,700 yuan (£1,600).
The excessive electricity consumption had previously been reported to the headmaster, Lei Hua, but he reportedly dismissed it as being caused by air conditioners and heating devices.

 

[Space Lynx]

And there is
Chinese headmaster fired over secret coin mining at school
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46150107

A Chinese headmaster has been fired after a secret stack of crypto-currency mining machines was found connected to his school's electricity supply.
Teachers at the school in Hunan became suspicious of a whirring noise that continued day and night, local media report.
This led to the discovery of the machines, which were mining the crypto-currency Ethereum.
They racked up an electricity bill of 14,700 yuan (£1,600).
The excessive electricity consumption had previously been reported to the headmaster, Lei Hua, but he reportedly dismissed it as being caused by air conditioners and heating devices.

So many people do get away with this though, and lazy bosses just end up writing it off as increased expensive, lol

amazing times we live in

 

[lexluthermiester]

amazing times we live in

That's not a new thing. There have always been people taking advantage of things. It a human trait, which is sometime a failure.

 

[FordGT90Concept]

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