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The Truth About CPU Soldering

Should Intel be using better thermal paste?


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cadaveca

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In the overclockable CPU's deffently yes and infact they shut be soldered. In non oc CPU's it dosent matter as much.

Its to cheap ass in my oppinian that not even the 2000 USD I9 7980EX is soldered, but used the same cheap ass crap tim as the cheapest CPU´s. And its not like intel cant do it cause my old I7 980X as far i know is soldered.
980X isn't mounted to another PCB like the 7900X is, which has main PCB, then another PCB under the IHS. The complexity of soldering such a contraption is reason enough for them to not to. Typing away from my 7900X @ 4.6 GHz that barely hits 75c under AVX under a 280mm AIO... some people are making this out to be a much bigger issue than it really is, and usually, its people who don't even have the item they are commenting on... go figure. :p I'm pulling a bit over 300W here, without any problems.
 
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Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
980X isn't mounted to another PCB like the 7900X is, which has main PCB, then another PCB under the IHS. The complexity of soldering such a contraption is reason enough for them to not to. Typing away from my 7900X @ 4.6 GHz that barely hits 75c under AVX under a 280mm AIO... some people are making this out to be a much bigger issue than it really is, and usually, its people who don't even have the item they are commenting on... go figure. :p I'm pulling a bit over 300W here, without any problems.
Thanks isn't enough... QFT (see my posts earlier).
 
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its a 140w chip....a cheap air cooler wont do it... i believe it. Welcome to HEDT requirements. :)

Ive reviewed 15 different x299 motherboards using two different 7900x with an h110i cooler able to overclock each cpu to all cores 4.5 ghz before it crapped out temperature wise. Our test uses occt which also uses avx instructions.
It's still pretty bad wrt solder, maybe even worse on normal desktop chips. Compare that with AMD TIM ~
 

cadaveca

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It's still pretty bad wrt solder, maybe even worse on normal desktop chips.

Yeah, and 2017 Huracan is faster than my 2017 Pacifica, but that doesn't mean it makes sense for me to drive the Huracan...

It's like using a flamethrower to kill a spider... OVERKILL.


Like look... nobody is going to claim that there are not better types of TIM materials... it's whether you NEED them or not that is the question, and many seem to not be able to seperate NEEDS from WANTS.
 
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Yeah, and 2017 Huracan is faster than my 2017 Pacifica, but that doesn't mean it makes sense for me to drive the Huracan...

It's like using a flamethrower to kill a spider... OVERKILL.


Like look... nobody is going to claim that there are not better types of TIM materials... it's whether you NEED them or not that is the question, and many seem to not be able to seperate NEEDS from WANTS.
You'd think that a $350 top of the line desktop chip shouldn't come with below average TIM, but obviously Intel wouldn't want to spend that extra dollar or two to make their chips even better. I mean there's a separate line of super specialty stores they need to support, catering to the enthusiast crowd, like Silicon Lottery?
 
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980X isn't mounted to another PCB like the 7900X is, which has main PCB, then another PCB under the IHS. The complexity of soldering such a contraption is reason enough for them to not to. Typing away from my 7900X @ 4.6 GHz that barely hits 75c under AVX under a 280mm AIO... some people are making this out to be a much bigger issue than it really is, and usually, its people who don't even have the item they are commenting on... go figure. :p I'm pulling a bit over 300W here, without any problems.

Well 7900X is also only 10 cores. try oc an I9 7960X or 7980EX and se how many watts they pull. They can pretty easy chug away whit 500-600 watt at 4.6 GHz and then you need a very beefy custom water loop. A friend of mine has a I9 7980EX in a custom water loop with 4 radiators and at 4.6 GHz it still hits 75 C pretty easy.
 

cadaveca

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Well 7900X is also only 10 cores. try oc an I9 7960X or 7980EX and se how many watts they pull. They can pretty easy chug away whit 500-600 watt at 4.6 GHz and then you need a very beefy custom water loop. A friend of mine has a I9 7980EX in a custom water loop with 4 radiators and at 4.6 GHz it still hits 75 C pretty easy.
I have mine 7980XE 4.6 also, draws 358 W. Cooled by a 240mm rad. You can find it in the last board review I posted... (hmm, which might not be live yet :p)
Again, I DO have these chips. That's why I comment. I have had every single one, and the ones I don't have now I sent to W1zz to do reviews with (which has it's own funny story too, W1zz did post about it recently :p). I had multiple 7900X.

You'd think that a $350 top of the line desktop chip shouldn't come with below average TIM, but obviously Intel wouldn't want to spend that extra dollar or two to make their chips even better. I mean there's a separate line of super specialty stores they need to support, catering to the enthusiast crowd, like Silicon Lottery?

It's not below average. The problem with most TIMs that aren't this tooth-paste like stuff Intel uses under the IHS is that they dry out over time, but the toothpaste does not, because it's already dry. It's actually better, and more expensive, than most other pastes. Liquid metal TIM does not dry out, but has other issues.

I'll be honest.. I don't like Intel, at all. However, I can separate fact from fiction pretty easy, so I don't buy into a lot of the "popular" stuff, because I really don't care who is better or whatever.
 
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People who use these CPUs after EOL can be unpleasantly surprised. Unlike a soldered die, the paste can become dried and cracked after repeated thermal cycles. It obsoletes the CPU while the die is perfectly functional. I don't see how a review site cares about this though.
 

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People who use these CPUs after EOL can be unpleasantly surprised. Unlike a soldered die, the paste can become dried and cracked after repeated thermal cycles. It obsoletes the CPU while the die is perfectly functional. I don't see how a review site cares about this though.
Ummmmm.....who....what??? :wtf:
 
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Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
It's still pretty bad wrt solder, maybe even worse on normal desktop chips. Compare that with AMD TIM ~
Hey hey! Great TIM, but cant overclock past its own boost anyway! At least it runs cooler. ;)
 
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Benchmark Scores They're pretty good, nothing crazy.
Does anyone NEED a K series CPU? I'm pretty sure this discussion has been purely about overclocking wants (very strong wants).
 
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Why are we being shown a 3 year old OC guide when we have a few years of empirical data from various review sites and have been shown many times by now what the actual difference is?

Someone bored?
 
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Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
Does anyone NEED a K series CPU? I'm pretty sure this discussion has been purely about overclocking wants (very strong wants).
But we can overclock them... pretty far, actually. Look at what Dave said... my posts before that as well. Again, there may be some meat left on the bone, but, to what end?
 

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Long way of saying Intel accomplishes planned obsolescence on the side.
So this is for real? First I have heard of it drying out. Or of TIM being a problem anyway just because it has dried.
 
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Intel need to use solder the cpus specially these coat more than $200. Deliding is not a feature, it is a burden.

One thing all people forgetting is "Thermal Conductivity".
In heat transfer the thermal conductivity of a subtance is an intensive poperty that indicates its ability to conduct heat. It is measured in watts per meter-kelvin(W*m-1*k-1). A subtance with higher thermal contuctivity will transfer more heat that a subtance with lower thermal conductivity.
That is why at same size, a Copper radiator performes better than a Aluminium radiator (cause Copper’s thermal conductivity is 401 W*m-1*K-1 and Aluminium’s thermal conductivity is 237 W*m-1*K-1).
Also intel may have good engineers that doesn't mean other company don't have good engineers.


A moment before you jump off the deep end.
1) Thermal energy is conducted 3 ways; convection, conduction, and radiation.
2) Thermal conductivity, as expressed, is conduction. It depends upon an area of surface contact. Thermal pastes, and solder, are designed to maximize functional area of contact. They don't need to be great conductors, only increase surface area at a rate greater than they internally resist thermal energy transfer. This is why materials like toothpaste actually match or beat higher quality TIM in tests. The proof is in the interface not drying out, to maintain that heat transfer.
3) The best thermal pastes are still largely insulation. You bang on about how important the value is, without really understanding the application. Please, don't spread that kind of misunderstanding. Take this as a personal request, as half understanding often leads to wholly incorrect statements.
4) Here's a moment to consider what you're saying. If price is no object I can beat copper. It's simple to suggest platinum and a manufacturing process of fricatively welding rods to platinum plate. That would give us better performance, but the increase in performance doesn't match the huge increase in cost. Likewise, soldering is a huge cost for a few degrees, which "nobody" in their consumer base (namely business, not enthusiasts) will see. Why fix what is cheaper and demonstrably not broken?


To the other end of things.
Solder is a surface coating of liquified metals. These metals form a mechanical bond by flowing into the surface imperfections, and creating a connection. As the surface is being heated, and silicon isn't a great conductor, the components don't fry if soldered. This is different when heat is applied for a long time, and the internal components have enough energy transfer to fry.

This is the problem, and why soldering is costly. If you solder too long the chip fries, if you don't solder long enough the connection isn't made and thermal performance is poor.



Intel started using thermal paste because it's cheaper by an order of magnitude. Assuming that you can get the IHS to slightly deform under the pressure applied by the heatsink, you wind up with an interface that very closely matches that of the die. Why we're running into issues is that the dies and IHS are separated by too much distance. This is likely due to regular variability in production of the dies, and IHS plates. I'm just conjecturing here, but the push for lower prices generally leads to larger variation in quality. Intel is likely pushing for those sweet profit margins, given the fact that AMD has actually made demonstrable market progress (whether you appreciate Ryzen or not). Intel is always going to seek profit, and if they can cut a large cost while not negatively impacting their largest consumer base (namely business, not enthusiasts) it's a no-brainer.



If it isn't clear, I voted other. Intel needs to better control their IHS production, or their IHS to die bonding process. The TIM being replaced is interesting, but most people are forgetting that the very small amount of spacing from the adhesive (IHS to die) is being removed. That doesn't sound like a lot, but radiation<convection<conduction. I think that if Intel managed a closer bond, with their current paste, we'd see better performance. Not solder performance, but good enough that delidding wouldn't be a thing (the risk to reward would be too low).
 
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So this is for real? First I have heard of it drying out. Or of TIM being a problem anyway just because it has dried.
From time to time, posts pop up about a 3770K or 4790K CPU no longer behaving thermally. A delid solves the issue.
 
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From time to time, posts pop up about a 3770K or 4790K CPU no longer behaving thermally. A delid solves the issue.

I feel this is a pretty rare occurance though, especially given the quantity sold and the lack of data you presented.
 
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Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
I feel this is a pretty rare occurance though, especially given the quantity sold and the lack of data you presented.
Exactly. No different than solder where it was 'broken' id imagine (but guessing..i know ive seen it before, lol).
 
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Exactly. No different than solder where it was 'broken' id imagine (but guessing..i know ive seen it before, lol).

I had a core 2 quad that would get pretty close to TJunction at idle. Pretty sure that was a bad solder case.
 
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I feel this is a pretty rare occurance though, especially given the quantity sold and the lack of data you presented.
Yes, few will actually post and attempt the delid. Your average reader will just accept the obsolescence and move on without making a fuss and we never hear about it.
 
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Benchmark Scores Faster than yours... I'd bet on it. :)
Again, it does it with solder too...in fact that is one of its biggest drawbacks microcracking, etc. I think the article said as much?

Conclusion
Whenever I read sentences like “What a ripoff – Intel doesn’t even solder a 300 USD CPU” or “Why does intel save 2 USD on soldering” I’m thinking



Stop hating on Intel. Intel has some of the best engineers in the world when it comes to metallurgy. They know exactly what they are doing and the reason for conventional thermal paste in recent desktop CPUs is not as simple as it seems.

Micro cracks in solder preforms can damage the CPU permanently after a certain amount of thermal cycles and time. Conventional thermal paste doesn’t perform as good as the solder preform but it should have a longer durability – especially for small size DIE CPUs.

Thinking about the ecology it makes sense to use conventional thermal paste. Gold and indium are rare and expensive materials. Mining of these materials is complex and in addition it’s polluting.

After soldering one of my 6700K CPUs I can tell it’s a pretty complex process. I’m still working on it and trying to make it available for extreme overclockers. However, I doubt that Intel will come back with soldered “small DIE CPUs”. Skylake works great even with normal thermal paste so I see no reason why Intel should/would change anything here.
 
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So this is for real? First I have heard of it drying out. Or of TIM being a problem anyway just because it has dried.

It really depends on how much the CPU has been used. All TIM has a limited thermal lifecycle. Under heavy use it's about 3 years. Solder lasts at least 10 under heavy use. There's also a chance that the TIM can dry up and loose contact area or create bubbles in between. After their thermal lifecycle performance is reduced as well as possible issues mentioned previously.

I feel this is a pretty rare occurrence though, especially given the quantity sold and the lack of data you presented.

Yes, it is rare. But it is less rare than solder issues. Out of all the CPUs I've used or tested, I've had zero that had issues with solder. You also have to remember that Intel didn't start using TIM until the 3000 series and even then I can tell you I've seen FAR more posts concerning thermal issues regarding TIM CPUs than solder. You are talking about a 1:500 occurrence rate compared to a 1:100000. Maybe they had more issues back in the day with soldering but I havent't seen any issue on anything within the last 10 years.

Just for metrics, I've easily tested over 2,000 CPUs certifying CPUs for resale for business clients. It's a mix of server CPUs and consumer CPUs.
 

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Well 5-1/2 years on my daily driver 3770k. I think it actually has better thermal performance now than when new.
 
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Also, I forgot to point out that Intel used solder for their Clarkdale processors, which has a die size about half that of Coffee Lake or Skylake consumer processors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_i3_microprocessors#"Clarkdale"_(MCP,_32_nm)

If Micro-cracking was not an issue with these small dies, they most certainly would not be an issue for any other Intel processor. Micro-cracking is a bigger issue on smaller dies but you can use different metal layering for different processor lines to offset this issue. If they knew the correct layering for small die CPUs, why not just use that on newer processors?
 
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