TPU's Nostalgic Hardware Club

[HUSKIE]

 

[biffzinker]

The Compact Disc is 40 years old, and for those of us who remember its introduction it still has that sparkle of a high-tech item even as it slides into oblivion at the hands of streaming music services.

https://hackaday.com/2019/03/19/the-cd-is-40-the-cd-is-dead/

 

[Trekkie4]

View attachment 119230

https://hackaday.com/2019/03/19/the-cd-is-40-the-cd-is-dead/

Can't say I feel bad for CDs & DVDs... IMO, they are one of the most unreliable media formats out there. Life span of a home-made CD is less than 10yrs, with DVDs having slight advantage, but are still prone to "disc rot", eventually.

Meanwhile the vinyl, or even those "dreaded" cassettes are making a comeback, a proven & successful formats which are probably going to outlive all of us!

 

[biffzinker]

Can't say I feel bad for CDs & DVDs... IMO, they are one of the most unreliable media formats out there

I thought floppy disks had that hands down for being unreliable?

 

[Trekkie4]

I thought floppy disks had that hands down for being unreliable?

Only if you mishandle them, and/or expose them to magnetic field(s). Most of my personal floppy diskettes work even today, with even some of the data, text files made on our 4x86 DX2 back in 1994, 1995

At the same time, I'd LOVE to see a CD (or DVD for that matter) still running after 25+ years

Edit
Oh yeah, and I forgot to add... Even if you somehow manage to preserve a working 25yr old CD (especially if it's a data disc), it is still going to shatter inside your CD/DVD drive eventually, it is only a matter of time. Even the Mythbusters addressed this "myth", when people said their CD drives suddenly blew up & that CD fragments flew all over the place. This actually happened to me once before, and let me tell you, it is most definitely NOT a myth. It only takes a small crack, or plenty of micro fractures (invisible to the naked eye), and the gravitational forces inside your drive will tear it apart as if it was made out of paper!

So, let me rephrase this... To preserve a functional CD/DVD, you would need to (chemically?) stop/prevent the metal surface from rotting, and you would have to use all your disks with much older units, incapable of reading/writing at high speeds.

 

[biffzinker]

At the same time, I'd LOVE to see a CD (or DVD for that matter) still running after 25+ years

Wonder if any of my older game installation CD-ROMs have expired from old age? There stored in the dark away from exposure to the sun, the only thing that changes is the room temperature.

 

[Trekkie4]

Wonder if any of my older game installation CD-ROMs have expired from old age? There stored in the dark away from exposure to the sun, the only thing that changes is the room temperature.

Are they original, from the factory or home made, written by a CD-RW unit? It all comes down to manufacturing process, and how CDs are made, vs the home-made copies which are "burned" by a laser beam.

And sorry to disappoint you, but the sunlight doesn't have anything to do with disc rot... Look it up (as I'm not quite sure, myself), but it's something to do with chemical reaction over time. The metal foil, data "surface" basically rots over time to the point where it changes chemical properties or something. As a result, the CD is no longer usable, it will simply won't detect any CD/DVD inside the drive.

 

[biffzinker]

Are they original, from the factory or home made, written by a CD-RW unit?

Original from the publisher, I think I only had one CD-R with patches for one of the games. I didn't think sunlight had anything to do with it but you did remind of the chemical reaction that leads to the rot.

Sorry for leaving so soon when I had a short chance to chat but I've got some stuff to take care of before heading to work.

 

[Trekkie4]

Original from the publisher, I think I only had one CD-R with patches for one of the games. I didn't think sunlight had anything to do with it but you did remind of the chemical reaction that leads to the rot.

Sorry for leaving so soon when I had a short chance to chat but I've got some stuff to take care of before heading to work.

Nah, it's all good. We are just talking, there's no rush

As for the CD(s), the original ones SHOULD be OK for a while longer. Really can't tell for how long but to be honest, I would never trust optical disc to hold (and preserve) valuable or irreplaceable information over the long period of time.


I have a huge collection of retro games, programs & even music, stored on home-made CDs, but with that being said, I had to pay the price for dealing with disc rot by renewing, copying my entire collection at least couple of times by now. Currently I'm using Verbatim discs for both CD & DVD media formats, but I also have digital ISO, BIN & MDF formats stored on my external hard drive ... just in case I've learned my lesson the hard way, when I lost quite a lot of programs, back in 2008, 2009. I remember trying several encyclopedias & games on my Pentium 4 machine & only 2/3 of them were working correct. In fact, quite a lot of CDs already experienced read errors, so I caught the problem just in time. The solution was copying the entire collection to fresh discs, and downloading all the missing games/apps online through various sources & databases. At least I was lucky enough that it wasn't personal information, as in something irreplaceable.

 

[biffzinker]

This actually happened to me once before, and let me tell you, it is most definitely NOT a myth. It only takes a small crack, or plenty of micro fractures (invisible to the naked eye), and the gravitational forces inside your drive will tear it apart as if it was made out of paper!

Got a good scare the one time it happened to me, and the drive didn't survive even after cleaning out the busted fragments.

"dreaded" cassettes are making a comeback

Speaking of cassettes, did you know about the competitor to compact cassette? I didn't

 

[lexluthermiester]

I didn't think sunlight had anything to do with it but you did remind of the chemical reaction that leads to the rot.

As long as the chemistry is right and the quality is good, sunlight should not effect a CDR/DVDR/BDR. I have CDR's recorded in the 90's that still work perfectly.

Speaking of cassettes, did you know about the competitor to compact cassette? I didn't

Ah, Techmoan. Such a cool channel. I too had no idea Cassettes had competition either, or at least not beyond 8-track/vinyl.

 

[phill]

I still get dupes all the time.
About the only thing I have ever actually inventoried are socket A processors. I have at least one of all ever released, and a couple the were never released to the public. None of it is insured.

You must sort that out mate Just in case...
I'm wishing to find a boxed Abit NF7-S Rev 2 board.. I loved all of the ones I had..

 

[Bones]

Only if you mishandle them, and/or expose them to magnetic field(s). Most of my personal floppy diskettes work even today, with even some of the data, text files made on our 4x86 DX2 back in 1994, 1995

At the same time, I'd LOVE to see a CD (or DVD for that matter) still running after 25+ years

Edit
Oh yeah, and I forgot to add... Even if you somehow manage to preserve a working 25yr old CD (especially if it's a data disc), it is still going to shatter inside your CD/DVD drive eventually, it is only a matter of time. Even the Mythbusters addressed this "myth", when people said their CD drives suddenly blew up & that CD fragments flew all over the place. This actually happened to me once before, and let me tell you, it is most definitely NOT a myth. It only takes a small crack, or plenty of micro fractures (invisible to the naked eye), and the gravitational forces inside your drive will tear it apart as if it was made out of paper!

So, let me rephrase this... To preserve a functional CD/DVD, you would need to (chemically?) stop/prevent the metal surface from rotting, and you would have to use all your disks with much older units, incapable of reading/writing at high speeds.

To an extent I have to disagree with how reliable floppys are.
I've got an entire box of them (100+ disks) and maybe 10% of them are still good and know this after going through the entire box to see. Most of them I can't format or do anything else with them, I will say however the floppy drive itself is also subject to failure, that being a factor too. If the drive goes bad then all the disks in the world are of no use.
What's funny about it is the newest drives I have by date are the ones that went bad from just sitting, the older ones still work and if the disk isn't bad will read those and such just fine.

I do agree that CD and DVD's you can buy are subject to the rot you speak of, chemical decomposition of the plastic they are made of and the data area/label are delicate too but actual movie/music disks are different in how "Durable" they are in terms of scratch resistance and overall rot.
The ones you use the make a movie or music disk are subject to get scratched in a hurry even if you make efforts to take care of them, the commercially made movie and music CD's are indeed superior in comparison.

 

[Trekkie4]

Got a good scare the one time it happened to me, and the drive didn't survive even after cleaning out the busted fragments.


Speaking of cassettes, did you know about the competitor to compact cassette? I didn't

Nope, I had no idea... Or rather - yes, I was aware of /other/ formats (which I also saw & found about in Techmoan's earlier videos), other than compact cassette, just like there was at least 2 other major competitors to VHS, but I never heard about this particular format, featured in the video. And yes, I'm subscribed to Techmoan Same thing with VWestlife, and I occasionally watch LGR, Phil's Computer Lab, and/or 8-Bit Guy

As long as the chemistry is right and the quality is good, sunlight should not effect a CDR/DVDR/BDR. I have CDR's recorded in the 90's that still work perfectly.


Ah, Techmoan. Such a cool channel. I too had no idea Cassettes had competition either, or at least not beyond 8-track/vinyl.

I used to have Traxdata Gold CD(s), which never had any read errors, despite being used hundreds of times, and obviously very old. One of their earliest editions I believe, which had a small black insert between the golden & blue labels. Anyhow, now I digress - one day I put the damn thing into my DVD-RW drive, which spun it up ... and it blew to zillion pieces! Exactly what (and how) @biffzinker described, it scared the crap out of me! Not only that, but it literally blew, ejected the CD tray half-way out, and pieces of shattered CD scattered around my computer case. By the time that happened, most of the energy already dissipated on the tray, and internals of the drive, so there wasn't enough mass (or speed) to injure my foot, or cause any injuries. But the actual drive was a total mess, a terminal damage. Lesson learned, always dispose the older discs and/or replace them at the first sign of trouble

@Bones Although I do agree with you to a certain point, I'm curious why replacing the (floppy) drive would be an issue? I mean, you can get these things for nothing, there's literally hundreds, thousands of them to choose from...?

 

[lexluthermiester]

I've got an entire box of them (100+ disks) and maybe 10% of them are still good and know this after going through the entire box to see. Most of them I can't format or do anything else with them, I will say however the floppy drive itself is also subject to failure, that being a factor too. If the drive goes bad then all the disks in the world are of no use.
What's funny about it is the newest drives I have by date are the ones that went bad from just sitting, the older ones still work and if the disk isn't bad will read those and such just fine.

I've just never had those problems. I have a few floppy drives and a bunch of discs. They work perfectly, no issues.

 

[Trekkie4]

I've just never had those problems. I have a few floppy drives and a bunch of discs. They work perfectly, no issues.

I got similar experience, myself. Most of my disks from back in a day (most, but not ALL) are still running OK, and they still hold DOS games, highscore results, even Word documents & similar.

On the other hand, most of the other disks which I received from friends & through donations are no longer working. In fact, some of them DID work, until I put them inside floppy drive(s), which then caused surface damage & permanently destroyed them. That was the case with several 5.25 disks, but eventually I took the unit apart, cleaned the heads & re-assembled it, so now it works OK & doesn't cause any damage to disks inside it

Edit
Here, I even found the old pics...

 

[lexluthermiester]

That was the case with several 5.25 disks, but eventually I took the unit apart, cleaned the heads & re-assembled it, so now it works OK & doesn't cause any damage to disks inside it

There's the key, gotta keep the drives clean. The disc's really should last for a few centuries if properly cared for.

 

[Trekkie4]

There's the key, gotta keep the drives clean. The disc's really should last for a few centuries if properly cared for.

Yup, agreed. Unfortunately, I was in the rush to finish the project(s), so I didn't want to take the entire thing apart for no reason. Still, in the end I had to... *shrug* See my original post, above Apart from cleaning the heads, I also managed to fix an issue with write protection sensor, which was apparently clogged with dust & kept recognizing every single disk as write-protected, regardless of the notch, label.

 

[Bones]

@Bones Although I do agree with you to a certain point, I'm curious why replacing the (floppy) drive would be an issue? I mean, you can get these things for nothing, there's literally hundreds, thousands of them to choose from...?

Never said replacing them would be a real issue and you are right, they can be found easily enough at this time.
All I'm saying is if you don't have a working drive the disks themselves are useless, defective or not.

 

[Trekkie4]

Never said replacing them would be a real issue and you are right, they can be found easily enough at this time.
All I'm saying is if you don't have a working drive the disks themselves are useless, defective or not.

Ah, OK... Sorry, I misunderstood you. It's a good thing I got 30+ units laying around, and god knows how much more among the spares... Better safe than sorry

And speaking of floppies, we can debate all day & night whenever CD/DVD technology is better/more reliable than FDD, but when it comes to "coolness" factor let me ask you one thing - can your optical drive play "Video Killed the Radio Star"?

 

[lexluthermiester]

And speaking of floppies, we can debate all day & night whenever CD/DVD technology is better/more reliable than FDD, but when it comes to "coolness" factor let me ask you one thing - can your optical drive play "Video Killed the Radio Star"?

Gotta add this one!

And we can't do those without this one!

 

[Trekkie4]

Speaking of Floppotron ... two of my other favorites

Fun fact, I went out shopping for vinyl earlier today, and asked them if they have Europe, "The Final Countdown" or Scarface OST. Unfortunately, they didn't have either

 

[biffzinker]

You must sort that out mate Just in case...
I'm wishing to find a boxed Abit NF7-S Rev 2 board.. I loved all of the ones I had..

I see what you did, trying to get @Mr.Scott to send one of his duplicate NF7-S boards.

 

[Bones]

I see what you did, trying to get @Mr.Scott to send one of his duplicate NF7-S boards.

He had to try you know.......

 

[Trekkie4]

I see what you did, trying to get @Mr.Scott to send one of his duplicate NF7-S boards.

He had to try you know.......

"Curses! You've seen through my web of deceit!"