Valve Steam Deck SoC Detailed: AMD Brings Zen2 and RDNA2 to the Table

[Nordic]

Availability to play offline or only WiFi connection?

Anything you could do on a Linux system you could do on this. It can play games offline. You can even install windows if you really want.

Holy crap this thing is running Arch for SteamOS. Amazing. Linux is amazing.

The OS is honestly the most impressive thing about this by far.

 

[R0H1T]

The OS is honestly the most impressive thing about this by far.

Why? I think the hardware itself is something extraordinary, it's essentially a high end tablet (TDP) with low end laptop specs?

 

[persondb]

In such a small form factor, I am not sure if you have a lot of leg room to push for more powerful hardware to be honest. I feel RDNA2 is more power efficient, but it still runs very hot because of the high clockspeed. The Sapphire RX 6800 XT Nitro+ while pulling around 300W can hit 94 degs Celsius for its junction temp in a heavy RT workload.

I believe you misunderstood me, I wasn't comparing it to discrete graphics cards but really to others APUs, plus AMD claim of higher frequencies @ same power is supposed to be true at any power envelope really.
The right comparison is say vs Renoir and Lucienne U series SKUs, with those having Vega Graphics at up to 1750 MHz and 1900 MHz respectively, same 8 CUs and same TDP. Obviously, those are up to but they can actually sustain some pretty high clocks, well despite say 4800U having more cores and thus requiring more power to those.

So I do think that there's something weird vs other mobile SKUs, possibly way lower binning or they tweaked Van Gogh to remove some stuff and etc to make it smaller and cheaper? Who knows.

In any case, the article mentioned that this will eat Nintendo Switch for lunch. From a hardware perspective, that is certainly so. But I would like to see if they can even sell anywhere as close to Nintendo Switch's sales number. This is not even an apple to apple comparison because the target market for Nintendo is certainly not the same as people who may buy this or a console like PS or Xbox.

I mean, it will certainly run circles around the Nintendo Switch, potentially even being able to emulate it, though that isn't any technical achievement since Switch uses pretty old hardware, when it released at 2017, it's SoC was already 2 years old and even when it was released in 2015 was kinda of meh.

But anyhow this isn't a console, this is a notebook in the shape of a handheld and with more console-like pricing. The actual competition for this isn't Switch but notebooks like this. In the end, it has all the advantages and disadvantages of a PC, so probably really a different kind of beast to something like the Switch.

 

[Nordic]

Why? I think the hardware itself is something extraordinary, it's essentially a high end tablet (TDP) with low end laptop specs?

The hardware is cool. In fact, it is really cool. It is not unique. It is a better implementation of a design others have been making.

Valve through SteamOS is developing the infrastructure necessary for gaming on Linux to become mainstream. Will this be enough to make Linux mainstream? Probably not. It will improve the gaming experience of everyone who games on. Linux though. The software is impressive because it will affect so much more.

 

[R0H1T]

Oh, so you're talking Proton? Well that is indeed something to pay attention to, I wonder if we get someone to do something similar (with Wine?) for regular applications on Linux ~ that would be a real game changer! I haven't followed Steam OS, so proton controlled/funded by Valve?

 

[persondb]

Why? I think the hardware itself is something extraordinary, it's essentially a high end tablet (TDP) with low end laptop specs?

It's not really something extraordinary, compare it to Renoir and Lucienne, that is their U series SKUs, they share the same Zen 2 cores, have up to 8 cores and up to 8 Vegas CUs(at up to higher frequencies).
Per example the 5700U(Lucienne) has 8 cores, 4.3 GHz turbo, Vega 8 w/ turbo of 1.9 GHz and yeah, same TDP.

And Cezanne APUs are even better really.
Plus Rembrandt that will release next year, likely at CES in January, will be very similar to this APU(as in support LPDDR5, RDNA 2 iGPU) but will be even better.

So it is impressive, just not extraordinary.

 

[R0H1T]

The implementation or the (underlying) design itself? We now have 3(?) zen2 based APU's with GDDR6, DDR4 & now LPDDR5 support. RDNA2 & Vega based graphics, in terms of versatility & overall performance there's really very few (designs) which come close. Now we could argue that AMD does custom SoC better than most of their competitors i.e. Intel & Nvidia, but the fact remains that AMD could make it work & that nothing from the competition would likely come close even today.

As for AMD's own products I think it's obvious that the new(er) designs would be better. Though you can't ignore the solid foundation & experience these zen2 based APUs gave them.

 

[Tom Yum]

It's not really something extraordinary, compare it to Renoir and Lucienne, that is their U series SKUs, they share the same Zen 2 cores, have up to 8 cores and up to 8 Vegas CUs(at up to higher frequencies).
Per example the 5700U(Lucienne) has 8 cores, 4.3 GHz turbo, Vega 8 w/ turbo of 1.9 GHz and yeah, same TDP.

And Cezanne APUs are even better really.
Plus Rembrandt that will release next year, likely at CES in January, will be very similar to this APU(as in support LPDDR5, RDNA 2 iGPU) but will be even better.

So it is impressive, just not extraordinary.

Comparing it to Renoir misses the fact the SoC goes down to 4W. Renoir just can't do that (I've tried, below 12W it turns into a potato, and it doesn't go below 8W). The uncore of Renoir consumes too much power to allow the SoC to go down that far. It is likely that Van Gogh, whilst it can boost up to 15W, is more comfortable in that 4-9W range, and it is likely this is where this handheld runs when not docked to save battery.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

If even half the number of people who regularly use steam buy this, they will do ok.

 

[medi01]

Here they mention that it can run "both SteamOS and Windows games".

How the heck could Linux based SteamOS run windows games?

 

[persondb]

Seems like that the memory controller is only 64b, so well, it will have less memory bandwidth than most APUs, only really 44 GB/s.

Comparing it to Renoir misses the fact the SoC goes down to 4W. Renoir just can't do that (I've tried, below 12W it turns into a potato, and it doesn't go below 8W). The uncore of Renoir consumes too much power to allow the SoC to go down that far. It is likely that Van Gogh, whilst it can boost up to 15W, is more comfortable in that 4-9W range, and it is likely this is where this handheld runs when not docked to save battery.

While that's true, remember that this is being marketed as being able to play full AAA games, which will likely use all 15W and has yourself said, likely not designed for that range, so in general it will be sort of disappointing in peak performance.

 

[R0H1T]

How the heck could Linux based SteamOS run windows games?

Come on now, that's old news ~

GitHub - ValveSoftware/Proton: Compatibility tool for Steam Play based on Wine and additional components

Compatibility tool for Steam Play based on Wine and additional components - ValveSoftware/Proton

github.com

 

[zvmurai]

Does anybody know for sure if this thing will have TPM 2.0 support?
I know it's mandated for Windows OEM's, but have AMD taken up the task of integrating this into the microcode/chipset, or is this down to the system integrator?

Here they mention that it can run "both SteamOS and Windows games".

How the heck could Linux based SteamOS run windows games?

There's a compatibilty layer called Proton which allows you to run Windows games on linux. It's actually pretty good for a lot of games

Edit: Here's a database of supported games

Edit 2: This is my first time commenting here... is there any way to stop replies and posts from bunching up into one? Am very confused.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

Does anybody know for sure if this thing will have TPM 2.0 support?
I know it's mandated for Windows OEM's, but have AMD taken up the task of integrating this into the microcode/chipset, or is this down to the system integrator?


There's a compatibilty layer called Proton which allows you to run Windows games on linux. It's actually pretty good for a lot of games

Edit: Here's a database of supported games

Edit 2: This is my first time commenting here... is there any way to stop replies and posts from bunching up into one? Am very confused.

It is to stop double posts, which are frowned upon.

 

[Tom Yum]

I mean, it will certainly run circles around the Nintendo Switch, potentially even being able to emulate it, though that isn't any technical achievement since Switch uses pretty old hardware, when it released at 2017, it's SoC was already 2 years old and even when it was released in 2015 was kinda of meh.

But anyhow this isn't a console, this is a notebook in the shape of a handheld and with more console-like pricing. The actual competition for this isn't Switch but notebooks like this. In the end, it has all the advantages and disadvantages of a PC, so probably really a different kind of beast to something like the Switch.

The Switch has half the processing power of a Samsung Galaxy S6 so I believe a potato can emulate it at this stage, especially with the latest Yuzu updates.

Seems like that the memory controller is only 64b, so well, it will have less memory bandwidth than most APUs, only really 44 GB/s.

While that's true, remember that this is being marketed as being able to play full AAA games, which will likely use all 15W and has yourself said, likely not designed for that range, so in general it will be sort of disappointing in peak performance.

Look it could be, we just need to wait for benches. Regarding memory width, where are you getting 64 bit from? It wouldn't make any sense for Valve to fit 16GB but keep it single channel. All we know from the specs that Valve provided is that the LDDR5 runs at 5500MT/s, or around 70% faster than DDRr-3200. So unless you can confirm it is running single channel, it should have considerable more bandwidth than the current APU's. My experience with my 4650G is that even it with 7CU Vega is massively bandwidth constrained, so I'd expect it to outperform current APU's even at the lower clockspeeds (especially given RDNA2 has a higher IPC than Vega). We'll obviously see once it releases and benches come out, but I strongly suspect it will use some sort of SmartShift tech to dynamically scale TDP to maintain 60fps (and no more, makes no sense to waste power to drive a higher fps than the screen can support). Assuming the rest of the system uses~5W (screen, speakers, SSD, etc), the only way it can go beyond ~2 hr run time is if the SoC can run under 15W for the majority of the time. Maybe running Cyberpunk will push it to 15W, but you would need to compare it to how Cazenne or Lucienne run Cyberpunk currently (ie. not well) to see if Van Gogh is showing genuine power efficiency improvements. Van Gogh could well be more GPU focussed from a power sharing perspective, so we need to wait until benches come out before comparing to current APUs.

 

[Tartaros]

Anything you could do on a Linux system you could do on this. It can play games offline. You can even install windows if you really want.

The OS is honestly the most impressive thing about this by far.

The interesting thing will be how much Valve will let the OS be friendly enough to add whatever you want. I would prefer to keep the original OS and add emulators and other stores while being able to use the Steam frontend too.

I'm really excited for this, I've been dreaming for a proper and cheaper portable PC console for years.

 

[Nordic]

so in general it will be sort of disappointing in peak performance.

Seriously? Be realistic with your performance expectations. You aren't going to get a whole lot more performance in this small of a size, especially not at this cost. Valve is more than likely selling these at cost intended to make money from game sales.

The interesting thing will be how much Valve will let the OS be friendly enough to add whatever you want. I would prefer to keep the original OS and add emulators and other stores while being able to use the Steam frontend too.

I'm really excited for this, I've been dreaming for a proper and cheaper portable PC console for years.

It is a fully open source and customizable Linux system. You can put your own OS, run different store fronts, and run any software that you could run on Linux. Epic could even port SteamOS and make a carbon copy that loads up the epic store by default, and you could install that.

 

[persondb]

The Switch has half the processing power of a Samsung Galaxy S6 so I believe a potato can emulate it at this stage, especially with the latest Yuzu updates.

Not really relevant

Look it could be, we just need to wait for benches. Regarding memory width, where are you getting 64 bit from?

From Moore Law is Dead leaks on Van Gogh some months ago, he was right about everything else so...

It wouldn't make any sense for Valve to fit 16GB but keep it single channel.

Quad-channel.
Each of those channel is 16b in size compared to LPDDR4 2x16b(32b) or DDR4 64b. You can see it from this anandtech article and and snapdragon 865 specs.

All we know from the specs that Valve provided is that the LDDR5 runs at 5500MT/s, or around 70% faster than DDRr-3200. So unless you can confirm it is running single channel, it should have considerable more bandwidth than the current APU's.

I mean, obviously we don't know till Valve announces it or we have it on our hand, but it makes sense considering that Van Gogh was originally intended to be for premium tablets.

Seriously? Be realistic with your performance expectations. You aren't going to get a whole lot more performance in this small of a size, especially not at this cost. Valve is more than likely selling these at cost intended to make money from game sales.

I was speaking about the CPU side, which certainly can be done better, possibly even at this cost, considering that again, from what we know the CPU side is basically a slightly downclocked 5300U(-200 MHz to -300 MHz).
Well, at $399, it's certainly very very good and more than enough performance. I just think about the higher models, which is where the performance per dollar falls off sharply.

 

[Franzen4Real]

Does the version with 64gb internal, still have a internal m2 slot i wonder?

Steam Deck

Available now.

www.steamdeck.com

64GB version is eMMC
256GB and 512GB is nvme
However, even the nvme drives are not upgradable

IGN: Is the storage upgradable?
Lawrence Yang: The internal storage is not, but every deck will come with a SD card slot. So you can put an SD card slot, whatever size you want. Whenever you want.

Why make HL3 which sells 150 million copies, when you can make an overpriced handheld and sell 1 million units.

plot twist-- HL3 will be a launch day exclusive for Steam Deck in order to drive 150mil unit sales.

Personally I think it looks awesome. Not sure if I will own one, but it's very cool none the less.

 

[Deleted member 24505]

HL3 will be a launch day exclusive

 

[Space Lynx]

i went to go reserve a steam deck on my 12 year old steam account, and got this message "Your account is too new to reserve early. Reservations will open for you on Sunday July 18th, 10am PDT"

lol. mmk gabe. take care. don't let the door hit you on way out, I'll be taking my money elsewhere.

 

[windwhirl]

i went to go reserve a steam deck on my 12 year old steam account, and got this message "Your account is too new to reserve early. Reservations will open for you on Sunday July 18th, 10am PDT"

lol. mmk gabe. take care. don't let the door hit you on way out, I'll be taking my money elsewhere.

Maybe because of this?:

Are there any restrictions on users that can reserve the Steam Deck?
Your Steam account must be in a valid country. Additionally for the first 48 hours of reservation availability your account must be in good standing, and have made a purchase on Steam prior to June 2021.

Though most of it doesn't make sense in your case, if your account is as old as you say you're likely to have bought more than a few titles along the way.

Then again, "good" standing? What does that mean?

Also, other interesting bits:

Do I need a Steam account to use Steam Deck?
The default Steam Deck experience requires a Steam account (it's free!). Games are purchased and downloaded using the Steam Store. That said, Steam Deck is a PC so you can install third party software and operating systems.
Is the reservation queue regional?
Yes, the reservation queue and expected order availability times are specific to each region.
Can I change which Steam Deck I purchase once I'm able to order?
Once you're able to order, you can only purchase the Steam Deck model that you reserved.
When will I be charged in full for Steam Deck?
Once your reserved Steam Deck is available and you complete your purchase, you will be charged.
Does the reservation fee count towards my Steam Deck purchase price?
Yes.

 

[Space Lynx]

yeah mine is in good standing, never had an issue. yeah i buy game prob at least once every 6 months. my account is USA and always has been

its just a boggled rollout as usual for halfassed steam products, my steam controller and steam link been collecting dust since i got them.

so yeah. kind of glad it worked out this way. take care gaben

 

[Tom Yum]

Not really relevant

From Moore Law is Dead leaks on Van Gogh some months ago, he was right about everything else so...

Quad-channel.
Each of those channel is 16b in size compared to LPDDR4 2x16b(32b) or DDR4 64b. You can see it from this anandtech article and and snapdragon 865 specs.

I mean, obviously we don't know till Valve announces it or we have it on our hand, but it makes sense considering that Van Gogh was originally intended to be for premium tablets.

LDDR4/5 can be configured for 16 bit or 32 bit memory channel width. 4 channel of 32 bit would give around 88GB/s bandwidth. 16GB, 128bit wide could be achieved by with 4 of these chips: Micron 32b wide, 32Gb LDDR5 module. What makes me reasonably confident that Van Gogh supports 4x 32 bit is the fact it has 8CU on a die they have obviously designed to minimise power consumption. If the max memory width was 64b, 8CU wouldn't make any sense (it would be too bandwidth-starved to be utilised). That they didn't cut Van Gogh down to 4 - 6 CU (which would have reduced power draw further and is something they did for Banded Kestrel) makes me think AMD believes the memory architecture can keep 8CU's fed.

 

[persondb]

LDDR4/5 can be configured for 16 bit or 32 bit memory channel width. 4 channel of 32 bit would give around 88GB/s bandwidth. 16GB, 128bit wide could be achieved by with 4 of these chips: Micron 32b wide, 32Gb LDDR5 module. What makes me reasonably confident that Van Gogh supports 4x 32 bit is the fact it has 8CU on a die they have obviously designed to minimise power consumption. If the max memory width was 64b, 8CU wouldn't make any sense (it would be too bandwidth-starved to be utilised). That they didn't cut Van Gogh down to 4 - 6 CU (which would have reduced power draw further and is something they did for Banded Kestrel) makes me think AMD believes the memory architecture can keep 8CU's fed.

Uuuuh, it's a multi-channel package see this LPDDR5 workshop you will see it that they refer it as only having 16b channel width, it's in the last pages.
You can also see it in the description of JEDEC specification the width, though it's not available to the public.

The purpose of this specification is to define the minimum set of requirements for a JEDEC compliant x16 one channel SDRAM device and x8 one channel SDRAM device. LPDDR5 device density ranges from 2 Gb through 32 Gb.

So assuming that the leaks about it being quad channel are correct(and seeing how everything else was, I don't see why this would be the exception) it would be a 64b memory bus.