Vendor Greed? Or did I smoke one too many?

[OneMoar]

@daz

If the return policy wasn't clear, then I'd side with the customer in this case. However, looking at the site, the restocking fee is made very clear and unambiguous, in bolded text. Take it as a lesson to check the return policy before purchasing anything you might need to return if something happens. The store does have a lame return policy, but if the customer still decides to purchase, then...

View attachment 318994

yea that policy is pretty sus
15% ? on a 500 thats 75 bucks
fuck you also no returns of open box stuff? so if I get a dead pump what?

folks this is a policy that screams I don't want to deal with returns. and that is a red flag returns are a fact of doing buisness

 

[FoulOnWhite]

My board has both 1200, and 1700 holes.

I would have told them to ferble off, and gone somewhere else.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

So...I don't think many people here understand COPQ. That'd be cost of poor quality.

If you're in the shoes of the vendor you've got a policy outlined. You are accepting the risk of somebody returning a product that damaged it, and you have got to receive the thing in, verify good, restock it, and do the work to make it saleable despite having a relatively niche product where the cost of overhead in storage might eat you alive.


Let me offer you some food for thought. You're a small retailer, and hold about 1000 square feet of storage space. Said 1000 square feet is about 2000 CAD a month...meaning that for every single month you have an item that takes up maybe 1/4 of a square foot it costs you 2000/4000 or about 0.50 per month. Now add in utilities, and other stuff, and you're looing at maybe an overhead of 1.00 per month...just for low impact storage. Let's say you've got a 400 CAD item and are selling it with a 33% profit margin...or that it is $100 worth of profit if you sell it on day one...and you may have an MOQ (minimum order quantity) of 5 of the things. That means you break even after 100 months theoretically....right? Nobody holds inventory that long....unless you order something that's insanely low in demand (water cooling), and of such niche usage that this component may basically be on the shelf forever.
-so we are clear, this is how mom & pop stores occasionally sell new and unopened stuff two decades later-

In order to soak some of that you have policies that favor the vendor, because they may be getting back a product that might otherwise never move. It's a percentage rather than a flat fee because it's product that is so niche. It's also entirely outlined on the website...and being frank the sale of product B with a 400 CAD price "making up" for the restocking fee is preposterous because in such a low volume high cost, high margin business it's suicide to not force the consumer to take responsibility for their errors.



Do I sympathize with the OP...no. You're looking at an expensive hobby, and you screwed up. I also didn't sympathize with myself when my first system used clamps and barbs to secure it, and I discovered that the clamps purchased were too thick to fit over the barbs properly. I admitted I was an idiot, went out and bought the right stuff a second time, and didn't make that mistake again.
Maybe instead of focusing on an extremely expensive water cooling solution that actually will outstrip the money you've paid for the processor itself (409 USD for a 14700k....and you're saying block+pump/res is going beyond that with no fittings and tubing), this is a lesson in how not to spend a lot of money on something that will not reward it. I say this because I had to learn my lesson with a 3930k and custom loop...which taught me that if it can't be air cooled and under a grand then you'll rather rapidly discover the decade long payback period for premium hardware is an idiot's tax...I say while looking at a 5700X running more cores, faster, more efficiently, with better connectivity than the 3930k could ever offer.

 

[Frick]

So...I don't think many people here understand COPQ. That'd be cost of poor quality.

If you're in the shoes of the vendor you've got a policy outlined. You are accepting the risk of somebody returning a product that damaged it, and you have got to receive the thing in, verify good, restock it, and do the work to make it saleable despite having a relatively niche product where the cost of overhead in storage might eat you alive.

I read it as the product was not opened, which changes things IMO. In Sweden there are laws that we can always return stuff, no questions, if the package is not opened, and it's not eating small stores alive.

 

[caroline!]

AIOs suck, custom can be cheap but definitely not when you're getting overpriced EK stuff and going for looks. Guess you already know about functional liquid cooling for packed systems like workstations and miniservers so I won't elaborate on that, anyway, not my wallet.

Returning a product does indeed cost money, well, it costs time, and time equals money. You also get into account the shipping cost in fuel... I sell lighting products, select electrical stuff that's hard to get (and pricey) and some refurb appliances. If anyone orders desk lamp A3, 30 meters of wire, a 50 amp contactor and a bunch of sockets, switches, etc. first thing I do is put everything on the same box, this saves packaging material and simplifies the order... now, I deliver it and if next day client says he messed up and wanted a 100 amp contactor and desk lamp A6 instead, I'll have to make another package, and deliver it, while getting the incorrect stuff back.

That's not free... I don't have any employees so that means that particular return order takes up time I could use to deliver other stuff, which means I lose more money than I earn with that one sale. My business approach differs from what you can know in first world, client orders XYZ, I prepare it, deliver and get cash. I'm not legally allowed to have a bank account in foreign currency (which is what I work with as local is basically worth less than used toilet paper) so I can't use any electronic transfer methods, that means sometime I have to pay for muscle, you know, so I can deliver to dangerous parts of the city, hire someone as a bodyguard to protect me, the transport (a ruined car) and the goods, that also costs money, so.... I'm not being greedy here, running a business isn't easy. Clients are aware delivery to certain zones is more expensive due to, well, crime reasons, and most understand, there's always the cheap guy tho.

 

[OneMoar]

So...I don't think many people here understand COPQ. That'd be cost of poor quality.

If you're in the shoes of the vendor you've got a policy outlined. You are accepting the risk of somebody returning a product that damaged it, and you have got to receive the thing in, verify good, restock it, and do the work to make it saleable despite having a relatively niche product where the cost of overhead in storage might eat you alive.


Let me offer you some food for thought. You're a small retailer, and hold about 1000 square feet of storage space. Said 1000 square feet is about 2000 CAD a month...meaning that for every single month you have an item that takes up maybe 1/4 of a square foot it costs you 2000/4000 or about 0.50 per month. Now add in utilities, and other stuff, and you're looing at maybe an overhead of 1.00 per month...just for low impact storage. Let's say you've got a 400 CAD item and are selling it with a 33% profit margin...or that it is $100 worth of profit if you sell it on day one...and you may have an MOQ (minimum order quantity) of 5 of the things. That means you break even after 100 months theoretically....right? Nobody holds inventory that long....unless you order something that's insanely low in demand (water cooling), and of such niche usage that this component may basically be on the shelf forever.
-so we are clear, this is how mom & pop stores occasionally sell new and unopened stuff two decades later-

In order to soak some of that you have policies that favor the vendor, because they may be getting back a product that might otherwise never move. It's a percentage rather than a flat fee because it's product that is so niche. It's also entirely outlined on the website...and being frank the sale of product B with a 400 CAD price "making up" for the restocking fee is preposterous because in such a low volume high cost, high margin business it's suicide to not force the consumer to take responsibility for their errors.



Do I sympathize with the OP...no. You're looking at an expensive hobby, and you screwed up. I also didn't sympathize with myself when my first system used clamps and barbs to secure it, and I discovered that the clamps purchased were too thick to fit over the barbs properly. I admitted I was an idiot, went out and bought the right stuff a second time, and didn't make that mistake again.
Maybe instead of focusing on an extremely expensive water cooling solution that actually will outstrip the money you've paid for the processor itself (409 USD for a 14700k....and you're saying block+pump/res is going beyond that with no fittings and tubing), this is a lesson in how not to spend a lot of money on something that will not reward it. I say this because I had to learn my lesson with a 3930k and custom loop...which taught me that if it can't be air cooled and under a grand then you'll rather rapidly discover the decade long payback period for premium hardware is an idiot's tax...I say while looking at a 5700X running more cores, faster, more efficiently, with better connectivity than the 3930k could ever offer.

I mean you just explained why being a one man operation doesn't work
you might have a point if he hadn't been in buisness for over a decade. but if you have been running a one man show for a decade and haven't grown to where you can take the hits that come with doing business .. then you really aren't doing good business

I don't think anybody that does a custom water cooling loop cares about performace they do it ... because they can
the reward is there enjoyment of doing it.

I have no horse in this race but I take issue with 'tone' of his email getting snarky with a potental new customer because you haven't figured out how to handle customer service after a decade ... yea ill take my business elseware

 

[Vayra86]

So...I don't think many people here understand COPQ. That'd be cost of poor quality.

If you're in the shoes of the vendor you've got a policy outlined. You are accepting the risk of somebody returning a product that damaged it, and you have got to receive the thing in, verify good, restock it, and do the work to make it saleable despite having a relatively niche product where the cost of overhead in storage might eat you alive.


Let me offer you some food for thought. You're a small retailer, and hold about 1000 square feet of storage space. Said 1000 square feet is about 2000 CAD a month...meaning that for every single month you have an item that takes up maybe 1/4 of a square foot it costs you 2000/4000 or about 0.50 per month. Now add in utilities, and other stuff, and you're looing at maybe an overhead of 1.00 per month...just for low impact storage. Let's say you've got a 400 CAD item and are selling it with a 33% profit margin...or that it is $100 worth of profit if you sell it on day one...and you may have an MOQ (minimum order quantity) of 5 of the things. That means you break even after 100 months theoretically....right? Nobody holds inventory that long....unless you order something that's insanely low in demand (water cooling), and of such niche usage that this component may basically be on the shelf forever.
-so we are clear, this is how mom & pop stores occasionally sell new and unopened stuff two decades later-

In order to soak some of that you have policies that favor the vendor, because they may be getting back a product that might otherwise never move. It's a percentage rather than a flat fee because it's product that is so niche. It's also entirely outlined on the website...and being frank the sale of product B with a 400 CAD price "making up" for the restocking fee is preposterous because in such a low volume high cost, high margin business it's suicide to not force the consumer to take responsibility for their errors.



Do I sympathize with the OP...no. You're looking at an expensive hobby, and you screwed up. I also didn't sympathize with myself when my first system used clamps and barbs to secure it, and I discovered that the clamps purchased were too thick to fit over the barbs properly. I admitted I was an idiot, went out and bought the right stuff a second time, and didn't make that mistake again.
Maybe instead of focusing on an extremely expensive water cooling solution that actually will outstrip the money you've paid for the processor itself (409 USD for a 14700k....and you're saying block+pump/res is going beyond that with no fittings and tubing), this is a lesson in how not to spend a lot of money on something that will not reward it. I say this because I had to learn my lesson with a 3930k and custom loop...which taught me that if it can't be air cooled and under a grand then you'll rather rapidly discover the decade long payback period for premium hardware is an idiot's tax...I say while looking at a 5700X running more cores, faster, more efficiently, with better connectivity than the 3930k could ever offer.

Strong disagree, except for the bottom paragraph.

If you can't offer sensible return policies, you need to not be in business. Its that simple. Your business model doesn't check out at that point, because the simple fact is, customer service is part of peddling wares. A restocking fee in % cost of product? Give me a break.

In the end the only businesses that have any right to exist in a sane world, with a fair social contract, are those that will only make deals all parties are happy with. The only sale is a sale where everyone felt like they were winning. Everything else is extortion, bad business practice, an unhealthy relationship - give it whatever name you like, but it shouldn't exist. The day to day realities of people who started a business knowing the risks are completely irrelevant in relation to this, and never an excuse.

 

[tabascosauz]

@daz

I...don't think that's our guy, lol

Our guy is from eastern Canada (Quebec?). He has a YouTube channel.

https://youtube.com/@DazModeWatercooling?si=nOWoJLDbqr8d8pv3

Most people have held Daz in high regard for more than a decade, so I suspect perhaps OP's son and Daz got off on the wrong foot or a misunderstanding. But who knows, people and businesses change. Especially after covid.

 

[Frick]

I have no horse in this race but I take issue with 'tone' of his email getting snarky with a potental new customer because you haven't figured out how to handle customer service after a decade ... yea ill take my business elseware

It is sorta important to note that we didn't get the mail to the company, only the response. "My son replied that he still needs a pump/rez combo and if the restocking fee could be waved, he would also buy the pump/rez combo from him as well." You could write something like that really nastily, maybe even without realizing it is nasty.

 

[xmanrigger]

So...I don't think many people here understand COPQ. That'd be cost of poor quality.

If you're in the shoes of the vendor you've got a policy outlined. You are accepting the risk of somebody returning a product that damaged it, and you have got to receive the thing in, verify good, restock it, and do the work to make it saleable despite having a relatively niche product where the cost of overhead in storage might eat you alive.


Let me offer you some food for thought. You're a small retailer, and hold about 1000 square feet of storage space. Said 1000 square feet is about 2000 CAD a month...meaning that for every single month you have an item that takes up maybe 1/4 of a square foot it costs you 2000/4000 or about 0.50 per month. Now add in utilities, and other stuff, and you're looing at maybe an overhead of 1.00 per month...just for low impact storage. Let's say you've got a 400 CAD item and are selling it with a 33% profit margin...or that it is $100 worth of profit if you sell it on day one...and you may have an MOQ (minimum order quantity) of 5 of the things. That means you break even after 100 months theoretically....right? Nobody holds inventory that long....unless you order something that's insanely low in demand (water cooling), and of such niche usage that this component may basically be on the shelf forever.
-so we are clear, this is how mom & pop stores occasionally sell new and unopened stuff two decades later-

In order to soak some of that you have policies that favor the vendor, because they may be getting back a product that might otherwise never move. It's a percentage rather than a flat fee because it's product that is so niche. It's also entirely outlined on the website...and being frank the sale of product B with a 400 CAD price "making up" for the restocking fee is preposterous because in such a low volume high cost, high margin business it's suicide to not force the consumer to take responsibility for their errors.



Do I sympathize with the OP...no. You're looking at an expensive hobby, and you screwed up. I also didn't sympathize with myself when my first system used clamps and barbs to secure it, and I discovered that the clamps purchased were too thick to fit over the barbs properly. I admitted I was an idiot, went out and bought the right stuff a second time, and didn't make that mistake again.
Maybe instead of focusing on an extremely expensive water cooling solution that actually will outstrip the money you've paid for the processor itself (409 USD for a 14700k....and you're saying block+pump/res is going beyond that with no fittings and tubing), this is a lesson in how not to spend a lot of money on something that will not reward it. I say this because I had to learn my lesson with a 3930k and custom loop...which taught me that if it can't be air cooled and under a grand then you'll rather rapidly discover the decade long payback period for premium hardware is an idiot's tax...I say while looking at a 5700X running more cores, faster, more efficiently, with better connectivity than the 3930k could ever offer.

"You are accepting the risk of somebody returning a product that damaged it"
The package was factory sealed and unopened and was indicated as so in email.

"Let me offer you some food for thought. You're a small retailer, and hold about 1000 square feet of storage space. ...........bla bla bla bla.........so we are clear, this is how mom & pop stores occasionally sell new and unopened stuff two decades later"
Those Mom and Pop stores still open and selling stuff decades later, obviously got their shit together. In that time, they learned how to treat prospective new long time customers and retain existing customers. Not sure that is the case here.

"I admitted I was an idiot, went out and bought the right stuff a second time, and didn't make that mistake again."
You were only an idiot if you knowingly ordered the wrong clamps. People make mistake. Everyone does. Are they all idiots as well?

"Maybe instead of focusing on an extremely expensive water cooling solution that actually will outstrip the money you've paid for the processor itself...."
You worry about how your money is spent and we will worry about ours.

"I say this because I had to learn my lesson with a 3930k..."
Not sure what lesson you learned with a 3930K. But I can tell you it was a monster in its day. And still relevant today. Not many people running at 5200mhz with quad core memory in 2011. I was smashing benchmarks with it. It could go head to head with the 3960X (look at early Realbench scores). Both were the baddest consumer level CPUs available that era.

 

[xmanrigger]

"You are accepting the risk of somebody returning a product that damaged it"
The package was factory sealed and unopened and was indicated as so in email.

"Let me offer you some food for thought. You're a small retailer, and hold about 1000 square feet of storage space. ...........bla bla bla bla.........so we are clear, this is how mom & pop stores occasionally sell new and unopened stuff two decades later"
Those Mom and Pop stores still open and selling stuff decades later, obviously got their shit together. In that time, they learned how to treat prospective new long time customers and retain existing customers. Not sure that is the case here.

"I admitted I was an idiot, went out and bought the right stuff a second time, and didn't make that mistake again."
You were only an idiot if you knowingly ordered the wrong clamps. People make mistake. Everyone does. Are they all idiots as well?

"Maybe instead of focusing on an extremely expensive water cooling solution that actually will outstrip the money you've paid for the processor itself...."
You worry about how your money is spent and we will worry about ours.

"I say this because I had to learn my lesson with a 3930k..."
Not sure what lesson you learned with a 3930K. But I can tell you it was a monster in its day. And still relevant today. Not many people running at 5200mhz with quad core memory in 2011. I was smashing benchmarks with it. It could go head to head with the 3960X (look at early Realbench scores). Both were the baddest consumer level CPUs available that era.

Sorry, wouldnt let me Edit previous post I just wanted to add this to the 3930K defence. Just a tidbit. I had a few beers and had to throw this in. My 3930K, 32G 2200mhz Mem machine is still live and kicking as a Virtual Machine and gaming rig with an RTX 2070 Super.

AMD had absolutely nothing to offer to compete against the 3930K. AMD was slaughtered. I believe the only reason a chip was designated the 3960X was strickly its IMC capability. Weaker IMCs would have been released as a 3930K. That is what Realbench says.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

I read it as the product was not opened, which changes things IMO. In Sweden there are laws that we can always return stuff, no questions, if the package is not opened, and it's not eating small stores alive.

I'd ask you to consider two things before you continue to respond.

1) This is not Sweden.
2) Everything has an opportunity cost.

Let me explain this simpler then. We know the store has a returns policy outlined...which was available and present prior to ever ordering Cool. That must mean that we are not subject to the laws of Sweden...and if you read through the rest of the post you'd note it's Canada.
Opportunity cost is what you seem to miss. Let's ask what it costs you Swedes to have certain policies...because nothing is free. I say this because if you buy the same thing in Brainerd MN, and across the border in Canada, you have two separate costs even factoring in currency exchange. Why...well, requirements.


Let's say I live in the US...where there's no consistent protection. I go out and buy a $20 bag of candy. Said bag of candy is about 50% store mark-up, above what they paid. That mark-up seems crazy...but when you factor in stocking fees, area upkeep, and all of the other costs you actually pull down 10-20% profits. Yes, a $20 bag of candy might make the store a couple of dollars. Seems weird...but you have losses everywhere that have to be accounted for. Thing is, no company in their right mind absorbs these, they are passed on in the cost of their goods.
Now, you've got a $400 pump...which likewise might only be a $200 cost to the supplier. If companies do a lot of volume, and they have a consistent return percentage, that's built into the cost of your stuff. This is why a company might charge more than another for literally the same thing...because their internal mark-up to pay for services is higher. This is why in Sweden you will pay more for everything...because all of those services are bundled into what you already pay for (that $20 bag of candy is probably closer to $25). Great if you're an average consumer...not so great if you screw up a once in a decade $400 order...and thus why businesses run on different models.


I appreciate that you think it wasn't opened, so it'd be easy to return. Let me suggest that this is idiotic. You have to receive the good back (somebody paid for shipping), inspect to confirm it's actually unopened, pay for somebody to reverse the transaction, pay for the credit transaction if they purchased with a card, and restock the item. All of this is non-value added labor...and it adds up. It's funny how people just assume that it's fine...without ever thinking that the base price of goods eats this overhead...because most people are incapable of decoupling services and prices.
If you want a real example go to your local recovered goods shop. Think Goodwill or the like. Note that they are working on almost no overhead...so a $5 shirt is a steal, but if you try to return it without a receipt you'll be denied. Of course, if instead of returning it you walk out the door, donate it, and claim it as $20 of donated clothing you basically make off with the same net return. It's funny...but nothing is free. Everything has a cost. Just because you cannot see it, doesn't mean you aren't paying for it.

 

[Dragam1337]

So I have been into custom water cooling for over a decade. In that time and as my son grew up, he has seen lots of custom water cooled rigs. And he also learned to appreciate the work and expense that goes into designing and building one.

My son's present PC is Z390-9700K-RTX3070. It is the first PC he has ever built himself. His wife enjoys gaming, so he is passing that PC to her and building himself a new 14700K / RTX4070Ti system. He was having a hard time choosing an AIO, so I convinced him to go custom cooled. With some hesitation, he agreed.

I directed him to an online vendor where he could find the water cooling parts he needed. We both went thru the site and were able to find what we needed, and made a list. There he ordered a CPU block, 360 radiator, and some fittings. I already have lots of tubing. This is only the second PC he has built and his first venture into custom water cooling.

So his order showed up and he noticed he had ordered the wrong CPU water block and forgot to order the pump/reservoir. He contacted the vendor by email, and explained it was his first time water cooling and ordered the wrong block (S1200) and would like to exchange it for the correct water block (S1700). Vendor said he would exchange it but my son would have to pay the shipping expenses (expected) and also pay a re-stocking fee.

My son replied that he still needs a pump/rez combo and if the restocking fee could be waved, he would also buy the pump/rez combo from him as well. He wanted to buy the EK-Quantum Kinetic TBE 200 as well as exchange the EK water block. This is the reply he received back:

"Sorry, but the restocking fee applies to all returns. Somebody worked on your order, and somebody would work on unmaking your order. The restocking key that works so nobody work for free."

When my son showed me the email, it had left a very sour taste. I suggested emailing him back and telling him to go f#4k himself. Tell him you will keep the block, and order from reputable vendor elsewhere. And you will never spend another nickle in his shop.

I think that unacceptable and unfair. He wasnt asking to return it for a refund. He wanted to exchange it and also spend almost an additional $400 for a rez/pump combo.


Now I realize times are tough. But that goes full circle. Everyone is taking a hit. Not just retailers. So I though that was very unacceptable. And certainly not a way to treat a first time customer. What a way to turn someone off from a great hobbie.

So. Am I wrong to take this stance on the matter? Did I smoke one too many and I am off in LaLa Land? What are your opinions? I spend quite a bit on water cooling (lots of it at this particular shop) and I am pretty sure I will avoid this vendor in the future. Pay more out of spite and get my stuff from the States.

EDIT: change 12700K to 14700K

Convincing someone who isn't into custom waterloops to get it is a really really bad idea...

If you are passionate about it, then you probably don't mind fiddling with it - but someone who just wants to game will find a custom waterloop a massive chore... and for no actual benefit.

I would and do advice all casual pc users / builders to not bother with custom loops.

 

[AusWolf]

What's a restocking fee?

If a store came back to me with such bullshit, I'd be furious, too.

 

[lilhasselhoffer]

Strong disagree, except for the bottom paragraph.

If you can't offer sensible return policies, you need to not be in business. Its that simple. Your business model doesn't check out at that point, because the simple fact is, customer service is part of peddling wares. A restocking fee in % cost of product? Give me a break.

In the end the only businesses that have any right to exist in a sane world, with a fair social contract, are those that will only make deals all parties are happy with. The only sale is a sale where everyone felt like they were winning. Everything else is extortion, bad business practice, an unhealthy relationship - give it whatever name you like, but it shouldn't exist. The day to day realities of people who started a business knowing the risks are completely irrelevant in relation to this, and never an excuse.

Stop.

Think.

Imagine that they gave you a "sensible" return policy. That means they built the cost of returns into the price of goods...like other companies do. That would mean that instead of $400 for the pump you might spend $415...which isn't so bad for you. It is bad for the people who order, and discover the nearly 4% mark-up built into the cost of goods to pay for some idiot ordering wrong. You make the false statement that this is special....when the benefit is to uniformly decrease cost for everyone who doesn't require extra services.


Let me Americanize this. Imagine if a standard burger costs $5. Now, that standard is pickles, onions, lettuce, ketchup, and mustard. Now, imagine a custom burger is $7. You actually wind up with pickles, ketchup, and mustard only. Is this fair? Yes. It's requiring non-standard operations to be outlined, and increasing processing costs. Yes, you do get less...but the cost is in labor time not in resources. Most of your argument hinges on the false assumption that the vendor will eat this cost...and vendors that remain open do not eat these costs period. Please, think before you guys talk. This is you claiming that everyone should pay more to cover the cost of non-value added services, instead of the person causing the non-value added service to pay for it.


Alternatively, let me do this in nerd. You are quoted to write a program that does X. During the course of coding, you create said code, but the customer wants it to also do Y. You agreed to X, but Y is a logical extension of the code. By your argument that extra cost should be absorbed by the coder, and that price for an expanded feature set should be in the base quotation...which would make you less competitive. So...so you get it yet? My argument is that if you want more you should pay for it, instead of demanding everyone pays for part of it. None of this even touches on an outlined policy being agreed to, so it's just sour grapes about a stupid moment...but we can ignore that for the simpler answer that people providing a service should be paid. Period.

What's a restocking fee?

If a store came back to me with such bullshit, I'd be furious, too.

It's a fee to deal with your stupidity.

You have to pay for shipping.
You have to pay for receiving.
You have to pay to have the product inspected.
You have to have the product transacted back into the system.
You then have to reshelve and store the product.


If you guys don't get it, you are already paying for this. Go to your local retailers, and price compare mom&pop offerings to retailer chains. Those chain retailers build the price of a percentage of returns into their purchase cost...even if you don't see it you're paying for it. It's amazing that people cannot understand this in 2023...but if I can go to a wholesaler and buy the same thing for 10-20% cheaper than a retailer then something is being paid for...in this case it's overhead the wholesalers don't have on things like returns and specific types of labor.

 

[Frick]

I'd ask you to consider two things before you continue to respond.

1) This is not Sweden.
2) Everything has an opportunity cost.

Let me explain this simpler then. We know the store has a returns policy outlined...which was available and present prior to ever ordering Cool. That must mean that we are not subject to the laws of Sweden...and if you read through the rest of the post you'd note it's Canada.
Opportunity cost is what you seem to miss. Let's ask what it costs you Swedes to have certain policies...because nothing is free. I say this because if you buy the same thing in Brainerd MN, and across the border in Canada, you have two separate costs even factoring in currency exchange. Why...well, requirements.


Let's say I live in the US...where there's no consistent protection. I go out and buy a $20 bag of candy. Said bag of candy is about 50% store mark-up, above what they paid. That mark-up seems crazy...but when you factor in stocking fees, area upkeep, and all of the other costs you actually pull down 10-20% profits. Yes, a $20 bag of candy might make the store a couple of dollars. Seems weird...but you have losses everywhere that have to be accounted for. Thing is, no company in their right mind absorbs these, they are passed on in the cost of their goods.
Now, you've got a $400 pump...which likewise might only be a $200 cost to the supplier. If companies do a lot of volume, and they have a consistent return percentage, that's built into the cost of your stuff. This is why a company might charge more than another for literally the same thing...because their internal mark-up to pay for services is higher. This is why in Sweden you will pay more for everything...because all of those services are bundled into what you already pay for (that $20 bag of candy is probably closer to $25). Great if you're an average consumer...not so great if you screw up a once in a decade $400 order...and thus why businesses run on different models.


I appreciate that you think it wasn't opened, so it'd be easy to return. Let me suggest that this is idiotic. You have to receive the good back (somebody paid for shipping), inspect to confirm it's actually unopened, pay for somebody to reverse the transaction, pay for the credit transaction if they purchased with a card, and restock the item. All of this is non-value added labor...and it adds up. It's funny how people just assume that it's fine...without ever thinking that the base price of goods eats this overhead...because most people are incapable of decoupling services and prices.
If you want a real example go to your local recovered goods shop. Think Goodwill or the like. Note that they are working on almost no overhead...so a $5 shirt is a steal, but if you try to return it without a receipt you'll be denied. Of course, if instead of returning it you walk out the door, donate it, and claim it as $20 of donated clothing you basically make off with the same net return. It's funny...but nothing is free. Everything has a cost. Just because you cannot see it, doesn't mean you aren't paying for it.

Yeah sure it costs them money. That's not the argument. The argument is whether it's sensible or not. I'd say it isn't, depending on various factors. Cost of doing business and all that, and if anything that should be reflected in price of the item. If he's loosing money because he has to accept a return his margins are too low and he has to rethink some stuff. Obviously. "Working for free" is also a bit weird argument here. Should he also increase the prices if he's swamped, or if his inventory is messy and he has to spend time finding the stuff he's selling? "I can't work for free, so that's $15 in Finding The Item fees". Of course not, that'd be silly. If returns is such a massive burden, reflect that in the price and make a big deal of "Free returns (sans shipping) on unopened items!"

I am fine with the fees if they are clearly spelled out though. And we don't know what the customers letter looked like, it could have been bad and the answer from the store would have been appropriate.

 

[Chrispy_]

Restocking fees are no scam. If you send something back, the vendor has to receive it, check whether it's been unsealed, and if it has it can never be sold as "new, unopened" stock, so they're losing ~20 of the resale value right there. It's open-box at best, and you KNOW those don't ever sell at full price. Even if it's unsealed, they kind of have to check that you haven't tampered with the seal and raided the contents making it open-box even if it wasn't when you sent it back.

So, ignoring the loss of value, there was work involved in the original sale - receiving it from the distributor, tagging it for inventory, all of the people/systems/packaging involved in processing and shipping your order the first time. Then, it has to be physically put back into inventory, given a special "open box" listing on the website, and likely manual adjustment for open-box in every single system the company uses in their entire process chain.

If a shop accepts returns without a restocking fee, you know their profit margins are high enough that they can afford to do all that, at a loss. All that means is that you're likely overpaying for everything you buy from them in the first place. As a rule of thumb, if a place has restocking fees, you will usually (not always) find that they have some of the lowest margins and best non-sale prices. If a place has restocking fees and is undercut by most of the competition, then you know they're just greedy scalpers; Take your business elsewhere! The only reason to ever overpay for material goods is because a reseller is offering additional perks/services for your overpayment. This includes, but is not limited to, free returns, free advice, free tech support etc. It's not "free", it's paid for by the higher margins reflected in the higher sales prices.

 

[Tatty_Two]

What's a restocking fee?

If a store came back to me with such bullshit, I'd be furious, too.

It's illegal in the UK I believe.

 

[n-ster]

It's poor customer service and a bit short sighted not to be flexible with your customer business-wise, I think we all agree on that. That said, you're not entitled to his goodwill, at least not legally in BC. You asked nicely, but you're going to be the A-hole if you start attacking him/his business over not accommodating for your mistake. You can't have your cake and eat it to. I get it, it's a frustrating customer experience, and that's why most businesses would rather price the cost of shipping and re-stocking into their advertised prices, and maybe you don't understand how it makes sense business-wise, but the dude gets to decide if he makes an exception for you or not.

If you've had good experiences shopping there before, and value the rest of the experience (like lower prices or expertise or stock of parts that are hard to find), then I'd express disappointment, sure, but chalk it up as a lesson learned. If not, shop elsewhere next time. No need for more drama than that.

 

[AusWolf]

It's a fee to deal with your stupidity.

You have to pay for shipping.
You have to pay for receiving.
You have to pay to have the product inspected.
You have to have the product transacted back into the system.
You then have to reshelve and store the product.


If you guys don't get it, you are already paying for this. Go to your local retailers, and price compare mom&pop offerings to retailer chains. Those chain retailers build the price of a percentage of returns into their purchase cost...even if you don't see it you're paying for it. It's amazing that people cannot understand this in 2023...but if I can go to a wholesaler and buy the same thing for 10-20% cheaper than a retailer then something is being paid for...in this case it's overhead the wholesalers don't have on things like returns and specific types of labor.

Restocking fees are no scam. If you send something back, the vendor has to receive it, check whether it's been unsealed, and if it has it can never be sold as "new, unopened" stock, so they're losing ~20 of the resale value right there. It's open-box at best, and you KNOW those don't ever sell at full price. Even if it's unsealed, they kind of have to check that you haven't tampered with the seal and raided the contents making it open-box even if it wasn't when you sent it back.

So, ignoring the loss of value, there was work involved in the original sale - receiving it from the distributor, tagging it for inventory, all of the people/systems/packaging involved in processing and shipping your order the first time. Then, it has to be physically put back into inventory, given a special "open box" listing on the website, and likely manual adjustment for open-box in every single system the company uses in their entire process chain.

If a shop accepts returns without a restocking fee, you know their profit margins are high enough that they can afford to do all that, at a loss. All that means is that you're likely overpaying for everything you buy from them in the first place. As a rule of thumb, if a place has restocking fees, you will usually (not always) find that they have some of the lowest margins and best non-sale prices. If a place has restocking fees and is undercut by most of the competition, then you know they're just greedy scalpers; Take your business elsewhere! The only reason to ever overpay for material goods is because a reseller is offering additional perks/services for your overpayment. This includes, but is not limited to, free returns, free advice, free tech support etc. It's not "free", it's paid for by the higher margins reflected in the higher sales prices.

What about the 14-day return window? Is that only a European thing?

Also, if the item is intact and damage-free, the store can resell it as "refurbished" or "open box" condition. I see a lot of UK retailers do that close to, or even at regular retail prices.

A lot of stores also offer installation warranties for a couple of quid, that covers incompatibility issues.

 

[Chrispy_]

What about the 14-day return window? Is that only a European thing?

Perhaps, see below.

It's illegal in the UK I believe.

No idea where you got that idea from?!

I can confirm restocking fees are both legal and very common in the UK, though the prevalence of free returns is more common for e-tailers as there are additional consumer rights on purchases unseen, and distance-selling regulations. None of these rights apply if the product has been used, exceptions in the regulations are made for all kinds of reasons like hygiene/privacy/security and invoking your consumer rights does not entitle you to your shipping costs or return costs.

 

[Tatty_Two]

Perhaps, see below.

No idea where you got that idea from?!

I can confirm restocking fees are both legal and very common in the UK, though the prevalence of free returns is more common for e-tailers as there are additional consumer rights on purchases unseen, and distance-selling regulations. None of these rights apply if the product has been used, exceptions in the regulations are made for all kinds of reasons like hygiene/privacy/security and invoking your consumer rights does not entitle you to your shipping costs or return costs.

5th FAQ down on this which is local government advice to businesses, apparently if the return is within consumer law it is illegal to charge the fee, if they agree to accept a return outside of their legal obligations then they may choose to add the fee otherwise in that scenario they could just refuse the return ...................

Consumer rights - Advice to businesses (wigan.gov.uk)

 

[Vayra86]

Stop.

Think.

Imagine that they gave you a "sensible" return policy. That means they built the cost of returns into the price of goods...like other companies do. That would mean that instead of $400 for the pump you might spend $415...which isn't so bad for you. It is bad for the people who order, and discover the nearly 4% mark-up built into the cost of goods to pay for some idiot ordering wrong. You make the false statement that this is special....when the benefit is to uniformly decrease cost for everyone who doesn't require extra services.


Let me Americanize this. Imagine if a standard burger costs $5. Now, that standard is pickles, onions, lettuce, ketchup, and mustard. Now, imagine a custom burger is $7. You actually wind up with pickles, ketchup, and mustard only. Is this fair? Yes. It's requiring non-standard operations to be outlined, and increasing processing costs. Yes, you do get less...but the cost is in labor time not in resources. Most of your argument hinges on the false assumption that the vendor will eat this cost...and vendors that remain open do not eat these costs period. Please, think before you guys talk. This is you claiming that everyone should pay more to cover the cost of non-value added services, instead of the person causing the non-value added service to pay for it.


Alternatively, let me do this in nerd. You are quoted to write a program that does X. During the course of coding, you create said code, but the customer wants it to also do Y. You agreed to X, but Y is a logical extension of the code. By your argument that extra cost should be absorbed by the coder, and that price for an expanded feature set should be in the base quotation...which would make you less competitive. So...so you get it yet? My argument is that if you want more you should pay for it, instead of demanding everyone pays for part of it. None of this even touches on an outlined policy being agreed to, so it's just sour grapes about a stupid moment...but we can ignore that for the simpler answer that people providing a service should be paid. Period.



It's a fee to deal with your stupidity.

You have to pay for shipping.
You have to pay for receiving.
You have to pay to have the product inspected.
You have to have the product transacted back into the system.
You then have to reshelve and store the product.


If you guys don't get it, you are already paying for this. Go to your local retailers, and price compare mom&pop offerings to retailer chains. Those chain retailers build the price of a percentage of returns into their purchase cost...even if you don't see it you're paying for it. It's amazing that people cannot understand this in 2023...but if I can go to a wholesaler and buy the same thing for 10-20% cheaper than a retailer then something is being paid for...in this case it's overhead the wholesalers don't have on things like returns and specific types of labor.

Of course it should be part of the price of the product. You Americanized it, and thats exactly why we look at this differently: I believe in a collective approach to fixing problems. Carrying those problems on all shoulders is fair. We could all get a bad product anywhere. We all like to have sensible policies regarding the contracts we engage in. So yes, we all pay a very small fee to not have issues. In the end, in commerce it doesnt matter: competition still happens, also on price. It pushes on sellers in a positive way too: they prefer not having returns above the norm, because they would still be losing money - this encourages stocking quality product. Its a win-win scenario

 

[Chrispy_]

5th FAQ down on this which is local government advice to businesses, apparently if the return is within consumer law it is illegal to charge the fee, if they agree to accept a return outside of their legal obligations then they may choose to add the fee otherwise in that scenario they could just refuse the return ...................

Consumer rights - Advice to businesses (wigan.gov.uk)

Never trust local council information, most of the time it's out of date. In this instance, it's incomplete.

Online and distance selling

Rules for online and distance selling for businesses

www.gov.uk

It doesn't apply to items under £42 at all, and the returned item must be unopened. It's a right to cancel within 14 days, rather than a right to try something out, decide you don't like it, and get a full refund.

We're getting off-topic though, the only laws relevant to this thread are Canadian laws.

 

[Tatty_Two]

Yeah I knew about the £42, that applies to any distance selling and in part that is my point, if you do return a £41 item the retailer does not have to accept the return but if they do then they can apply the re-stocking fee, if the item is greater than that amount they cannot, I did say that they cannot charge a re-stocking fee for any returns where they are legally obligated to accept the return, outside that they can pretty much do what they want providing they make the consumer aware of that "clearly" at the point of purchase.